Question: What 'System' Is The Whiz Offense Based On?

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  • Boltjolt
    Dont let the PBs fool ya
    • Jun 2013
    • 26263
    • Henderson, NV
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    #13
    Originally posted by NoMoreChillies View Post

    Did Whiz ever have QB break records?
    You mean a rookie TD passes record? Since Steichen/Lynn didnt let him get the pass yards record. Well, I dont know ,...But Whis did win a SB as the OC with a rookie QB named Ben Rothlisberger. He also went to a SB coaching the Cardinals.

    Which one do you prefer? A rookie passing record or a SB ring? Which one will be remembered the most?

    Comment


    • #14
      Originally posted by NoMoreChillies View Post

      Did Whiz ever have QB break records?
      You mean rookie QB records, don't you? Do any of these by Marcus Mariota (per Wikipedia) count?

      Most games with at least 3 touchdown passes by an NFL rookie – 4 (tied with Peyton Manning and Deshaun Watson).

      Most passing touchdowns by a rookie quarterback in one half: 4 (tied with Jameis Winston and Deshaun Watson) (September 13, 2015).

      First player in NFL history to pass for at least 250 yards with 3 touchdowns and rush for more than 100 yards in the same game.

      Second rookie in NFL history to throw at least 4 touchdown passes in a season opener.

      First quarterback in NFL history to record 6 total touchdown passes within the first two games of his career.

      First player in the Super Bowl era with a perfect passer rating in first NFL start.

      16 games with at least two touchdown passes in his first two NFL seasons (tied with Peyton Manning and Russell Wilson). [Half of this time was with Whisenhunt.]

      First rookie to have two games with 4 touchdown passes and no interceptions.

      First quarterback in NFL history to throw 4 touchdown passes in the first half of his NFL debut.

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      • Charge!
        Registered Charger Fan
        • Aug 2019
        • 7267
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        #15
        Originally posted by Bolt4Knob View Post

        I want whatever offense the coaches deem is best for the skillset of Justin Herbert. So, I dont know enough about the Shanahan tree or the Earhardt/Perkins system - but I want the coaches to be smart enough to recognize his strengths and weaknesses to build around that

        But when I see the Shanahan system in say San Fran - maybe its QB limitation - but I think Herbert can do more down the field. I think the Bruce Arians "no risk it no biscuit" would be great for a guy like Herbert

        So for that - maybe stick with the current and not switch systems.
        Someons said GB runs same scheme..... SF is more run oriented because lack of a great QB..... GB runs but they still make use of the greatness of Rodgers....

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        • SYB
          Registered Charger Fan
          • Mar 2019
          • 912
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          #16
          Originally posted by Bolt4Knob View Post

          I want whatever offense the coaches deem is best for the skillset of Justin Herbert. So, I dont know enough about the Shanahan tree or the Earhardt/Perkins system - but I want the coaches to be smart enough to recognize his strengths and weaknesses to build around that

          But when I see the Shanahan system in say San Fran - maybe its QB limitation - but I think Herbert can do more down the field. I think the Bruce Arians "no risk it no biscuit" would be great for a guy like Herbert

          So for that - maybe stick with the current and not switch systems.
          LaFleur in GB runs the Shanny system, and look what Rodgers is doing in his 2nd year running it. The system makes average QB's good, and good QB's elite. And it also tends to make RB's look better than they are. Just look at what long time backup and afterthought, Mostert was able to do in that system.

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          • NoMoreChillies
            Outback Goon
            • Sep 2018
            • 1608
            • Australia
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            #17
            Originally posted by Boltjolt View Post

            You mean a rookie TD passes record? Since Steichen/Lynn didnt let him get the pass yards record. Well, I dont know ,...But Whis did win a SB as the OC with a rookie QB named Ben Rothlisberger. He also went to a SB coaching the Cardinals.

            Which one do you prefer? A rookie passing record or a SB ring? Which one will be remembered the most?
            no i dont mean rookie QB, just QB in general.

            As for your question: I'd prefer SB ring over all

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            • Steve
              Administrator
              • Jun 2013
              • 6839
              • South Carolina
              • Meteorologist
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              #18
              The offense was a mix and match of the West Coast Elements most of the coaches had been through either as players or coaches, and the Air Coryell Elements that the players had prior to McCoy. But since both of those offenses are "multiple" schemes, that really doesn't mean much. Originally, we tended to do a lot of quick passing and quick passing routes. But depending on who we have had as receivers we have done more vertical stretch (receivers at multiple levels, not so much a 3 or 4 vertical routes on the same play).

