Welcome Josh Palmer, WR, Tennessee (Pick #77)

[Xenos]

I don’t mind going back and forth until I feel like I’m repeating myself. I view MW as a legit deep threat that teams have to respect with their coverages and chaincrusher doesn’t see it the same way. That’s the lynchpin of his desire for speed out wide from how I’m understanding it. I would agree with his views more if I also felt MW had no deep value, but I think defenses do play to cover him over the top more often than not.

I also like equivocation’s point of just having Palmer out there to give MW and Keenan a breather. We all saw Keenan missing time at the end of the season, and I think a big part of that was the sheer volume of work coming his way. MW doesn’t miss a ton of time, outside his rookie season, but always seems to play dinged up due to his style of play. I respect and appreciate it but we want both those guys as healthy as possible come January.

Another thing I’ve mentioned before is Herbert’s experience with sub par WR at Oregon vs what we have to work with. I think one of the big reason MW didn’t have much consistent production until the end of the year is that Herbert had no real experience throwing to a big WR like that before last year. At Oregon he had undersized quick twitch guys, some with long speed. A lot of tunnel screens and deep balls down the sideline, not a lot of working the middle of the field or putting the WR in a position to just go battle the DBs. Herbert was learning during the season how to take advantage of a WR like Williams. Johnson and Guyton were running those deep routes that he was used to and Keenan makes so much space for himself that it’s hard NOT to look his way consistently. Henry was working familiar TE concepts for Herbert as well. Palmer I think is going to give Herbert some options in the shallow to midrange much like Keenan earlier on, with a chance to develop his deep game over time. I think the team was hoping to get some of that from Hill last year but his severe lack of speed made even that tough. Unless Hill drastically improves his route running, which was already the best part of his game, I just don’t see him making the roster.

Great post. I forgot that Palmer can give KA a breather now that he’s older. That’s a good point.

I’m with you regarding MW. He can be a deep threat but it takes him time to build up to it due to his long stride. He reminds me so much of VIncent Jackson (RIP) and Malcolm Floyd in how he plays. Both were long striders that could stretch the field. Though I think VJ was better at working the middle of the field. It’s too bad MW is as fragile as Floyd and didn’t have VJ’s durability.

[Bearded14YourPleasure]

MW is not changing coverages because they do not have to change from squatting to cover him. That is my point which you seem to have overlooked. That, on the other hand, would be a bad defensive approach with guys like Guyton and Johnson who can run by defenders.

I would just recommend watching film if you think teams aren’t changing coverages due to MW. Most of Guyton’s and Johnson’s deep catches are with a single DB on them. MW’s are with 2 or 3 defenders on him. It’s not because Guyton and Johnson ran away from the other 10 guys.

[Xenos]

Over-react much?

Our highest needs in the draft were Tackle and DB. Had that not been the case I'm sure the team might have loved to have grabbed a Waddle type threat.

David Jeremiah said he viewed Palmer as 3rd or 4th round pick. PFF raved on the selection. On some Senior Bowl plays where I watched he didn't seem like he could separate, and in others I saw him break ankles and run away from guys. I will note on the plays where he wasn't separating there was a ton of borderline contact by DB.

The greatest offensive mind in footall, Kyle Shanahan says, "receivers must be able to block and willing to block". Maybe that has a bit to do with this selection as well. If we are going to deploy more screens, reverses, etc....this is particularly important.

Staley’s old boss, Sean McVay, was the same way. He wanted blockers at receiver ie. Robert Woods and Cooper Kupp.

[Guest]

I would just recommend watching film if you think teams aren’t changing coverages due to MW. Most of Guyton’s and Johnson’s deep catches are with a single DB on them. MW’s are with 2 or 3 defenders on him. It’s not because Guyton and Johnson ran away from the other 10 guys.

I am discussing nothing more than squatting as defenses did in 2019 versus not squatting with more deep threats on the field. The discussion has nothing to do with double and triple teams.

[Bearded14YourPleasure]

I am discussing nothing more than squatting as defenses did in 2019 versus not squatting with more deep threats on the field. The discussion has nothing to do with double and triple teams.

Double and triple teams are a result of coverages being rolled over to specific players. You claimed MW wasn’t forcing teams to change to cover him. Or do you think teams routinely cover each WR with 2-3 guys?

[equivocation]

Herbert's worst plays last year were vs cover 2 press because the line couldnt block for more than 0 seconds. With a good release just about anyone can outrun cover 0 press, just gotta do it quick.

[Guest]

Double and triple teams are a result of coverages being rolled over to specific players. You claimed MW wasn’t forcing teams to change to cover him. Or do you think teams routinely cover each WR with 2-3 guys?

