POLL: Is it Time to Fire Lombardi?

[Boltjolt]

This link is a good breakdown of what opponents have been doing to slow down Herbert and force him to throw underneath.

And we also know that if the protection doesn't hold up, then there's no time to make thee deeper throw.

And then of course the opponent is playing a coverage designed to take away the deep pass.

The OC poor play calling argument is vastly overstated and also undermined by a cherry picked stats about air yards in an offensive system that looks at the short horizontal passing game as an extension of the run game. So within a system that uses short passes as part of run game, those plays being included in the stat will obviously lower the overall air yards, making the air yards stat insignificant at best and irrelevant at worst.

Cover 2 is a two-deep, five-under zone defense run out of both base and sub-package personnel (dime, nickel).


By rushing four, and dropping seven into coverage (with eyes on the quarterback), the defense can take away vertical concepts while forcing the ball underneath to the flat or check-down option.

Chargers blocked it well enough on a few plays to get some of those deep shot off vs Bengals. Some of those exact same play calls last week didn't work as the protection broke down.

Mike Willims said after todays game that the secondary started playing back more in the 2nd half so couldnt get deep balls and why the pass game went back to shorter....but some posters here just keep saying the WRs arent getting open.

[Topcat]

Mike Willims said after todays game that the secondary started playing back more in the 2nd half so couldnt get deep balls and why the pass game went back to shorter....but some posters here just keep saying the WRs arent getting open.

That's the nature of the game...take what the opposing D gives you...

[Critty]

If you go run, run, run, run, run and then max protection with 2 TE and RB also blocking, then play action is more available to create deep shots. Everybody knows this and can clearly understand how the team created those deep shots in the previous offensive scheme. Don't ignoring the shift to less of a run play action orientated team to a team who uses the horizontal and short pass game as an extension of the run. And don't ignore the adjustment by opponent to use more cover 2 vs Herbert. I think the critics of the offense are overlooking these details.

[Guest]

When Guyton did get targets he dropped the ball. He looked good today though. Just got the feeling he isnt a trusted target for Herbert. The OL will always be key to scoring points. Tjere was times in the 2nd half when the OL wasnt doing well and Herbert didnt have time to throw so we couldnt throw deep.

One play we should scrap is the WR screen.

Offense scored 34 points today which will up the average.

I agree 100% about getting rid of WR screens and I would add the 3 yard WR slant out passes that risk INTs for very little gain.

We have not designed deep passing plays for Guyton as the primary target at all this year until today. That has been the biggest problem for us concerning why our deep passing game has not been as effective. There is a huge margin of error (as was proven today) when Guyton is running 5 yards in the clear on a deep passing play. And Guyton gets that kind of separation pretty regularly because he is really fast.

Guyton has had short/medium drops this year as have all of our receivers (we lead the league in drops). But that is not the most important part of his game.

The talk of the OL is, of course, a red herring. The OL sucked last year--way worse than this year. And yet, we threw deep with great success. We have yet to field an OL this year that was as bad as any we fielded last year.

Herbert was not at his best today and we still rolled up 34 offensive points. That should say something about the value of the deep passing game in making drives easier. It is incredibly obvious and always has been.

[Topcat]

When Guyton did get targets he dropped the ball. He looked good today though. Just got the feeling he isnt a trusted target for Herbert. The OL will always be key to scoring points. Tjere was times in the 2nd half when the OL wasnt doing well and Herbert didnt have time to throw so we couldnt throw deep.

One play we should scrap is the WR screen.

Offense scored 34 points today which will up the average.

Can't stand that WR screen...opposing defenses can sniff it out like a hound dog can sniff out a raccoon...

[Boltjolt]

That's the nature of the game...take what the opposing D gives you...

Exactly but you keep agreeing with Chain about the long pass game in prior weeks while you just agreed to take what he defense gives you.

Its like your flopping lol.

[Topcat]

Exactly but you keep agreeing with Chain about the long pass game in prior weeks while you just agreed to take what he defense gives you.

Its like your flopping lol.

Actually, my point has been to throw the midrange and long balls when opposing D's keep stacking the box to take away our short pass game. Look up some of my posts, and I have said that we need to keep doing this UNTIL they drop their two safeties and LB's back into coverage. Then, as soon as we see THIS look, THEN go back to the short pass and perimeter pass game...

[Topcat]

If you go run, run, run, run, run and then max protection with 2 TE and RB also blocking, then play action is more available to create deep shots. Everybody knows this and can clearly understand how the team created those deep shots in the previous offensive scheme. Don't ignoring the shift to less of a run play action orientated team to a team who uses the horizontal and short pass game as an extension of the run. And don't ignore the adjustment by opponent to use more cover 2 vs Herbert. I think the critics of the offense are overlooking these details.

Also, I liked how the Bolts threw passes out of that tight formation...it's about deception...looks like a run, we pass instead...

[Guest]

This link is a good breakdown of what opponents have been doing to slow down Herbert and force him to throw underneath.

And we also know that if the protection doesn't hold up, then there's no time to make thee deeper throw.

And then of course the opponent is playing a coverage designed to take away the deep pass.

The OC poor play calling argument is vastly overstated and also undermined by a cherry picked stats about air yards in an offensive system that looks at the short horizontal passing game as an extension of the run game. So within a system that uses short passes as part of run game, those plays being included in the stat will obviously lower the overall air yards, making the air yards stat insignificant at best and irrelevant at worst.