              The other thing to note, is West Coast and Air Coryell teams have started to get away from how they originally called plays. West Coast teams for the first 30 or so years of that offense (and coaches like Gruden still do) ask the players to memorize a play call for every single play. Since playbooks have hundreds of plays, this can be a problem for some players until they have been through it many many times. Air Coryell uses a numbering system for pass routes and key words for formations, so as long as you know the keywords relevant to your position, a player can figure it out on the fly, even if he doesn't remember all the nuisances of all the other players around him. the limitation on it was that Coryell only had numbers for a limited number of routes, so if you are calling the 3 primary receivers, then a 3 digit number is kind of the limit (like "Shotgun right Ram slot left Firepass 999" is all the receivers at the line run a 9 pattern - go deep). Then the various route adjustments of either offense vary somewhat.

              These days, a lot of teams are getting rid of the old ways, and going to more of a keyword for formation and then a second keyword for the route "packages", which is what most college spread teams, and many high school teams do. IT is more flexible, and like with the Air Coryell, simplifies the teaching of the all the routes, but allows for more combinations. It also allows TE and RB to get in on the action, and run some of downfield routes that WR do, and gives the WR a chance to run some of the short (easy) routes that used to be reserved for TE and RB. You can call for 1 package on each side of the formation to give the QB easy options based on his pre-snap read.

              For the morbidly curious, the following link is a summary of all the passing plays we ran in 2018, broken down by package. The 2018 Los Angeles Chargers Pass Game Index: Peters, Bobby: 9781095082058: Amazon.com: Books

              The running game is just the basic zone running game and some complimentary power/counter plays. We were primarily an outside zone running team. Prior to this year, we were pretty balanced between zone and power, but now are mostly zone, which most high school and college teams run. This is not to say we run the scheme that Denver ran in the Terrell Davis era, just that the blocking is primary zone rules and techniques. You simply cannot get the overloads needed to make power running go if you are spread out with 3 WR most of the time.

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              • Heatmiser
                HarbaughHarrisonHeatMiser
                • Jun 2013
                • 4725
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                #19
                Thanks everyone.

                TG
                Like, how am I a traitor? Your team are traitors.

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                • Xenos
                  Moderator
                  • Feb 2019
                  • 8820
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                  #20
                  Originally posted by Heatmiser View Post
                  I know Whiz came from Pittsburgh and Ron Earhardt was the OC there for a long time. So is the Whiz system, which I think we still run, based on Earhardt-Perkins?

                  McVay is a disciple of the Shanahan system so if McConnell comes over, he would bring that I think.

                  Just wondering how big a change it would be for Herbert if McConnell did come.

                  By the way, Rams fans (unlike Bills fans) seem to really hate the Chargers for a lot of reasons, not the least of which is the stadium. Hiring Staley is more fuel for that fire. Some even think Spanos is an evil genius for doing it. But they dont seem to be big fans of McConnell and feel that McVay's ego will not permit him to accept any personal responsibility for the poor offensive performance and will make Goff and McConnell the scape goats. So if Staley wants him seems like good chance McConnell comes. McConnell did a pretty good job with a really lousy Washington offense, talent wise. I think it just depends how Staley and Steichen 'click'

                  TG
                  Here’s a free SI article that talks about the Shanahan scheme as well as the coaching tree. It’s just too bad we couldn’t get Mike McDaniel from the Niners.
                  https://www.si.com/nfl/2021/01/15/sh...afleur-success

                  This is where the vaunted Shanahan scheme—with its foundation in zone running and three-level passing—can explain the success of all the guys in it, and why, here on divisional weekend, it feels like that coaching tree is taking the league over. It’s more than the scheme, of course. But the scheme can go a long way to explaining a bigger picture.

                  Coaching the coaches. The Shanahan offense is steeped not in volume of plays, but volume of detail. The idea is that every play looks like five other plays, which puts the defense in conflict. To make that reality, coaches have to know not just the what but the why and how.

                  “The stressing of the stride length as you run some of these quick-hitting play-action passes on the stripe routes and the drip routes, the splits, the landmarks on the routes, they’re just so detailed on all that, how it’s going to look and complement one another,” said Bengals coach Zac Taylor, who worked with McVay in 2018. “And they do such a great job with different routes off the same stem, so now the DBs have to honor all angles of cut on a lot of these play-actions.

                  “And a lot of these guys have really great receivers that can stretch with speed. Then you’ve got to honor all angles of the cuts, and they make them all look the same—a pain to cover.”

                  Which is where the coaching-the-coaches part comes in. If you’re just looking at all that on tape, you won’t know all that detail. You can see the play and concept, sure. But it’s harder to figure the little pieces of why it works. Which, these guys will tell you, is why it works.

