Draft Bosa and Play 4-3 Defense?

[bonehead]

Whatever. I fucked up. I obviously have no clue. Not nearly as smart at Steve. Ill just stop with the X's and O's.

Keep bringing it Fleet I respect your opinions and you put some good stuff out there...I like Steve too but he ain't all that, at the end of the day he's just another guy on the internet

[Mister Hoarse]

We are all just other guys on the internet.
Unless some of you thought we were all hot chicks.


No more PMs please.

[rikardo]

If we were a 4-3, I'd love Bosa. I just have reservations about how he fits in A 3-4.

We are 1 DE away on being a great 4-3 (front 7) IMO. Ingram can play DE in the 4-3, we already have the DT, and the LBs...

[Formula 21]

We are 1 DE away on being a great 4-3 (front 7) IMO. Ingram can play DE in the 4-3, we already have the DT, and the LBs...

Who is the freak speed guy at ROLB?

[Steve]

If we were a 4-3, I'd love Bosa. I just have reservations about how he fits in A 3-4.

That argument might have merit if we didn't play in a 4 man rush line over 70% of the time.

I agree, if we wanted Bosa to be a do it all OLB where he was dropping in coverage 50% of the time, then we might be using him poorly. But the vast majority of the time, both our OLB line up just like a 43 DE. If there is a difference in our 34 and a true 43, it is that Pagano has let various OLB line up in a 2 point stance as opposed to a 3 point stance. Guys like Barnes and Freeney spent almost all their time in a 3 point stance, so I don't think there is much merit to that one either.

I think you are just hung up on putting labels on him. You don't like the idea of calling him an OLB, vs calling him a DE. But the assignments would be the same, no matter what he is called.

I also don't buy the presnap read thing. Sure, there is the POTENTIAL of that, but how often do we really do all of the exotic blitzing and dropping in coverage? 70% of the time, it's 2 OLB rushing from the edge, and 2 DE who you know are going to rush inside, with the occasional blitz or stunt. Coaches spend so much time adding all the little bells and whistles that COULD be used, but in the end, most of the time, they rush 4 guys in a pass rush line with 2 of them lined up inside (3 technique and 1 technique) and 2 outside (wide 5 to 9 techniques). Maybe we make a play or two per game, but we probably miss more plays than that due to all the extra studying and practice time spent on techniques and alignments that we hardly use. Is it worth worrying about a fraction of the 30% of the plays (which also includes goalline and short yardage alignments)? Or do you just draft the best rush guy in the draft and turn him lose.

[Formula 21]

That argument might have merit if we didn't play in a 4 man rush line over 70% of the time.

I agree, if we wanted Bosa to be a do it all OLB where he was dropping in coverage 50% of the time, then we might be using him poorly. But the vast majority of the time, both our OLB line up just like a 43 DE. If there is a difference in our 34 and a true 43, it is that Pagano has let various OLB line up in a 2 point stance as opposed to a 3 point stance. Guys like Barnes and Freeney spent almost all their time in a 3 point stance, so I don't think there is much merit to that one either.

I think you are just hung up on putting labels on him. You don't like the idea of calling him an OLB, vs calling him a DE. But the assignments would be the same, no matter what he is called.

I also don't buy the presnap read thing. Sure, there is the POTENTIAL of that, but how often do we really do all of the exotic blitzing and dropping in coverage? 70% of the time, it's 2 OLB rushing from the edge, and 2 DE who you know are going to rush inside, with the occasional blitz or stunt. Coaches spend so much time adding all the little bells and whistles that COULD be used, but in the end, most of the time, they rush 4 guys in a pass rush line with 2 of them lined up inside (3 technique and 1 technique) and 2 outside (wide 5 to 9 techniques). Maybe we make a play or two per game, but we probably miss more plays than that due to all the extra studying and practice time spent on techniques and alignments that we hardly use. Is it worth worrying about a fraction of the 30% of the plays (which also includes goalline and short yardage alignments)? Or do you just draft the best rush guy in the draft and turn him lose.

I agree. But is that a fit or a force fit? Tunsil and Ramsey would play near 100% of the time. Snap count counts too. Again, I'm happy if they get the best DL in the draft. I just can't figure out the best use of pick 3 if it isn't Tunsil.

[Steve]

It could be considered a force fit, but it really isn't.

1). It is far more common for a DB to play close to 100% of the downs then for a DL. You play 65-70 plays per game, and hopefully you want your best players to have some pass rush/explosion to make a splash play at the end of the game. No human being can play hard and do a sprinters start 60+ times and game and have any explosion left in their legs. So to a point, you have to rotate the pass rushers and OLB, or they have a lot of downs they simply are just on the field.

