Bold Prediction About Our Defense - D Packages And Starters

[Steve]

There is a whole lot of meat here Steve.

What about a sub package with 2 LBs, understanding that this often involves Phillips or whoever blurring the line between LB & S.

What about 4/3 Over vs 4/3 Under, vis a vis 4/3 3/4 Hybrid w/Rush LB ?

Much thanks...getting smarter every day.

Fist is the 43 vs 34 over under thing. The middle upper figure shows the classic 43 D. The middle lower the classic 34 D. So in the 43, there are 4 DL covering the 5 OL, and the LB are out in space. In the 34 there are only 3 big guys, so there is more space for the OL to block the LB behind.

To the left and the right are the "adjustments" from the regular alignment. In the 43 you move the DT "over" to the strong side, or "under" to the weak side. In the 34 you are shifting the DE on the TE side (Strong side) over to the NT, and the 34 "under" shift is you shift the under DT closer to the NT.

In the right (under) side, the DT are both over the C an LG. In the under 34 the DE and NT are over the LG and C. If the Will LB is strictly a pass rusher, then there the 34 and 43 under are the same defense. You call the positions something different, they are the same assignments.

Same thing with the 43 and 34 over. The big DL cover up the RG and C. So the 34 and 43 Over are the same defense, or at least the assignments are the same.

These formations are nothing new, NFL teams have been using over and under shifts since about 1960's. And they didn't call it a 34 Defense back then, it was called a 52 defense, but it is exactly the same as I drew it up (End, tackle Nose guard, tackle, end) with 2 LB behind them. Nothing has changed in defenses since Tom Landry (DC Giants) and Steve Owens played a 6-1 defense (just 2 of Owens DE became LB instead of DL).

Personnel dictionary
34 position ...........................43 position
W- Will LB..........................E - Weak side DE
E - End .............................. E or T
N - Nose Tackle ....................always plays T
E - End .............................. E or T
S - Sam LB .......................... Sam LB
M - Mike LB .......................... Will LB
Ma - Mack LB ....................... Mike LB

look at the Nickle defenses, the primary defense of the NFL
nickel D.png
nickel D is about the same thing. The shaded circles are the guys who typically come off the field. 34 teams take their NT off the field, and move a new DB on the field ($) and the 43 team takes one of their LB now a SS/nickel DB aligns wider than the 43 SAM LB did, but it is the same assignments.

[Steve]

There is a whole lot of meat here Steve.

What about a sub package with 2 LBs, understanding that this often involves Phillips or whoever blurring the line between LB & S.

What about 4/3 Over vs 4/3 Under, vis a vis 4/3 3/4 Hybrid w/Rush LB ?

Much thanks...getting smarter every day.

The Rush LB is just a name for a DE. 34 teams will typically have their Lawrence Taylor or Derrick Thomas, best LB who really never covers anyone. How often did Phillips ask Von Miller to drop into pass coverage? He does, but not very much. And in today's NFL, DE who can run get asked to drop into pass coverage as part of the zone blitz. So a rush LB is just a guy who is such a good pass rusher you are not asking them to do much more than rush the QB.

Oh, and a lot of them let the guy use a 2 point stance. Many of them played LB and prefer to rush out of a 2 point vs a 3 point stance where they line up in a pseudo sprinters stance.

I used to say that rush LB or 34 LB would line up wider than a 4 man DE would, but with guys like James Harrison and Ingram, a lot of those teams don't bother. They line up exactly in the same spot.

So some teams like to give special names to players to help distinguish who is who in the playbook. In the 1980's 49ers D, they called the LEO rush LB an ELEPHANT. They are both outside players who line up in a 2 or 3 point stance and rush the QB off the edge, and rarely drop into pass coverage. Usually, they rush from the weak side, but not always.

Brings me to the OTTO LB. It confuses people a lot, since it is not a not called a SAM.

First, remember that the 34 part of our D really has 2 OLB. The LEO, who is a DE, but has the same assignments as a 34 weak side OLB. The SAM OLB, who plays DE in the 34 rush line, who is asked to drop into some pass coverage in the base D.

A football purist would argue that a Strong Safety ($), strongside DE or strong-side LB (SAM) would ALWAYS align on the TE side of the line. If teams play a 2 TE alignment, with TE to each side, then usually you declare the strength to the better blockers side. It is usually all about taking on and defeating blocks.

