2018 Free Agency

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  • Steve
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    • Jun 2013
    • 6839
    • South Carolina
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    #25
    Originally posted by Boltjolt View Post

    Oh yeah. Well I'd tender Tyrell for sure and McCain but not sure I'd tender Phillips that high. I don't know what the salary would be for those tenders though. Can't they just sign them to like two or three year deals? That would help the cap. They don't have to give them RFA deals do they?
    1st round - $4,152,000
    2nd round - $2,916,000
    Original round/right of first refusal - $1,908,000 Base Salary Cap: $178,000,000 / 51 players = $3.49 million per player.

    Why would they sign a longer deal? You only sign a longer deal if the player doesn't think he can get better deal. They are better off playing for the RFA tender and betting on themselves next offseason. If they don't sign the tender now, they are free to shop themselves around. And teams are looking for nickel/dime LB types who can play in the box and upgrade the team speed. I'm not against signing him to a longer deal, but I think he needs to show me a bit more before I give him a bigger deal. To me Phillips needs to play our the tender. If he plays well again, he will get a bigger deal from someone. He isn't going to break the bank, but he is quality player in today's NFL. He is the 11th starter on D, he should get paid like it.


    Before anyone gets too down on Phillips, lets remember that even though he missed half of the KC game, part of the Jets game and all of the 2nd Oakland game, he still had more snaps than any of our LB (he played 518 defensive snaps vs Brown at 505). Phillips had 63 tackles (50 solo, 13 assists), 2 int, and a fumble recovery. And while everyone likes to think that the D took the big step up when Perryman came back, we were already winning games. We started getting turnovers in the Giants game, which is when we started Phillips as Will/Dime DB. He is a starter and in terms of how and when the D started to function, he is big part of our defensive success.

    That being said, I think we can upgrade that spot. I would not be against trying to get Jenkins on the field in his place, or using Jenkins at SS and Addae at Will/Dime DB (it's really a very similar position). Bring one or more S into the mix and let them compete. The one thing we know for sure, Phillips is a dreadful FS, especially the way we ask our FS to play in the deep middle now. He CANNOT play FS. But let's make whoever we bring in win the job. If all he does is add depth and plays on ST, then fine. I think he would beat our most of the rookie S types we bring in.

    The point with tendering is that we get nothing in exchange for him if we don't. He is a starting player on a good D, he deserves to get something, and even a 2nd round tender is a below average player, let alone a below average starter.

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    • Steve
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      • Jun 2013
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      • South Carolina
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      #26
      Originally posted by Formula 21 View Post

      An excellent group. Interesting that Vea is missing.
      I keep going back and forth about him. I am probably just hung up on the shitty coaching he got at Washington. Vea basically lets himself get blocked. NFL DL try to hit the hole and prevent the OL from blocking them, but Vea makes no effort to fire out. Since the entire Washington DL does this (and has for a few years now), I have to think it is something they teach. They have a collection of huge, massively strong players and they don't give up a lot of ground. They also line up in an OL stance, so they don't really fire off the line. They look like they are catching the OL and just standing them up.

      The issue I have is that once they let themselves be blocked, the washington DL then reads the play and throws off the OL and chases the play down. They are actually incredibly athletic players for their size. I just don't understand why they don't try and fire off out of a sprinters stance (staggering their feet like a sprinter in the starting blocks), fire off and control the gap or player in front of them. If you have big, physical OL who can shed blocks, why not make the plays at the line or in the backfield?

      When he is allowed to 1 gap, he actually just drives the OL into the backfield. He might be the next Haloti Ngata, which would be great. Big, physical guy who is fast and quick enough to make plays with power or quickness. Or he can be like a lot of former 1st round DL who are great athletes who are projects who never develop.

      Personally, I would rather have a guy like Payne who has good technique and actually is productve, instead of a planet person who has the potential to dominate but hasn't figured it out (yet?).

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      • Formula 21
        The Future is Now
        • Jun 2013
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        • Republic of San Diego
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        #27
        Last edited by Formula 21; 02-13-2018, 09:18 PM.
        Now, if you excuse me, I have some Charger memories to suppress.
        The Wasted Decade is done.
        Build Back Better.

