Who's in on Ndamukong Suh?

[Boltjolt]

The Tyrod signing is looking sillier by the minute IMO. A serious waste of cap space, assuming we are "all in it to win it". Perhaps we aren't in TT's mind.

It says two things. They realized Geno and Cardale were shit, and they don't like the QBs in this draft for even reliable backups for next year.

They were paying Clemens over 3 mil and Tyrod is a lot better than Clemens was. I'm good with his signing for the just in case scenario to Rivers. Tyrod can win for us, Geno can't.

[Steve]

The Tyrod signing is looking sillier by the minute IMO. A serious waste of cap space, assuming we are "all in it to win it". Perhaps we aren't in TT's mind.

What other FA could we have spent that money on that would have been a big impact?

The problem with FA is very average players are getting huge deals. Taylor is a borderline starter and we are paying him backup money, so it seems like money well spent. You do always have the chance that you spend money on a backup and then never use them, so that is somewhat of a risk.

Certainly overspending for average to below average players is not going to propel the Chargers to the SB. If anything, it probably has the opposite effect.

[Budsman]

What other FA could we have spent that money on that would have been a big impact?

The problem with FA is very average players are getting huge deals. Taylor is a borderline starter and we are paying him backup money, so it seems like money well spent. You do always have the chance that you spend money on a backup and then never use them, so that is somewhat of a risk.

Certainly overspending for average to below average players is not going to propel the Chargers to the SB. If anything, it probably has the opposite effect.

Haha Clinton Dix, Philon who is homemgrown and has improved every year. Packaged with what little money we have left for a deal with Suh. There are lots of options and I actually like him as a backup.

[21&500]

Spending significant money on a solid veteran, backup qb is a win-now move.

[beachcomber]

personally suspect that Philon was going to be the odd man out, as it more likely that we sign the one or both of Square and/or Liuget before Darius ??

[Steve]

https://cardswire.usatoday.com/2019/03/21/darius-philon-contract-az-arizona-cardinals/

2-year deal
$4 mill signing bonus
This year's salary fully guaranteed at $1 mill - cap charge of $3 mill this season.
Next year $500k roster bonus in March
Salary year 2 is $4.5 mill
total cap hit year 2 of $7 million Costs them $2 mill if they cut him next season

It's not a bad deal for Phillon, but given his fit to the 34, it doesn't seem like that great a deal for Az.

The $3 mill part this year is pretty good. Not a bad salary for a backup DT who is moderately productive. 2017 4.5 sacks, 31 tackles, 7TFL, 9QB hits 2018 4.0 sacks, 33 tackles, 7TFL, 9QB hits

The bigger issue is we just plain need more production from our DT.

Tyrod Taylor is a marginal starter who is much better suited to be a backup. He also gives us a mobile QB to practice against. The money spent on him would not have helped us sign anyone worth noting. It might have worked for signing Phillon, but then we would still need a backup QB. If we hadn't signed Taylor, we would be stuck with another Geno Smith-ish type of guy. HE is barely acceptable for running the practice team, let alone if he had to play. We still came out ahead on this one, no matter what some people said.

[Steve]

Haha Clinton Dix, Philon who is homemgrown and has improved every year. Packaged with what little money we have left for a deal with Suh. There are lots of options and I actually like him as a backup.

Clinton Dix has played badly the last 2 years. He has been passed over by 2 teams desperate for secondary help, and that doesn't even address the fact he doesn't play FS very well.

Taylor is a bit more expensive than Phillon (by $500k), but if we had signed Phillon, we would still have to sign a vet QB, which means we probably have to pay at least $1 mill, so we actually come out $500k poorer. Plus, Phillon is only a guy you can rotate, not a featured guy. I don't think it really does anything with our DL situation.

We are not seriously going after Suh. If we do, it is going to be because he is getting a lot less than $14 mill he got last year, and I seem to remember he was only willing to do it because he felt like he was giving the Rams a discount to help them make a serious push for a championship. I don't think he is willing to play that cheap again.

If Suh does, the fact that we have a quality backup is going to count a lot more than some Geno Smith-ish guy, and a little extra cash.

[richpjr]

Given the limited cap space we had entering the off season and the number of depth players we needed to sign, we simply didn't have the money to make a splash in free agency. Signing depth or rent a vet type players is not particularly exciting, but necessary.

[Budsman]

Clinton Dix has played badly the last 2 years. He has been passed over by 2 teams desperate for secondary help, and that doesn't even address the fact he doesn't play FS very well.


Taylor is a bit more expensive than Phillon (by $500k), but if we had signed Phillon, we would still have to sign a vet QB, which means we probably have to pay at least $1 mill, so we actually come out $500k poorer. Plus, Phillon is only a guy you can rotate, not a featured guy. I don't think it really does anything with our DL situation.

