Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

You think we got it bad? Browns....

Collapse
X
Collapse
First Prev Next Last
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • You think we got it bad? Browns....

    Ok, so we all know how pathetic the Browns have been on and off the field. This draft they had mucho mucho picks and got some good reviews for once. But now here is what is happening:

    - During rookie minicamp, 4th round pick (CB) breaks his kneecap during a non contact drill. Gone for season, maybe just gone forever.
    - 6th round pick under investigation for assaulting a woman (its on tape reportedly) by doing the old Ray Rice - Mixon punch to the face
    - Jabril Peppers failed combine drug test and did not sign his participation paper for the mini camp until the second day. This means he missed first day of camp and also means he did not have to take a drug test. Smoke? Fire?

    TG
    Like, how am I a traitor? Your team are traitors.

  • #2
    You make your own luck. And I was scared off of Peppers early when he "failed" his drug test.
    Making the push

    Comment


    • #3
      Raiders have some risk too with their CB with the rape charge and they still drafted him high....maybe he checked out but i'm glad we stayed with high character guys. Seems like Raiders, Browns and Bengals can't stay away from the risky types.

      Comment


      • #4
        The Draft reminded me of:

        "I want my picks back, and I want David-God-Damn-Putney, just because I feel like it!"

        Comment


        • #5
          Unfortunately, that is the best memory browns fans have of their team.

          Comment


          • #6
            I forgot her name but she is a ESPN Cleveland reporter who is also an ex lingerie football player, claims that Jabril Peppers is constantly taking "Molly" and she's seen him on it first hand, not sure how credible she is because during her rant she said Joe Thomas takes Molly too, but was more so joking when saying it

            Comment


            • #7
              The Browns went back and looked at how other championship teams were built, and found that they can usually be traced to one big successful draft class. So they piled up a huge number of picks. Only real question is did they hit on them.

              On paper, their draft can't help but look good. They had sooooo many picks (followed by another good number of picks next year too). But it all comes down to what they do in the NFL. Brantley with the assualt, Peppers with the drugs.... I don't think you can knock the staff for the 4th rd guy breaking a kneecap, that is just bad luck. But whatever you think, the only thing that really matters is finding and getting players. Cleveland has had a ton of top picks over the last decade and have almost nothing to show for it. They have to get better players, develop them and keep them.

              If you look back at the dynasty drafts that propelled the Redskins under Joe Gibbs, the 49ers under Bill Walsh, or Steelers under Knoll .... those days the draft had a lot more rounds. When teams hit on players, they had that many picks every year. You needed a great draft to propell them to the upper levels, but every bad team had that potential every season, and there were still a lot of bad teams. Point is that just because Cleveland added a ton of picks, doesn't mean it will pan out for them. These days they need to get better at finding and developing talent. You can't afford to have years of bad draft picks and then fix it with one big offseason. There are too many holes. Even if Cleveland hits on every single guy, they are still a talent poor team. They need another big draft next season no matter how good this draft was/is.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Steve View Post
                The Browns went back and looked at how other championship teams were built, and found that they can usually be traced to one big successful draft class. So they piled up a huge number of picks. Only real question is did they hit on them.

                On paper, their draft can't help but look good. They had sooooo many picks (followed by another good number of picks next year too). But it all comes down to what they do in the NFL. Brantley with the assualt, Peppers with the drugs.... I don't think you can knock the staff for the 4th rd guy breaking a kneecap, that is just bad luck. But whatever you think, the only thing that really matters is finding and getting players. Cleveland has had a ton of top picks over the last decade and have almost nothing to show for it. They have to get better players, develop them and keep them.

                If you look back at the dynasty drafts that propelled the Redskins under Joe Gibbs, the 49ers under Bill Walsh, or Steelers under Knoll .... those days the draft had a lot more rounds. When teams hit on players, they had that many picks every year. You needed a great draft to propell them to the upper levels, but every bad team had that potential every season, and there were still a lot of bad teams. Point is that just because Cleveland added a ton of picks, doesn't mean it will pan out for them. These days they need to get better at finding and developing talent. You can't afford to have years of bad draft picks and then fix it with one big offseason. There are too many holes. Even if Cleveland hits on every single guy, they are still a talent poor team. They need another big draft next season no matter how good this draft was/is.
                Do you understand now why I laughed when they hired a guy who last worked for the NY Mets?

                How do you get good drafts when your top guy is a baseball man?
                sigpic

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Steve View Post
                  The Browns went back and looked at how other championship teams were built, and found that they can usually be traced to one big successful draft class. So they piled up a huge number of picks. Only real question is did they hit on them.