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        • Steve
          Administrator
          • Jun 2013
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          • South Carolina
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          #28
          I hope for players like him to stink up the joint, but they don't all that often.

          I think Hurst is going to be a surprisingly good run defender. There are a lot of plays where it looks like the OL has him, but never seems to get leverage on him, and Hurst makes a play, or at least blows up the play and someone else does. Even if he is just a penetration guy, there is no rule that prevents a DT from penetrating into the backfield and tackling a RB for a loss. That is a big part of why we don't try to run more, and if we had that kind of player who creates negative running plays, it would force other teams to call plays against us differently.

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          • Boltjolt
            Dont let the PBs fool ya
            • Jun 2013
            • 26257
            • Henderson, NV
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            #29
            Ok and I get that but they can't tender McCain 4.1 million. He is a part time player. That is a bit high for Tyrell too but he is very productive and makes big plays and WRs make more that are productive. Id be fine giving Tyrell the first round tender. McCain the second. Just not sure id give Phillips the second for 2.9 million but I'll let the coaches decide if they feel Jenkins can fill that role while they draft another.

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            • Formula 21
              The Future is Now
              • Jun 2013
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              #30
              Now, if you excuse me, I have some Charger memories to suppress.
              The Wasted Decade is done.
              Build Back Better.

              Comment

              • Steve
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                • Jun 2013
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                • South Carolina
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                #31
                Both offers are very comparative. I don't think either is overpaying at all.

                Established vets (typically) get more than the tender values and scrubs get far less. The other point is these are one-year deals. They don't have long-term implications. They are low to zero risk. Sure, if they don't play well, you have wasted money. But that is always true, and with RFA contracts, at the end of the year, we can walk away. There is no dead money and no long-term implication.

                Paying the tender values for a year is the whole point of them. Many younger players have not performed yet. the idea is to let the team that helped develop the player get them at a reasonable rate WITHOUT having to overpay. I see the tender values as fair market value.

                I guess I just see value differently than other people do.

                As far as McCain, he is a situational pass rusher. To some that says, part-time player. To me that says a player that has a rare and highly valued skill. Pass rushers get paid a lot for a reason. You aren't going to be successful on defense if the QB sits back and has all day to throw. When Ingram and Bosa had to play full time, without a 3rd player rotating between the 2 DE spots, their production dropped like a rock. If you look historically, and this past season, teams that don't have depth at edge rusher don't consistently get pressure on the QB. The money we spend on Ingram and Bosa is of less value if we don't keep adding other pass rushers. Pass rushing is a group activity and the price of playing good D.

                We can try and replace McCain with a draft pick, but even a higher pick is probably a year or two away from being productive. That is a big part of why pass rushers get paid so much. That may start to come down, because there are more and better pass rushers coming out of college than before, but there is no one in this years draft who is probably going to be as productive as McCain is right now. THere are a lot of other players who might be close and have more upside (Chubb?), but even he has a lot to learn about being an NFL pass rusher.

                The other way to look at RFA is if you can get a player as good as them in the round that you would get. This is really more of a thought process with the guys who get the original round tenders. The Redskins got him for a an original round pick, rather than risk it on a guy in the draft. Since all teams have to do is spend money, there are going to be teams who will risk a relatively short contract with a fairly big bonus and they would have McCain and/or T. Williams and then we get nothing in return. At WR, we at least have M. Williams in the wings, but we have nothing in terms of pass rusher. The only even pseudo alternative is to keep Attaochu, and that is a bad idea if he is forced into such a prominent role (I want Attaochu back, just not as the 3rd guy in a 3 man rotation).