Apparently, Bradley is a purist. In Seattle, the SAM LB was always over the TE. But in Jacksonville, either he or his DC (Todd Walsh), or someone else on the staff decided they would start to align the SAM LB to either side. So, the OTTO LB was born.

An OTTO is a SAM LB who will line up over the weak side of a formation. That's it.

Sometimes offenses like to beat up on old school defenses with the "bunch crunch". The offense puts the TE to one side, lets the D declare strength, then with a bunch alignment to the otherside, they outnumber the D with weaker pass defenders to the other side. The OTTO thing just tells us they can align to either side of the formation. Just think of it as when the 2nd 34 LB (the drop LB), who has to cover more than the "rush" LB.

[wu-dai clan]

Thanks for the breakdown, Steve...awesome stuff.

[Sgt Schultz]

Thanks Steve you finally un-confused me about OTTO.

[Steve]

There is a whole lot of meat here Steve.

What about a sub package with 2 LBs, understanding that this often involves Phillips or whoever blurring the line between LB & S.

NFL teams in the 1950 used to play either a 6-1 or 5-2 defense, and they ran most of the time. Then 43, then 34 defense when teams started throwing more passes. Then in the 1980's, teams started playing mostly sub packages. The defenses have not really changed, the players are just getting smaller and faster. First the DL turned into LB. Now the LB who are off the line are turning into DB. Some of the are S, but some teams use CB.

Either way, a DB is smaller and can run with receivers, and that is the name of the game. And with NFL teams embracing the option (called the zone read) and RPO (which is just an option pass), you beat the option teams in college with speed on D.

A lot of that is the result of Buddy Ryan and the 1985 Bears. The famed 46 defenses is a Double Eagle front that is now almost always called a Bear front. It is hard to block the stacked LB behind 2 DL who are aligned as 3 tech and are trying to keep the LB behind them free. It also puts everyone man on man in terms of pass protection. Buddy then brought his strong Safety (#46 Doug Plank) and used him like a LB. The DL has all the OL covered with a big body. SS covers the backside run, the Will LB was moved around to rush the QB, and O doesn't know who to block (Sam, Will or both). Add in a SS or Mike blitz........ You just couldn't block everyone.

The way to beat the 46 is to stop playing 2 RB in the backfield. Either 2 TE, or 2 RB. If you remember the 46 D was knocking QB out of games and it was ruining seasons, and overnight the FB was a dead formation because it was harder for teams to attack offenses with the blitz. And if you spread out the bigger, better pass rushers, it gives the RB more room to run against players who are not very good run defenders.


44 dime.png
The old wisdom was that if the other team has nickel and dime personnel on the field, we should run at it. All things being equal that works. However, they are rarely equal. If you watch closely, James and Phillips are not very good at taking on blocks, but how often do FB or TE actually get to them to block? When I first started watching the NFL, announcers used to get all fired up when pulling OG was going to run a DB down on a sweep, but then almost always the OL missed. It takes a lot of skill to hit a moving target, even if it is a "slower" DE or LB. If the guy is a S or CB, it is that much harder.

We play Phillips and ask him to play LB. Call it Dime LB, or dime, or whatever, he is a LB. Now, if a team is going into a personnel group with several TE and they are going to run right at him, you will sub him out. But if the other team is playing 3 or 4 WR (and NFL teams play 70-75% 3 WR), Phillips is going to matchup better than a traditional LB would.

We will often align a DB a bit deeper than a LB, but the gap assignments in the run game are the same, and the coverage assignment is the same. And since most TE and FB on NFL rosters can't block, it is not much of a mismatch if they want to run at him. he can often slip the block. Not to mention when we have our nickel or dime personnel on the field, we run a lot of plays down, because if you don't get our little guys blocked, we are too fast for your big heavy guys.

Which is partly why we drafted Kyzir White. You can call Kyzir a LB if you want, but he played S in college. His college highlights are mostly of him intercepting passes being thrown away when he is playing as a cover 2 S. The only thing is we keep adding S who can run like a deer, and can play the run and pass. Watkins, Phillips, James, Jenkins, Pickett. So, unless they change the rule about letting defenses sub when offenses do, we can bring our DB off and bring the LB on to matchup.