I was discussing squatting versus not squatting. I am saying that it is not necessary to defend Williams like he is Tyreek Hill by giving a large cushion. The problem is not the defender not being there when the pass goes to Williams, but rather that it may not matter that the defender is there. And double teams against Williams are not smart because that may not matter either. It is not that he isn't covered. It is that he is Williams.

Unlike the situation with Williams, Guyton and Johnson can simply run past coverage, even double teams, as Johnson did against TB. My hope is that CBs squat on them because not too many can run with them.

In one case, the defense needs to account for speed. In other case, it does not.

Also, issues created by Williams are not the same as Palmer creating those same issues. The point is that issues created for defenses by Guyton and Johnson are not created by Palmer.

[equivocation]

It's amazing how Tyreek Hill got slower when KC lost both starting tackles.

[Bearded14YourPleasure]

I was discussing squatting versus not squatting. I am saying that it is not necessary to defend Williams like he is Tyreek Hill by giving a large cushion. The problem is not the defender not being there when the pass goes to Williams, but rather that it may not matter that the defender is there. And double teams against Williams are not smart because that may not matter either. It is not that he isn't covered. It is that he is Williams.

Unlike the situation with Williams, Guyton and Johnson can simply run past coverage, even double teams, as Johnson did against TB. My hope is that CBs squat on them because not too many can run with them.

In one case, the defense needs to account for speed. In other case, it does not.

Also, issues created by Williams are not the same as Palmer creating those same issues. The point is that issues created for defenses by Guyton and Johnson are not created by Palmer.

No one on this team is being defended like Tyreek Hill. No one else in the league gets defended like Tyreek Hill. It’s not just his speed but the route concepts that Reid puts around Hill that teams have to account for. You’re tossing aside double teaming Williams as not smart but the point is that teams still do it, which is creating opportunities for other players. What’s the point of having speed on the field if it isn’t going to dictate coverages? Williams being on the field dictates coverages. Accounting for speed means covering the deep third, Williams forces teams to cover the deep third.

No one claimed Palmer was creating the same issues, MW is the one that is forcing teams to back away from the line. Palmer not creating the same issues as Guyton and Johnson doesn’t mean that he doesn’t provide anything by being on the field. Not every play happens 80 yards away from the end zone. What’s that deep speed providing you in the red zone? I’ll take route running over speed within 30 yards every time.

[Guest]

No one on this team is being defended like Tyreek Hill. No one else in the league gets defended like Tyreek Hill. It’s not just his speed but the route concepts that Reid puts around Hill that teams have to account for. You’re tossing aside double teaming Williams as not smart but the point is that teams still do it, which is creating opportunities for other players. What’s the point of having speed on the field if it isn’t going to dictate coverages? Williams being on the field dictates coverages. Accounting for speed means covering the deep third, Williams forces teams to cover the deep third.

No one claimed Palmer was creating the same issues, MW is the one that is forcing teams to back away from the line. Palmer not creating the same issues as Guyton and Johnson doesn’t mean that he doesn’t provide anything by being on the field. Not every play happens 80 yards away from the end zone. What’s that deep speed providing you in the red zone? I’ll take route running over speed within 30 yards every time.

My point is just the opposite. The speed does make defenses adjust because they do not want to give up 50+ yard passes. It helps open up things for the other receivers. Teams are not defending Mike Williams like he is Calvin Johnson in his prime. There is no need to do that as it does not generally affect the outcome of the play. They might double him in clock critical late known long passing situations.

And my original point is that Palmer is not likely to be forcing any defensive adjustments in terms of respecting deep speed. That is why it seems like a bad idea to have Allen, Williams and Palmer on the field at the same time. I would much rather have Guyton or Johnson on the field than Palmer with Allen and Williams because it creates more offensive options, options for which defenses have to account.

[JAFA]

B14 - give it up. You're never going to change his mind no matter how logically you present your position.

IMO Palmer was drafted to be the Charger's version of the Saint's Michael Thomas, and Lombardi's fingerprints are all over this selection. Let's hope he can be half as productive. I forget what round Thomas was drafted in (4th? 5th? even later??) and the knock on him was lack of speed, but the guy is ALWAYS open - just ask Drew Brees.

[JAFA]

Question; Who would you rather have as a receiver; Michael Thomas (in his prime) or Guyton / Johnson?

Thomas gets separation despite being slow by wide receiver standards because of his smarts and route running ability. Sounds a lot like Palmer. You can find burners anywhere (someone else mentioned Travis Benjamin earlier) but I'll take production over speed any day.