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                • Panamamike
                  Registered Charger Fan
                  • Jun 2013
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                  #32
                  Originally posted by Steve View Post

                  1). Hurst, DT Michigan - not necessarily the best player in the draft, but he would make the pass rush a lot stronger by flushing the game to Ingram and Bosa. he is also a much better run defender than a lot of the arm chair scouts think.
                  2). Quentin Nelson, OG, ND - I think he is the best OG I have seen in college. Is amazing at helping the players out around him, and still dominates his own man. McGlinchy owes him about half his rookie signing bonus for as much as Nelson helps him out.
                  3). DaRon Payne, NT, Alabama - Has enough speed to play the draws, and contain on stunts, while pushing the pocket some. Big kid who plays with leverage and has good hand use.
                  4). Billy Price, C, OSU - Great zone blocker and very, very good at down blocks to allow the pulling OG to get out to pull and lead the running game. Would be the ideal fit to make our inside run game work. Also is really good at recovering when a guy gets a step on him.
                  5). Derwin James, S, FSU - can push Addae, Phillips and/or Boston. I keep seeing people talking about us adding a LB to counter Hunt (KC), but really, James is the kind of player we need to do that.
                  6). James Daniel,C, Iowa - Another athletic guy who could anchor the C position for a long time.

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                  • Steve
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                    • Jun 2013
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                    • South Carolina
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                    #33
                    Based on his ability, yeah, Nelson is long gone at #17. The only thing we have going for us is that the OG position throws people loopy sometimes. Some teams have a real issue with taking a OG "too high". I get it, I just don't agree with it. I think what I was trying to say is that I would take him if he fell, or if I could do some kind of loss cost package together to move up. Nelson is the best OL in the draft by a wide margin, even if he is not at a position of need (OG).

                    Traditionally, the first C usually gets picks in the low teens or high 20's. I think he will probably go in the late 1st round, and probably the same with Price, although Price could go a bit higher. The wild card is that the OT class is just not strong at the top of the draft. The guys there have plenty of talent, but the technique is just not as good as in the past.

                    The biggest thing I have against your logic is that adding a rookie OL is probably not going to lead to more consistency. Yes, there are occasionally a rookie OL who comes in and plays unbelievably and really solidifies a position. That is rare.

                    Usually, rookies struggle a bit and then finally settle down and hold that position for a long time. I am not disagreeing that adding someone at RT is not a goal. Just short term, rookies are just an inconsistent or more (on average) than Barksdale. Maybe Barksdale can get the help he needs and fixes that, but a rookie is probably not the "short term" answer. Long term (thinking next season and beyond), yes, it would help (presumably). And Barksdale is 30, so we need to start at least thinking about moving on, even if we don't pull the trigger this season.

                    The big knock I have on Brown is that is not nearly as good a run blocker as most people think. I do think he is a better pass blocker than some think, but as soon as NFL teams realize that Brown has trouble moving and hitting a moving target, they are going to align so that he has to move on every block. I think he is more of a project that people think.

                    This IS an exciting offseason. Unlike some other teams, we have relatively few needs, and the resources to address most, if not all of them. And a realistic shot too. It's not like the only thing holding us back is a LT, since there aren't any ready to go. There are FA options, street guys (or there will be when teams clear up cap space), and rookies via the draft.

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                    • Steve
                      Administrator
                      • Jun 2013
                      • 6839
                      • South Carolina
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                      #34
                      I just noticed on Over the cap (https://overthecap.com/salary-cap/los-angeles-chargers/) there is a mistake on the Chargers cap number.

                      They have Kyle Emmanuel's cap number at $1,959,643, which is incorrect. It should be $759,643, which means we have an additional $1.2 million. Only enough for 1 league min player, but still.

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                    • Formula 21
                      The Future is Now
                      • Jun 2013
                      • 16189
                      • Republic of San Diego
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                      #35
                      2018 Free Agency Preview: Los Angeles ChargersDenzel Perryman struggled to get and stay on the field, as did first-round draft pick WR Mike Williams. As has been the story for many years for this franchise, the offensive line struggled, and while G Dan Feeney is young and inexperienced enough to still hope for continued growth, only T Russell Okung played well enough to not warrant a second look this offseason. This issue was not helped when second-round pick Forrest Lamp was lost to an ACL injury before the season started.

                      There were plenty of positives for the Chargers, however, as WR Keenan AllenJoey Bosa paired with Melvin Ingram gave the Bolts the best pass-rushing duo in the NFL. With players like Lamp, Perryman, and Jason Verrett looking forward to a hopefully healthy 2018, a couple improvements to the offensive line and interior of the defense would make both units strong enough to launch the Chargers into serious contention.