We are not seriously going after Suh. If we do, it is going to be because he is getting a lot less than $14 mill he got last year, and I seem to remember he was only willing to do it because he felt like he was giving the Rams a discount to help them make a serious push for a championship. I don't think he is willing to play that cheap again.

If Suh does, the fact that we have a quality backup is going to count a lot more than some Geno Smith-ish guy, and a little extra cash.

Im not sure which player you're thinking of but Haha has not had two bad years. By his standards 2017 was a bad year but he 79 tackles and 3 interceptions which matches his 2016 pro bowl year in tackles and is just 2 less interceptions.

Last year he he showed his versatility and played some SS had and had 93 tackles and 3 interceptions.

https://www.pro-football-reference.c...C/ClinHa00.htm

He has played fs for most of his career and he has versatility to play ss like Bradley likes. Oh and he has started all of his game since his rookie year when he started 10. He's a clear upgrade over anything on our roster and unless telesco wants to gamble on a rookie in the draft better than anything left on the market.


Philon may be a rotational guy but that's exactly what you need at dt. Sure it would be great to have 4 every down defensive lineman but that's a pipe dream. DTs are huge guys who wear down over a game and Philon has proven to be a talented pass rusher who was developing into a very good role player.

Sure we we would have had to have someone else at backup Qb and pay them, and I'm sure Taylor is a better option than most but Philon would make a bigger impact than Taylor unless Rivers goes down (knock on wood). If that, heaven forbid, happens if it's just a few games then I trust this run game and defense to step up no matter who is back there. If it's long term then no doubt Taylor will be worth it. If it were me I would have preferred a trade for Rosen if he's available. A young talented player on a cheap contract who can develop behind one of the best. His biggest negative is attitude and well sitting behind a future hall of famer will settle that right down.

As for Suh, he didn't get snatched up, which tells me his asking price is too high. He may have to come down and the Chargers could or could have made a play for him. Im not sure it's the best idea but it's definately more impactful than a backup qb.

I would prefer we kick the tires on Ed Reed if he's still got anything left. He will be hungry to prove himself and you don't bet against people like Reed when they are hungry.

[Steve]

Im not sure which player you're thinking of but Haha has not had two bad years. By his standards 2017 was a bad year but he 79 tackles and 3 interceptions which matches his 2016 pro bowl year in tackles and is just 2 less interceptions.

Last year he he showed his versatility and played some SS had and had 93 tackles and 3 interceptions.

https://www.pro-football-reference.c...C/ClinHa00.htm

He has played fs for most of his career and he has versatility to play ss like Bradley likes. Oh and he has started all of his game since his rookie year when he started 10. He's a clear upgrade over anything on our roster and unless telesco wants to gamble on a rookie in the draft better than anything left on the market.


Philon may be a rotational guy but that's exactly what you need at dt. Sure it would be great to have 4 every down defensive lineman but that's a pipe dream. DTs are huge guys who wear down over a game and Philon has proven to be a talented pass rusher who was developing into a very good role player.

Sure we we would have had to have someone else at backup Qb and pay them, and I'm sure Taylor is a better option than most but Philon would make a bigger impact than Taylor unless Rivers goes down (knock on wood). If that, heaven forbid, happens if it's just a few games then I trust this run game and defense to step up no matter who is back there. If it's long term then no doubt Taylor will be worth it. If it were me I would have preferred a trade for Rosen if he's available. A young talented player on a cheap contract who can develop behind one of the best. His biggest negative is attitude and well sitting behind a future hall of famer will settle that right down.

As for Suh, he didn't get snatched up, which tells me his asking price is too high. He may have to come down and the Chargers could or could have made a play for him. Im not sure it's the best idea but it's definitely more impactful than a backup qb.

I would prefer we kick the tires on Ed Reed if he's still got anything left. He will be hungry to prove himself and you don't bet against people like Reed when they are hungry.

I watched him play. A lot. Dix missed tackles, had blown assignments, gambling on going for the ball and missing. His stats are OK, but stats don't show the plays he allowed, and they are considerable. Ask Packers and Redskins fans. 2 of the people I watch football most are a Redskins and Packers fans. He is not the kind of player who projects well as a single high FS. He can play some FS ina regular D< but we play a very specific scheme, and he lacks the range and timing to make the plays. His missed tackles make him an even bigger liability than Boston did, although they both share a talent for taking some bad angles. With Dix, it is because he is very aggressive and like to overrun plays, with Boston, it is because he is tentative and like to slow play everything.