                  The run game. In an era that’s continually devalued the run game, the Shanahan tree never did—and Cousins is first to concede that the system’s foundation in that area is where so much of this comes from. But even he can’t put his finger on why the success the elder Shanahan had with Terrell Davis, Olandis Gary, Mike Anderson and Clinton Portis has transcended football generations like it has. Which caused Cousins to take action.

                  “I decided this year, I’m going to get an answer. I’m going to go to the O-line coach and say, What the heck? What’s the secret sauce here?” he said. “Because I’ve handed off outside zone my whole career, and some years it’s better than others. Why? And I didn’t really get a straight answer. ... I didn’t feel like I knew it any better than I did before asking.”

                  So Cousins will go with his own observation—watching the offensive line practice in these systems, he’s noticed that position group spends time on outside zone and combination blocks in the run game that most others spend working on pass sets and picking up blitzes. And that time allocation leads, as he sees it, to very effective run-blocking groups.

                  In turn, the team then can build passing-game concepts off the run concepts, which allows the offense to keep the defense guessing (which, conceptually, is how offenses as old as the Wing-T are built).

                  “Defensively, that stuff looks the same. They do a great job,” Taylor said. “Sean, that’s where I picked it up from, and obviously Matt was there. They do a great job complementing everything off the run game, and you get the run game going, people really are stressed by it. Then you’ve got all these explosive ways to exploit it off of that, with those keepers, those screens, those play-actions on the field. It’s a fun thing to be a part of.”

                  Never staying stagnant. Off the foundation comes innovation—these guys all study each other, and the ball keeps rolling—and never was that more obvious than in 2012 in Washington, where Kyle Shanahan was OC, LaFleur quarterbacks coach and McVay tight ends coach. The team was preparing to draft Robert Griffin III, and having a different kind of quarterback meant crafting a different kind of offense.

                  That demanded guys who were living their jobs and constantly thinking of ways to advance what they were doing, down to the point where they’d be drawing plays on the backs of pizza boxes in Ashburn during their downtime.

                  “They were putting in the zone read with Robert Griffin, those guys took it upon themselves and said, Hey, we’ve got a quarterback that’s skills are a little different than we’re used to, so we’re going to have to change some of our running system and our passing system,” Mike Shanahan said. “And do some things with Robert that will help him, and not just the base offense that we have been using over the last couple years.

                  “So you have some young guys get together and they want to look at everything that’s being done, I thought it was a big credit to them with the things we did offensively in 2012.”

                  Knowing what you want. With such a clear plan, personnel decisions become simplified—and that’s something Patriots backup Brian Hoyer experienced with Kyle Shanahan in Cleveland in 2015. Shanahan told Hoyer that year what he really needed to make the offense work. A dominant X receiver. A possession receiver. A burner. A pass-catching tight end. Two pass-catching backs. And a cerebral center.

                  Shanahan didn’t get that in Cleveland. He did in Atlanta, with Julio Jones, Mohamed Sanu, Taylor Gabriel, Austin Hooper, Devonta Freeman, Tevin Coleman and Alex Mack filling those needs, and Shanahan ended up getting out of it an MVP season from Matt Ryan, a trip to the Super Bowl and, ultimately, the Niners job.

                  Now, Jones can play for anyone. But the rest, save for the tailbacks, were acquired over Shanahan’s two years in Atlanta—and his presence made it easier on GM Thomas Dimitroff and the personnel folks, in that there was no gray area in what the team needed.

                  And even then, the tailbacks are a good example, too, of how all this works. Most of San Francisco’s backs the last couple of years have run 4.4 in the 40 or faster, the idea being that the scheme will create crease, and the coaches just need players with the ability to make one cut and accelerate into them.

                  Making it easy on the players. Why did Shanahan need that cerebral center? Because the idea is to take calls, and some of the mental load, off the quarterback—and that’s just a microcosm of a grander philosophy that pervades offenses, and now even defenses, in that coaching tree.

                  The idea is to make everything easy on the players and hard on the opponent. It sounds simple. But there’s a lot (think of all the motion and shifting) that goes into it.

                  “The players can quickly understand how different types of plays play off of each other,” Taylor said. “Just picture a three-by-one wide-zone paired with a naked, paired with a play-action, paired with a play-action screen. It all makes sense to them. You can show them back-to-back-to-back-to-back. All these things paired together and how it stresses a defense. But then you can also make them different tempos as well.

                  “Different cadence tempos, tempos out of the huddle. The Rams do a great job with their cadence as well. That’s one thing. You just get a bunch of different cadences, the defense always has to be prepared for the ball to be snapped at any given time. And you can easily show players how it stresses a defense, so they quickly believe in it.”