                      Salary cap room


                      $23,762,546 (18th in the NFL, as of 02/15/2018) Biggest Needs
                      • Offensive line
                      • Interior defender
                      • Linebacker
                      • Kicker
                      • Safety


                      Notable free agents

                      Must re-sign


                      Tre Boston, S, 81.4 overall gradeJaheel Addae and Rayshawn Jenkins, that latter of whom they drafted last year. Dream splash signing


                      Lamarcus Joyner, S, Los Angeles RamsNigel Bradham, LB, Philadelphia Eagles

                      The Chargers spent the season looking for real solutions at linebacker with Perryman on the shelf for most of the campaign. It showed in their run defense primarily, but they also never found a quality running mate for Perryman in nickel defense. Hayes Pullard struggled, Jatavis BrownKorey Toomer was bringing to the table. Nigel BradhamKareem Hunt and Travis Kelce, a player like Bradham is extremely valuable.

                      John Sullivan, C, Denver Broncos

                      With Dan Feeney and Forrest Lamp looking set to be 2018 starters, the interior of the offensive line could use both an upgrade and veteran leadership. While the Chargers could pursue a guard and move Feeney to center, the simplest answer would be landing a center like Sullivan or Ryan Jensen. Sullivan is the older of the two players, but he also had a higher run-blocking grade last year and did so in a rushing offense with more in common with the Chargers than Jensen, according to the PFF Rushing Report. Sullivan also has 5,000-plus snaps more than Jensen, and all that experience would come in handy with a pair of very young guards on either side of center, so the Chargers might be better off with Sullivan as a short-term replacement.
                      Now, if you excuse me, I have some Charger memories to suppress.
                      The Wasted Decade is done.
                      Build Back Better.

                      Comment

                      • bonehead
                        Undrafted
                        • Jul 2013
                        • 5209
                        • TBD
                        • Retired
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                        #36
                        Originally posted by Steve View Post
                        Based on his ability, yeah, Nelson is long gone at #17. The only thing we have going for us is that the OG position throws people loopy sometimes. Some teams have a real issue with taking a OG "too high". I get it, I just don't agree with it. I think what I was trying to say is that I would take him if he fell, or if I could do some kind of loss cost package together to move up. Nelson is the best OL in the draft by a wide margin, even if he is not at a position of need (OG).

                        Traditionally, the first C usually gets picks in the low teens or high 20's. I think he will probably go in the late 1st round, and probably the same with Price, although Price could go a bit higher. The wild card is that the OT class is just not strong at the top of the draft. The guys there have plenty of talent, but the technique is just not as good as in the past.

                        The biggest thing I have against your logic is that adding a rookie OL is probably not going to lead to more consistency. Yes, there are occasionally a rookie OL who comes in and plays unbelievably and really solidifies a position. That is rare.

                        Usually, rookies struggle a bit and then finally settle down and hold that position for a long time. I am not disagreeing that adding someone at RT is not a goal. Just short term, rookies are just an inconsistent or more (on average) than Barksdale. Maybe Barksdale can get the help he needs and fixes that, but a rookie is probably not the "short term" answer. Long term (thinking next season and beyond), yes, it would help (presumably). And Barksdale is 30, so we need to start at least thinking about moving on, even if we don't pull the trigger this season.

                        The big knock I have on Brown is that is not nearly as good a run blocker as most people think. I do think he is a better pass blocker than some think, but as soon as NFL teams realize that Brown has trouble moving and hitting a moving target, they are going to align so that he has to move on every block. I think he is more of a project that people think.

                        This IS an exciting offseason. Unlike some other teams, we have relatively few needs, and the resources to address most, if not all of them. And a realistic shot too. It's not like the only thing holding us back is a LT, since there aren't any ready to go. There are FA options, street guys (or there will be when teams clear up cap space), and rookies via the draft.
                        Well if they do draft Nelson they almost have to move Feeney to Center of Lamp to RT
                        Forget it Donny you're out of your element

                        Shut the fuck up Donny

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