Everyone keeps pointing to the "this SS type is a good player, so let's try him at FS because they have to be better than Addae" argument.
1). There are a lot of single high FS teams now (Seattle, Atlanta, SF, Chargers, GB some, Rams some, Jacksonville), buit none of those teams just jump at every guy on the block. That should tell people something.
2). We tried that with Addae last year. He has had some success in his career as a traditional deep S, but was simply awful. This past season he was coming off his best season of his career (2 years ago). How is just throwing in a player out of position not making the same mistake?
3). There is an argument to be made that we need to do it with someone eventually, if we can't find the best player. There is some merit, but it is still very, very early. If we spend a ton of money on a FA, then our hands are tied and we have to play the failure in waiting, which means it shuts down our options.
4). If we do sign someone who is less than ideal, we don't need to screw up our salary cap just because we want to overpay for a former name player, like Ha-Ha Clinton Dix (or the other cast of dozens out there). And signing a guy late, at a very reasonable contract doesn't prevent us from starting Watkins or Jenkins, who right now look like they are just as rasonable options as anyone we could get for a whole lot more money.

James is our SS. In our D, the SS is the matchup guy. If we move James back to FS, then he is not longer the matchup king, which is why he is so great. If we had a FS and thought we can fix some of the issues with Dix, then maybe. But overpaying for players who are marginal skill sets doesn't usually work out well. The Bears are reaching and I think his future performance will show it. It usually does. FA is a losing proposition, no matter the position.

Suh's asking price is too high, but that doesn't mean he is going to budge. A lot of players assume that they have the teams where they want them if they wait and circumstances change. He certainly won't until after the draft. Even then, he may well try to wait and maximize his value with either an injury or some 1st round failure to be falling flat in TC. Either way, NFL locker rooms are full of guys who all think they are way better than they are.

Rodney Gunter is a player who can be had for about the same amount (I imagine as Philon), plays both the 3 tech and NT spots, and has upside considering his lack of playing time, after having been buried on the Cards depth chart the last few years. Again, not worth spending a ton, but his stats were better last year than Philon, and he has not played as much (either snaps or seasons). It is just a matter of getting the right deal done.

Philon is a fair player. Locker rooms are full of players who can be had with his ability level. The draft is full of them. There are still FA with at least his level of production. I don't see the hurry or the need to overpay. He does have some ability, but in 2 years of extensive playing time, he has not really developed much. He still is pretty invisible. He makes some plays, but not that many. We need better production.

Philon will make more of a impact (I hope) than Taylor will. I hope Taylor makes no impact this season. You always hope that, but you buy insurance anyway. If Rivers is going to miss even part of 1 game, we need a fall back option.

For the money we paid Taylor, which is simply not that much, we aren't going to get a better backup. $3.5 million is not even top backup money, and Taylor is a borderline starter. Taylor does add some value in terms of the ability to run better practices, and that is hard to quantify. However, Taylor is getting just over vet min money, so there is not much value to be had. To save any more salary cap space than we have, we are back to the Geno Smith caliber. There are a lot of guys at that level, which is to say so bad that if they had to play, we don't have a chance to win if they play.

The Cards are still looking for 1st and 2nd round value for Rosen. They will look like idiots if they move Rosen for so little. And, any team that takes Rosen for 1st or 2n round value will look like idiots for jumping now. It is a case of everyone just waiting it out. Which is fine. We aren't out of the Rosen running. But no one is being reasonable, and there is no reason to think it will be that way until at least the draft is over. Maybe if there is some other wheeling and dealing on draft day, but I don't see us being part of that.

Ed Reed is retired and has been for some time. There is no way he can play, if for no other reason the Ravens still own his rights as a player. If we can use him, it is as a coach, since both he and Lynn coached together in Buffalo in 2016.

[Budsman]

I watched him play. A lot. Dix missed tackles, had blown assignments, gambling on going for the ball and missing. His stats are OK, but stats don't show the plays he allowed, and they are considerable. Ask Packers and Redskins fans. 2 of the people I watch football most are a Redskins and Packers fans. He is not the kind of player who projects well as a single high FS. He can play some FS ina regular D< but we play a very specific scheme, and he lacks the range and timing to make the plays. His missed tackles make him an even bigger liability than Boston did, although they both share a talent for taking some bad angles. With Dix, it is because he is very aggressive and like to overrun plays, with Boston, it is because he is tentative and like to slow play everything.

Everyone keeps pointing to the "this SS type is a good player, so let's try him at FS because they have to be better than Addae" argument.
1). There are a lot of single high FS teams now (Seattle, Atlanta, SF, Chargers, GB some, Rams some, Jacksonville), buit none of those teams just jump at every guy on the block. That should tell people something.
2). We tried that with Addae last year. He has had some success in his career as a traditional deep S, but was simply awful. This past season he was coming off his best season of his career (2 years ago). How is just throwing in a player out of position not making the same mistake?
3). There is an argument to be made that we need to do it with someone eventually, if we can't find the best player. There is some merit, but it is still very, very early. If we spend a ton of money on a FA, then our hands are tied and we have to play the failure in waiting, which means it shuts down our options.
4). If we do sign someone who is less than ideal, we don't need to screw up our salary cap just because we want to overpay for a former name player, like Ha-Ha Clinton Dix (or the other cast of dozens out there). And signing a guy late, at a very reasonable contract doesn't prevent us from starting Watkins or Jenkins, who right now look like they are just as rasonable options as anyone we could get for a whole lot more money.

