Our Wide Receivers.

[DragonIce]

5'8 and 150# .... He better be unhittable cuz he's like to get broken in two.

LOL. I know!

He's going to need to use his quickness to hit the dirt fast when he's about to get tackled. :nod:

[DragonIce]

The Chargers were one of the worst team's in the NFL in 2020 for creating receiver separation.

Per AWS Next Gen stats here were the top Chargers (43 targets required to be on list):

• Guyton, 3.1 yards (58th rank)
• K Allen, 2.9 yards (78th rank)
• Hentry, 2.5 yards (115th rank)
• Williams, 2.1 yards (130th rank)

Now before we make any conclusions, let's think about how separation can be created:
-Deceptive scheme of offense, such as a QB bootleg that gets tight end wide open. Five of the top 10 biggest separating players in league were tight ends, despite the fact these guys are slower, more lumbering.

-Route running, footwork

-Pure straight-line speed

-Short area quickness

-Defensive lapse, failure of assignment

Also...we know offenses can win despite lack of separation by QBs throwing to precise spot, or receiver out-muscling, out-leveraging, or out-competing for pass

[like54ninjas]

You clearly don't understand my point. I am not talking about overall greatness as a receiver. I am talking about a specific skill set, a specific profile or player type.

I watched all of Keenan's 2020 highlights here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DIOA7NaSI3k&t=117s)

In Allen I see a great receiver. One of the league's best. Great routes, great hands, great positioning. Good size and athleticism. Bold in traffic. He's amazing, but he's not got top-ten quickness. He wouldn't make an elite punt returner, which is what you inevitably find with the type of player I'm talking about.

And again, you aren't getting the point when you talk about the straight-line speed of Guyton. I'm talking not straight line speed, but quickness, a different thing. The cat I'm talking about can start or stop on a dime, attain top speed in just a few steps, turn suddenly with no loss of speed.

The cat I'm talking about is inevitably a little guy (it's physics and kinesiology - low center of gravity required). Again watch elite punters to understand:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bX4c_RVcv2c

Keenan doesn’t have top end vertical speed but he has elite quickness, elite COD agility, elite separation skills off the line and at TOR, elite hands, and elite body control/positioning.

We are talking about the same thing. We just do not see the same thing or our vocabularies aren’t meshing.
COD agility combined with making route stems look identical are the keys to separation. WRs that have these skills are able to cut/snap routes at insane angles to create separation and offer viable consistent targets for a QB.

Let’s take Guyton for example again. Yes we all know he has the vertical speed to get over the top. He already runs 9’s and crossers very well. Jalen also has near elite COD skills and body control. If he can improve his route stem deception, he’ll create solid amounts of underneath separation. Guyton has close to the same explosion and agility profile of Tyreek. Guyton (3” in height/20# in weight)is just a bigger athlete so his agility profile is that much more impressive. Will he grow into this role? Unknown but he certainly has the skillset.
Reed also has an incredible skillset for playing the slot position. He just has a ton of work to do on his routes/stems, understanding coverage concepts, and mastering the playbook.

I do not watch highlights to grade players.

[DragonIce]

SF had two in the top 10, and Rams had 4 in the top 60 most separated.

Shanahan and McVeigh are brilliant at scheming guys open.

[DragonIce]

Keenan doesn’t have top end vertical speed but he has elite quickness, elite COD agility, elite separation skills

Separation: K Allen, 2.9 yards (78th rank)

There are a lot of factors, so I'm not presenting this as anything conclusive, but I see him more as a guy who is very good (but not elite) in all aspects of his game. I don't see him as the jitterbug type I'm talking about.

Anyways...maybe I'm wrong. Just my opinion.

[like54ninjas]

There are a lot of factors, so I'm not presenting this as anything conclusive, but I see him more as a guy who is very good (but not elite) in all aspects of his game. I don't see him as the jitterbug type I'm talking about.

Anyways...maybe I'm wrong. Just my opinion.

What qualifications are factored in?
-off line release separation?
-10 yard separation down field route?
- blown coverages?
-at CP?
-vertical speed routes?
-separation per route run? If so at what point?

As they identify it has little to do with route separation as 5 of the top 10 are TE.
This is why stats without context mean next to nothing.

We will just have to disagree on how we see Slayer and what it takes to create separation.

[DragonIce]

• Guyton, 3.1 yards (58th rank)
• K Allen, 2.9 yards (78th rank)
• Henry, 2.5 yards (115th rank)
• Williams, 2.1 yards (130th rank)

When we consider that Herbert was ROY--with bottom barrel pass protection, poor play calling, weak run game, and receivers not getting tons of sunlight...it staggers the mind.

But this needs to change. I mostly blame the lack of sophisticated scheme, which I very much expect to improve.

Fortunately Allen and Williams are superior at snatching balls in traffic, but next offseason I also want me a ultra quick, shifty little guy and a top-15 tight end. As a Cowboy fan I saw what Cole Beasley could bring. Cole ranked 17th on the list this last year (8th amongst WRs). These guys are 3rd down magic.

[Guest]

You clearly don't understand my point. I am not talking about overall greatness as a receiver. I am talking about a specific skill set, a specific profile or player type.

I watched all of Keenan's 2020 highlights here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DIOA7NaSI3k&t=117s)

In Allen I see a great receiver. One of the league's best. Great routes, great hands, great positioning. Good size and athleticism. Bold in traffic. He's amazing, but he's not got top-ten quickness. He wouldn't make an elite punt returner, which is what you inevitably find with the type of player I'm talking about.