2). Those 30% of our defensive snaps that we don't spend in the 4 man front, are mostly in obvious run down and distances, against alignments where the other team is using formations and personnel that is favoring the run. So, the majority of those plays will probably be run. Of the rest, if you don't like Bosa dropping into coverage, don't drop him into coverage. Just ask him to rush. In the Wade Phillips 34D tree, the call is just whichever LB you want to rush coming after the alignment. So, if Bosa is our SAM LB, 34 Over Sam. You wouldn't ask Lawrence Taylor or Derrick Thomas in their primes to spend much time in pass coverage, so it's not unheard of.

Using the previous 20 years or so as a guide, 70% of the snaps (or more) are in the rush line, so that is over 770 snaps of about 1100 defensive snaps. Figure maybe 2/3 of those snaps are runs (220 more), leaving about 110 snaps all season, then we have 6 or 7 snaps per game where we even have to wonder if it is an issue, and most of those can be controlled by call or by substitution. And if we played a 43 D, probably 2 or 3 of those plays he would be dropping in zone blitzes/zone dogs anyway.

The issue with Bosa is really about whether you like him as a player or not. If you don't, then there is a real discussion. I can see if people want a more explosive pass rusher. Bosa is never going to be the next Lawrence Taylor or Derrick Thomas, exploding off the edge and flying into the backfield.

I do think he will more then make up for it as a run defender, which as I keep pointing out, is a huge problem for us. 3 games for sure (Minn, Cinci and GB) we lost because of poor run defense by our OLB, (several others if you are not just counting direct points allowed off of long runs).

Also, we can hold out waiting for that kind of pass rusher, but they don't come around every year. There isn't anyone like that in this years draft, and the only guys last year were Gregory and Raye, and I wouldn't have drafted them at 3 because of the drugs and various concerns as players. You can go years without one in the draft.

You can always find a reason to not take a guy, but if you look at what he does, can he help. Bosa upgrades our pass rush, because while he doesn't have an unlimited ceiling as a pass rusher, I still think he can be good, and part of a group. For the record, I don't think even one guy will make a difference as a pass rusher unless those other guys are there. He upgrades our effort and assignment football, which has been a huge problem for us. And he is a much better run defender then the OLB we have now.

As far as Ramsey goes, I don't think he is as good a fit for us as some other teams, and he is not the playmaker some make him out to be, so you are projecting him to be that kind of player. I would put him on a similar development time line to Weddle, a guy who can contribute right away, but is probably going to take a couple of years to fully develop. He has a long way to go to picking up the mental side of things, and refine his technique. Not a bad pick, but not a huge need either.

Tunsil, I have some misgivings against, and we also have OT who can play. He is an upgrade, but mostly on the assumption that he is healthy, but you never know about that until it happens. And the OL needs someone to step up at C, or adding him really doesn't fix much.

If you want to add a player, Myles Jack certainly needs to be in the discussion. Not an immediate need as a starting ILB, unless you view him as a SS or nickle DB, but even as a LB adds a lot of speed and coverage ability, although he still needs some technique work. He lacks an ideal spot in the base D, but he can be used in a ton of different ways, and can be an every down player. He is just a better fit as a Will LB in a cover 2 - 43 D, but that doesn't mean he can't help us. He is the kind of guy you have to have a plan for, and he is probably not going to be an every down player as a rookie, due to the knee and his general inexperience. But in a couple of years, I can see him being the LB/S equivalent of a dominant cover CB. You know, take away half of a field type of guy as an underneath coverage defender.

There are pluses and minuses to all of these guys, no matter who you like.

[Formula 21]

There are pluses and minuses to all of these guys, no matter who you like.

That's my issue. Too many really good guys, not one great guy at 3. And from what I can see, pick 3 has been hit or miss in the last few drafts. That's discouraging too.

[Thunder Thighs]

Bosa would play the role of Jarrett Johnson, with better pass rush capabilities. Not sure that would be worth the #3 pick.

Would not want him as a DE. Watch the game he had against Mich St last year. Bosa was taken out of the game by a good o-line, and quite frankly, he really sucked in that game.

[Steve]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pKSG8MbJ38c

here are the isolation on Bosa from that game.

I think you might be reading too much into that game. One, you should never read too much into any single game, since everyone has a bad day once in a while.

I agree he is largely invisible vs MSU, and was for a lot of his senior year. But when you watch, keep in mind how often MSU goes to the offensive left side. OSU lines up Bosa almost exclusively on the defensive left side (offensive right), so teams are deliberately running away from him. They are doing it to avoid him. Several of these youtube isolation's from his senior year show that teams are just not giving him the chance to make a play. Also, Bosa is not a guy who abandons his own position to try and make a play, like our current OLB often do. That has been a huge problem in recent memory. It is the biggest reason for our run D being so bad.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KzD1MqWjFaQ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nOtJjy7uUW0