                  On paper, their draft can't help but look good. They had sooooo many picks (followed by another good number of picks next year too). But it all comes down to what they do in the NFL. Brantley with the assualt, Peppers with the drugs.... I don't think you can knock the staff for the 4th rd guy breaking a kneecap, that is just bad luck. But whatever you think, the only thing that really matters is finding and getting players. Cleveland has had a ton of top picks over the last decade and have almost nothing to show for it. They have to get better players, develop them and keep them.

                  If you look back at the dynasty drafts that propelled the Redskins under Joe Gibbs, the 49ers under Bill Walsh, or Steelers under Knoll .... those days the draft had a lot more rounds. When teams hit on players, they had that many picks every year. You needed a great draft to propell them to the upper levels, but every bad team had that potential every season, and there were still a lot of bad teams. Point is that just because Cleveland added a ton of picks, doesn't mean it will pan out for them. These days they need to get better at finding and developing talent. You can't afford to have years of bad draft picks and then fix it with one big offseason. There are too many holes. Even if Cleveland hits on every single guy, they are still a talent poor team. They need another big draft next season no matter how good this draft was/is.
                  Also takes the right head coach at the right time. Chargers had several good drafts from AJ, players then coached up by Marty and a lot of success. Once John Spanos had more input in selecting players and NOrv took over as HC the upwards trajectory reversed.
                  Chagras Got no barg!!!!!!!

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by floydefisher View Post

                    Do you understand now why I laughed when they hired a guy who last worked for the NY Mets?

                    How do you get good drafts when your top guy is a baseball man?
                    One of the things is that it is not clear who is running the Cleveland draft. DePodesta is probably much more of a football guy then their GM. DePodesta at least played college football, and has watched film, breaking down mechanics in baseball (he is not just an analytics guy). Sasha Brown, their GM, is a lawyer, and has no background in personnel in any sport.

                    I think DePodesta could be a good hire, depending on how much he really is an progressive thinker.

                    The problem with so many analytics guys is they think strictly in terms of statistics. Statistics is a useful branch of study to discover thing, but as a scientist, when I have a question to be answered (how to make my team better), I can't just assume the answer is going to come from statistics. You come up with a hypothesis, you test the hypothesis and that doesn't necessarily mean statistics is involved.

                    Baseball is studied with statistics, because everyone's fundamentals are pretty solid and you get enough reps to have meaningful statistics. But in football, you need to think in terms of leverage, technique, mechanics. You only get enough reps if you take seasons and seasons of data, so stats is the wrong tool to answer the questions that need to be answered. Players fundamentals are being developed for much of a players early career. And players depend too much on one another to be able to separate their performances to be evaluated separately. Can you judge a RB performance by his stats if the back is being tackled as soon as he gets the handoff, by DL and LB who are in the backfield untouched?

                    Only time will tell on the Browns. But the thing that will fix their team is they need to find and develop draft picks. EVERY team in the NFL needs to do that if they want to be successful.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Steve View Post

                      One of the things is that it is not clear who is running the Cleveland draft. DePodesta is probably much more of a football guy then their GM. DePodesta at least played college football, and has watched film, breaking down mechanics in baseball (he is not just an analytics guy). Sasha Brown, their GM, is a lawyer, and has no background in personnel in any sport.

                      I think DePodesta could be a good hire, depending on how much he really is an progressive thinker.

                      The problem with so many analytics guys is they think strictly in terms of statistics. Statistics is a useful branch of study to discover thing, but as a scientist, when I have a question to be answered (how to make my team better), I can't just assume the answer is going to come from statistics. You come up with a hypothesis, you test the hypothesis and that doesn't necessarily mean statistics is involved.

                      Baseball is studied with statistics, because everyone's fundamentals are pretty solid and you get enough reps to have meaningful statistics. But in football, you need to think in terms of leverage, technique, mechanics. You only get enough reps if you take seasons and seasons of data, so stats is the wrong tool to answer the questions that need to be answered. Players fundamentals are being developed for much of a players early career. And players depend too much on one another to be able to separate their performances to be evaluated separately. Can you judge a RB performance by his stats if the back is being tackled as soon as he gets the handoff, by DL and LB who are in the backfield untouched?

                      Only time will tell on the Browns. But the thing that will fix their team is they need to find and develop draft picks. EVERY team in the NFL needs to do that if they want to be successful.
                      I may be wrong, but IIRC, analytics measures different things in each sport. Baseball for example is measuring things like batting average with runners in scoring position. In basketball, it's how many loose balls you dive after, and other hustle stats (pioneered by Pat Riley of the Miami Heat). Don't know what they measure in football, but it's a totally different breed of animal, so the stats they wish to collect are going to be different as well.