And again, you aren't getting the point when you talk about the straight-line speed of Guyton. I'm talking not straight line speed, but quickness, a different thing. The cat I'm talking about can start or stop on a dime, attain top speed in just a few steps, turn suddenly with no loss of speed.

The cat I'm talking about is inevitably a little guy (it's physics and kinesiology - low center of gravity required). Again watch elite punters to understand:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bX4c_RVcv2c

I disagree with much of what you have said.

Allen actually was used as a punt returner early in his career precisely because of his quickness. Allen is not fast, so all he had was his quickness and cutting ability.

Allen's best position is the slot precisely because of his ability to gain immediate/quick separation. Allen's elite ability to gain immediate/quick separation is the single trait for which he is most known.

Also, Tyreek Hill does not win with quickness and sharp cutting ability. He mainly wins with speed. Speed forces large cushions, which helps him to be open. Also, KC uses him frequently in deep crossing patterns in which he runs away from coverage using his speed as nobody can run across the field with him. He is not making a sharp, sudden cut to gain separation in those instances. Rather, he is just outrunning the guy on his hip to create separation.

[Velo]

https://scores.nbcsports.com/fb/leaders.asp?type=Receiving&range=NFL&rank=232

It's all a sliding scale, but Tyreek Hill, Alvin Kamara, DK Metcalf, Diggs, and Mike Evans were all in the top 15 in drops last season. We have the best receiving RB, and 5 of the top 10 WRs in football on the list. I'd say they are getting the job done, plain and simple.

Guyton had 4 drops last year. That means a drop on 7.2% of targets (55). Comparing that to Johnson 0 drops on 26 targets. It's not really equal because Guyton played 16 games to Guytons 12. Over a 16 game season Johnson would be targeted about 35 times. That's 20 more times Guyton was able to get open compared to Johnson. Those 4 drops don't mean as much to me as those 20 extra times getting open.

And once again, both these players are not finished products. I think Guyton can improve his hands and Johnson can improve his feel and get open more. I just think people on here get too focused on the drops when comparing these two players.

The thing with Guyton, is that the drops came late in the season. He was great early on. But as he got more notice for what he was accomplishing, it seemed like the pressure got to him, he got nervous, and he had some bad drops. But that is a a fixable issue, especially as a player becomes more veteran and the game isn't too big for them anymore. Tyron, on the other hand, didn't seem to be affected, he made some really remarkable catches and didn't have a single drop even late into the season.

[DragonIce]

I disagree with much of what you have said.

Allen actually was used as a punt returner early in his career precisely because of his quickness. Allen is not fast, so all he had was his quickness and cutting ability.

Allen's best position is the slot precisely because of his ability to gain immediate/quick separation. Allen's elite ability to gain immediate/quick separation is the single trait for which he is most known.

A comparison, QB rating when targeted:
Cole Beasley:
2018...108
2019...88
2020...108

Keenan Allen:
2018...106
2019...85
2020...90

Cole makes it easier on his QB to be efficient, with his suddenness in space. He works the underneath like a demon. Can Cole be a #1 receiver? No. Can Cole be a big downfield threat? No. He is not the complete receiver that Allen is, but he has a specific skill set I want on the team. (Not him, he's nearing EOL, but a player like him.)

Also, Tyreek Hill does not win with quickness and sharp cutting ability. He mainly wins with speed. Speed forces large cushions, which helps him to be open. Also, KC uses him frequently in deep crossing patterns in which he runs away from coverage using his speed as nobody can run across the field with him. He is not making a sharp, sudden cut to gain separation in those instances. Rather, he is just outrunning the guy on his hip to create separation.

I'm not sure we are watching the same player. The Hill I watch has elite quickness And elite speed. He is exactly what I'm talking about: 5'10".
Exhibit: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LFCqLqfFhJE

Happy to take a "poor man's version" of that.

[like54ninjas]

I disagree with much of what you have said.

Allen actually was used as a punt returner early in his career precisely because of his quickness. Allen is not fast, so all he had was his quickness and cutting ability.

Allen's best position is the slot precisely because of his ability to gain immediate/quick separation. Allen's elite ability to gain immediate/quick separation is the single trait for which he is most known.

Also, Tyreek Hill does not win with quickness and sharp cutting ability. He mainly wins with speed. Speed forces large cushions, which helps him to be open. Also, KC uses him frequently in deep crossing patterns in which he runs away from coverage using his speed as nobody can run across the field with him. He is not making a sharp, sudden cut to gain separation in those instances. Rather, he is just outrunning the guy on his hip to create separation.

I concur.
It is going to be a magical season when crusher and I are of like minds on here.

[like54ninjas]

A comparison, QB rating when targeted:
Cole Beasley :
2018...108
2019...88
2020...108

Keenan Allen:
2018...106
2019...85
2020...90

Cole makes it easier on his QB to be efficient, with his suddenness in space. He works the underneath like a demon. Can Cole be a #1 receiver? No. Can Cole be a big downfield threat? No. But he has a specific skill set I want on the team. (Not him, he's nearing EOL, but a player like him.)





I'm not sure we are watching the same player. The Hill I watch has elite quickness And elite speed. He is exactly what I'm talking about: 5'10".
Exhibit: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LFCqLqfFhJE

Beasley is what the 3rd option on most route concepts?
Keenan is the 1st option who draws the top over guy on each team.
Not an apples to apples comparison.

Tyreek is a unicorn. His speed gives him mismatches in scheme and coverage concepts against him. Hill has impressive COD agility as well. Most players of his size don’t last long in the NFL without the freakish speed and athleticism.