Cover 2 is a two-deep, five-under zone defense run out of both base and sub-package personnel (dime, nickel).


By rushing four, and dropping seven into coverage (with eyes on the quarterback), the defense can take away vertical concepts while forcing the ball underneath to the flat or check-down option.

Chargers blocked it well enough on a few plays to get some of those deep shot off vs Bengals. Some of those exact same play calls last week didn't work as the protection broke down.

Complete BS.

The author of the cited article cannot even tell the difference between Allen and Williams. Utterly clueless nonsense.

We have arguably the game's best deep passer and until today we have mostly refused to use him in that capacity, not to mention a great deep receiving option that regularly produces huge separation in Guyton.

Keeping this as an apples to apples discussion and factoring out the 35 Staley produced points by going for it on 4th downs on which Lynn never would have gone for it, last year's offense was actually outscoring this year's offense in points per game heading into today. And that is even with the idiotic game plans of Anthony Lynn. That is an incredible indictment against what Lombardi had done until today.

And it has been all Lombardi both in Detroit and here failing to take advantage of his strong armed QBs by throwing for among the fewest air yards per pass in the league. It failed in Detroit and it had been failing with us. Amazingly, it is much more difficult to score a TD on a 15 play drive than it is on a 3 play drive that features a completed long pass, something that Lombardi just seems to have overlooked all season long on his way to being the best defense against Herbert.

But today, finally, after being begged to do so by a multitude of media pundits (because the vast majority of those watching us play can see the problem as plain as day), Lombardi called some clearly designed deep passes (versus just having Guyton run deep as the 4th or 5th option on a planned short pass). Without Hebert playing his best, and with multiple dropped long passes that should have led to two additional TDs for us, the offense finally looked explosive.

There is zero evidence that designed shot plays were called last week like today. There is ample evidence that the defenders were tightly contesting intended short passes because that is 98% of what we had thrown over most of the season.

The OL is struggling argument in the face of last year's even worse OL that was good enough to allow a successful deep passing game is clearly BS and can be rejected out of hand.

[Topcat]

Complete BS.

The author of the cited article cannot even tell the difference between Allen and Williams. Utterly clueless nonsense.

We have arguably the game's best deep passer and until today we have mostly refused to use him in that capacity, not to mention a great deep receiving option that regularly produces huge separation in Guyton.

Keeping this as an apples to apples discussion and factoring out the 35 Staley produced points by going for it on 4th downs on which Lynn never would have gone for it, last year's offense was actually outscoring this year's offense in points per game heading into today. And that is even with the idiotic game plans of Anthony Lynn. That is an incredible indictment against what Lombardi had done until today.

And it has been all Lombardi both in Detroit and here failing to take advantage of his strong armed QBs by throwing for among the fewest air yards per pass in the league. It failed in Detroit and it had been failing with us. Amazingly, it is much more difficult to score a TD on a 15 play drive than it is on a 3 play drive that features a completed long pass, something that Lombardi just seems to have overlooked all season long on his way to being the best defense against Herbert.

But today, finally, after being begged to do so by a multitude of media pundits (because the vast majority of those watching us play can see the problem as plain as day), Lombardi called some clearly designed deep passes (versus just having Guyton run deep as the 4th or 5th option on a planned short pass). Without Hebert playing his best, and with multiple dropped long passes that should have led to two additional TDs for us, the offense finally looked explosive.

There is zero evidence that designed shot plays were called last week like today. There is ample evidence that the defenders were tightly contesting intended short passes because that is 98% of what we had thrown over most of the season.

The OL is struggling argument in the face of last year's even worse OL that was good enough to allow a successful deep passing game is clearly BS and can be rejected out of hand.

^ This...should have had a balanced short/midrange/long ball attack ALL season. The Donk game, the long ball would have been tougher, with Scho and Kelemete giving up 19 total pressures...BUT...at least SOME of that could have mitigated by max protect or at least the RB or TE helping with pass pro, and designed rollouts by Herbie...

[Critty]

Also, I liked how the Bolts threw passes out of that tight formation...it's about deception...looks like a run, we pass instead...

Last year they pass 57% and run 43%

This year they pass 64% and run 36%

Less runs takes away from the play action game and hitting them over the top. Now you have to get them to take away short pass and QB has to really see the field well. Last year style asked less of Justin and helped set him up a bit more. This year's style is asking more of Justin has given him the keys. He will go deep when it's there. He has the greenest light from this HC who puts the ball in his hands all the time in clutch moments.

[Guest]

^ This...should have had a balanced short/midrange/long ball attack ALL season. The Donk game, the long ball would have been tougher, with Scho and Kelemete giving up 19 total pressures...BUT...at least SOME of that could have mitigated by max protect or at least the RB or TE helping with pass pro, and designed rollouts by Herbie...

Right. Max protect is how you beat the pressure in limited shot attempts. Screens can work against pressure if you are not throwing short on every single pass.

I am not here to say that Kelemete is as good as Feiler, but it is just nonsense to say that we cannot throw deep at all when he had a much worse OL last year than any OL we have played this year and threw deep with great success. If we could do it then with the worst OL in the league, we can certainly do it now.

It is not about the OL. It is about the play calling and play design.

And of course, as soon as we made an effort to throw deep, we kicked ass.

As I keep saying, it always was obvious what we needed to do.