                      I doubt DePodesta's expertise in baseball analytics is going to transfer over real well. I wish him luck, but I think something like this would be better handled by someone with actual pro football expertise, which he lacks.
                      sigpic

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        It depends on who you ask.

                        A purist would probably tell you that analytics is about using scientific inquiry to answer questions you have about the game.

                        A lot of the football stats people, media type mostly, are trying to make football analytics about statsitics. That is because they want to be able to use the same tools as were used for baseball, and so much baseball analytics was done using not too much more than box scores. Using the line from Moneyball (the movie), boiling things down to just one number (statistic).

                        Football has been doing analytics for a long time, if you exclude statistics. That goes back to Paul Brown, and Steve Belichick in the 1950's, back to the infancy of football scouting and creating game plans. Just the idea of film STUDY tells it all. They answer questions they have by studying film, which makes sense. It's hard to generalize (which is what statistics is) anything even from a large sample size unless you can break down the number of independent variables. Because there are so many things happening at once, and so many different causes, you can collect the greatest and most sophisticated measuring scheme known to man, I still don't think there is that much to be learned in football that is statistical in nature.

                        Maybe I have a different view of it as a physical scientist. When I am faced by a problem at work, usually the first thing I do is rework it into a hypothesis. You have to let the question dictate the methods. So many of the analytics people I keep hearing and reading about (in all fields not just sports analytics) just keep heading to statsitics, thinking that is what all scientific inquiry is about. But in the physical sciences, so much of what we do doesn't include statistics. You just have to be careful and not try and use the wrong tool for the job. Too many analytics types are like my mother-in-law's carpentry skills. The only tool she has is a hammer, so every time she tries to fix something, it tends to turn into driving nails.

                        Depodesta was in Oakland when they started Moneyball, and he has also played football at a fairly high level. He is a smart guy, so I think he should be able to figure out how to answer the questions that they are facing. In fact, that is usually the key, based on my work experience. Figuring out the questions. is often the hardest part. I think he can give them a lot of insights from a high level.

                        I agree, I think if they brought him in to do a lot of the really low level, this is how we are going to be drafting players, then DePodesta is probably the wrong guy. But no one really knows what Sasha Brown is doing as the GM. No one knows what DePodesta's duties are. THey are being very, very tight lipped on the whole thing (who does what).

                        THe one thing that does seem troubling from the Browns point of view is that they are in the process of switching to a more analytics driven approach. However, last season, with one of the least talented rosters in football, they let a couple of guys go who could have helped, only to have them play well for better teams. Taylor Gabriel is the guy who comes to mind, but there were a couple of guys. Presumably the point of switching to analytics to be objective and make sure you consider every player as objectively as possible, but then you cut the 5'-8", 167 lb WR who goes on and sparks an offense to the SB.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Every team does analytics to a degree. It is nothing new or unique. Gil Brandt was doing it decades ago which lead to Blesto, which a lot of teams subscribed to and still do today.

                          What would trouble me if I were a Browns fan is the inconsistency. For example, year one of Sashi et, al: let young 4th year players like Benjamin, Mitchell Schwartz, Gibson, etc go. These were drafted players that the Browns invested in a developed. Gibson was a pro bowler. The Browns had tons of cash. They didn't even make offers. Analytics tell them to draft a physically limited but smart and accurate QB (Kessler) and he will be their starter of the future. Browns say no more drafting players with off the field issues after Manziel, Bryant, etc disappointed them.

                          Year two: Browns sign Kirksey to a big second contract, they let their pro bowl TE go because he is over 30 then sign McCorty who is over 30. They let Pryor walk for the same money they gave to the guy they signed from the Titans. Analytics tell them to draft a physically talented but football intelligence/accuracy limited QB and he will be their starter of the future (Kizer). Browns draft one guy with a drug flag (Peppers) and another who was being accused of punching a woman in the face shortly before the draft (DE whose name I cannot recall right now).

                          Good teams have a philosophy that drives a plan and they stick with it. Bad teams reinvent their philosophy and develop a new plan (and fire and hire head coaches) almost every year. Good teams have someone who is clearly in charge. Bad teams have confusing front offices (remember the Chargers pre-Butler? There were THREE guys all in charge). Browns results on the field are a reflection of them off the field.

                          TG
                          Like, how am I a traitor? Your team are traitors.

                          Comment

                          Working...
                          X