                  All the same, they’re quickly able to learn how to play on it—which puts teams in position to play young guys faster than some other teams might, a huge key in an era when so many college offenses have become simpler and less directly applicable to NFL concepts.

                  Comment

                  • floydefisher
                    Registered Charger Fan
                    • Jul 2013
                    • 957
                    • siberiacuse, ny
                    • Send PM

                    #21
                    Originally posted by Heatmiser View Post
                    I know Whiz came from Pittsburgh and Ron Earhardt was the OC there for a long time. So is the Whiz system, which I think we still run, based on Earhardt-Perkins?

                    McVay is a disciple of the Shanahan system so if McConnell comes over, he would bring that I think.

                    Just wondering how big a change it would be for Herbert if McConnell did come.

                    By the way, Rams fans (unlike Bills fans) seem to really hate the Chargers for a lot of reasons, not the least of which is the stadium. Hiring Staley is more fuel for that fire. Some even think Spanos is an evil genius for doing it. But they dont seem to be big fans of McConnell and feel that McVay's ego will not permit him to accept any personal responsibility for the poor offensive performance and will make Goff and McConnell the scape goats. So if Staley wants him seems like good chance McConnell comes. McConnell did a pretty good job with a really lousy Washington offense, talent wise. I think it just depends how Staley and Steichen 'click'

                    TG
                    I think Shanahan is West Coast.....Whiz, I couldn't tell you tbh.
                    sigpic

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                    • floydefisher
                      Registered Charger Fan
                      • Jul 2013
                      • 957
                      • siberiacuse, ny
                      • Send PM

                      #22
                      Originally posted by Boltjolt View Post

                      You mean a rookie TD passes record? Since Steichen/Lynn didnt let him get the pass yards record. Well, I dont know ,...But Whis did win a SB as the OC with a rookie QB named Ben Rothlisberger. He also went to a SB coaching the Cardinals.

                      Which one do you prefer? A rookie passing record or a SB ring? Which one will be remembered the most?
                      Hate to break it to you, but Roethlisberger was in his second year when Pittsburgh won that Super Bowl.

                      That in itself is a feat, but not quite the feat you had in mind.
                      sigpic

                      Comment

                      • Topcat
                        AKA "Pollcat"
                        • Jan 2019
                        • 17435
                        • Send PM

                        #23
                        Originally posted by Steve View Post
                        The offense was a mix and match of the West Coast Elements most of the coaches had been through either as players or coaches, and the Air Coryell Elements that the players had prior to McCoy. But since both of those offenses are "multiple" schemes, that really doesn't mean much. Originally, we tended to do a lot of quick passing and quick passing routes. But depending on who we have had as receivers we have done more vertical stretch (receivers at multiple levels, not so much a 3 or 4 vertical routes on the same play).

                        The other thing to note, is West Coast and Air Coryell teams have started to get away from how they originally called plays. West Coast teams for the first 30 or so years of that offense (and coaches like Gruden still do) ask the players to memorize a play call for every single play. Since playbooks have hundreds of plays, this can be a problem for some players until they have been through it many many times. Air Coryell uses a numbering system for pass routes and key words for formations, so as long as you know the keywords relevant to your position, a player can figure it out on the fly, even if he doesn't remember all the nuisances of all the other players around him. the limitation on it was that Coryell only had numbers for a limited number of routes, so if you are calling the 3 primary receivers, then a 3 digit number is kind of the limit (like "Shotgun right Ram slot left Firepass 999" is all the receivers at the line run a 9 pattern - go deep). Then the various route adjustments of either offense vary somewhat.

                        These days, a lot of teams are getting rid of the old ways, and going to more of a keyword for formation and then a second keyword for the route "packages", which is what most college spread teams, and many high school teams do. IT is more flexible, and like with the Air Coryell, simplifies the teaching of the all the routes, but allows for more combinations. It also allows TE and RB to get in on the action, and run some of downfield routes that WR do, and gives the WR a chance to run some of the short (easy) routes that used to be reserved for TE and RB. You can call for 1 package on each side of the formation to give the QB easy options based on his pre-snap read.

                        For the morbidly curious, the following link is a summary of all the passing plays we ran in 2018, broken down by package. The 2018 Los Angeles Chargers Pass Game Index: Peters, Bobby: 9781095082058: Amazon.com: Books

                        The running game is just the basic zone running game and some complimentary power/counter plays. We were primarily an outside zone running team. Prior to this year, we were pretty balanced between zone and power, but now are mostly zone, which most high school and college teams run. This is not to say we run the scheme that Denver ran in the Terrell Davis era, just that the blocking is primary zone rules and techniques. You simply cannot get the overloads needed to make power running go if you are spread out with 3 WR most of the time.
                        Good info...thanks...

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