James is our SS. In our D, the SS is the matchup guy. If we move James back to FS, then he is not longer the matchup king, which is why he is so great. If we had a FS and thought we can fix some of the issues with Dix, then maybe. But overpaying for players who are marginal skill sets doesn't usually work out well. The Bears are reaching and I think his future performance will show it. It usually does. FA is a losing proposition, no matter the position.

Suh's asking price is too high, but that doesn't mean he is going to budge. A lot of players assume that they have the teams where they want them if they wait and circumstances change. He certainly won't until after the draft. Even then, he may well try to wait and maximize his value with either an injury or some 1st round failure to be falling flat in TC. Either way, NFL locker rooms are full of guys who all think they are way better than they are.

Rodney Gunter is a player who can be had for about the same amount (I imagine as Philon), plays both the 3 tech and NT spots, and has upside considering his lack of playing time, after having been buried on the Cards depth chart the last few years. Again, not worth spending a ton, but his stats were better last year than Philon, and he has not played as much (either snaps or seasons). It is just a matter of getting the right deal done.

Philon is a fair player. Locker rooms are full of players who can be had with his ability level. The draft is full of them. There are still FA with at least his level of production. I don't see the hurry or the need to overpay. He does have some ability, but in 2 years of extensive playing time, he has not really developed much. He still is pretty invisible. He makes some plays, but not that many. We need better production.

Philon will make more of a impact (I hope) than Taylor will. I hope Taylor makes no impact this season. You always hope that, but you buy insurance anyway. If Rivers is going to miss even part of 1 game, we need a fall back option.

For the money we paid Taylor, which is simply not that much, we aren't going to get a better backup. $3.5 million is not even top backup money, and Taylor is a borderline starter. Taylor does add some value in terms of the ability to run better practices, and that is hard to quantify. However, Taylor is getting just over vet min money, so there is not much value to be had. To save any more salary cap space than we have, we are back to the Geno Smith caliber. There are a lot of guys at that level, which is to say so bad that if they had to play, we don't have a chance to win if they play.

The Cards are still looking for 1st and 2nd round value for Rosen. They will look like idiots if they move Rosen for so little. And, any team that takes Rosen for 1st or 2n round value will look like idiots for jumping now. It is a case of everyone just waiting it out. Which is fine. We aren't out of the Rosen running. But no one is being reasonable, and there is no reason to think it will be that way until at least the draft is over. Maybe if there is some other wheeling and dealing on draft day, but I don't see us being part of that.

Ed Reed is retired and has been for some time. There is no way he can play, if for no other reason the Ravens still own his rights as a player. If we can use him, it is as a coach, since both he and Lynn coached together in Buffalo in 2016.

I'm an idiot and didn't mean Ed reed. I meant Eric berry. Don't know why my brain got those two mixed up, I don't want Ed reed unless we can travel back in time.

As for haha we can agree to disagree, his best years including pro bowl years were at FS, he can obviously play there and he is better than anything we have and anything we could get there short of moving up in the first round.

You asked about who could have provided more impact and i provided multiple options. I actually like Taylor but I just worry the money could have been better spent. We don't have a lot and someone who actually contributes on a weekly basis vs someone who holds the clipboard.

As for rosen there has been talk by Daniel Jeremiah that most league sources think they can get a third rounder for Rosen, I wouldn't be upset with our second as it's a low second.

[Boltjolt]

I'm an idiot and didn't mean Ed reed. I meant Eric berry. Don't know why my brain got those two mixed up, I don't want Ed reed unless we can travel back in time.

As for haha we can agree to disagree, his best years including pro bowl years were at FS, he can obviously play there and he is better than anything we have and anything we could get there short of moving up in the first round.

You asked about who could have provided more impact and i provided multiple options. I actually like Taylor but I just worry the money could have been better spent. We don't have a lot and someone who actually contributes on a weekly basis vs someone who holds the clipboard.

As for rosen there has been talk by Daniel Jeremiah that most league sources think they can get a third rounder for Rosen, I wouldn't be upset with our second as it's a low second.

Ok, Rosens cap hit this year will be just a tad under 4 mil at 3.99 million, which is more than Taylor's 3.5. In 2020 it is 4.8 million for Rosen. Taylor has a ton more NFL experience and we didn't give up a second round or a 3rd round pick for him. I don't understand how tradng for Rosen is a good idea.

We will be drafting a QB in 2020 or 2021 so why trade for a guy when what we got costs just as much and has more experience? I just don't see the upside to trading for him.