Even though we are playing dime personnel, we are playing the old 44 defense. We just use Phillips, King and James like LB. We play 1 true LB, but why get hung up on whether they are a Mike or a Will. It is worth remembering that Davis and Brown both have played Mike before. Brown filled in for Perryman on long yardage situations (notice I didn't say passing situations, all downs are passing situations in the NFL now). Davis called the Panthers D some years when Kuekley was out. The only way teams can matchup our numbers inside is if they remove potential blockers out of the box, but that means they have fewer blockers.

[Fleet]

We need to do a donations collection here and buy Steve a nice bottle of wine. He just makes us all better football fans. Thanks Steve. I really appreciate the passion you have for the game. And for teaching us.

[Steve]

Base D - bolded guys on bubble

9 DL
DE - Bosa, Rochelle, Lanier
3 tech - Tillery, Jones, Broughton
NT -Mebane, Square
Leo - Ingram, Nwosu, Egbule

Keep in mind, that Lanier, Rochelle, Bosa and Ingram all line up as 3 technique DT on late downs, and Square can too.
I think Square will be more of a utlity DL and line up across the line as a run down guy, and subbing for Mebane on some passing downs. When we go with more of a pass rush look, I expect Jones will get some looks at the NT or as a 2nd 3 tech DT.

7 LB (Nwosu and Egbule are listed among the DL too).
OTTO- Nwosu, Egbule
Mike - Perryman, Brown, Tranquill
Will - Davis, White

Note, Richard Smith, the LB coach wants all the LB to know all the assignments for all 3 positions. If you have to wonder why see last year. The only player in my mind that is really interchangeable would be Egbule, but that depends on how he adjusts to the NFL. He is best suited at OTTO. I also think while I have Brown listed as 2nd on the depth Chart, if he doesn't play well, they may just give up on him. That is based on the fact that it is too soon to give up on White, they are paying Davis too much (and is too good an influence on the other young guys), so that leaves Brown as the odd man out. If he plays well, he should still make the roster. Eventually I see Tranquill as sort of an Andrew Gachkar, solid ST guy who can get snaps as a sub down LB vs the pass and backup ILB.

I expect that the Wills and Mikes will be used somewhat interchangeably, but we don't use the OTTO that much, so Egbule and Nwosu will probably see as much time as edge rushers allowing our other DE to slide inside and come in waves. Bosa and Ingram will get as many snaps as we can stand up to the point we are trying to keep them fresh, but Bosa, Lanier and

10 DB (Watkins is listed at CB and S)
LCB - Williams, Davis
NCB - King, Watkins
SS - James, Jenkins
FS - Adderley, Pickett, Watkins
Dime LB/S - Phillips, Jenkins, Watkins
RCB - Hayward, probably keep a couple of PS guys just in case.

LCB is going to be a great TC battle, and that allows us some depth with the loser playing in the long down and distance nickel situations and matching up vs more classic outside guys. Watkins and King can both play CB too.

Total 26

The big thing that I see in this roster as opposed to the last 2 season, there is a lot more flexibility. Guys like Watkins don't excite much on paper, but they are good players who are athletic and bring a lot of versatility. He has a legit shot at winning the FS spot, but I think he can be a CB or a any of the other S spots too, even though he isn't going to start at any of them. The rest is just going to depend on how many other guys come on. If the CB can start to really play better in man coverage, we could start to give teams a lot of problems reading our D.

[Topcat]

Fist is the 43 vs 34 over under thing. The middle upper figure shows the classic 43 D. The middle lower the classic 34 D. So in the 43, there are 4 DL covering the 5 OL, and the LB are out in space. In the 34 there are only 3 big guys, so there is more space for the OL to block the LB behind.

To the left and the right are the "adjustments" from the regular alignment. In the 43 you move the DT "over" to the strong side, or "under" to the weak side. In the 34 you are shifting the DE on the TE side (Strong side) over to the NT, and the 34 "under" shift is you shift the under DT closer to the NT.

In the right (under) side, the DT are both over the C an LG. In the under 34 the DE and NT are over the LG and C. If the Will LB is strictly a pass rusher, then there the 34 and 43 under are the same defense. You call the positions something different, they are the same assignments.

Same thing with the 43 and 34 over. The big DL cover up the RG and C. So the 34 and 43 Over are the same defense, or at least the assignments are the same.

These formations are nothing new, NFL teams have been using over and under shifts since about 1960's. And they didn't call it a 34 Defense back then, it was called a 52 defense, but it is exactly the same as I drew it up (End, tackle Nose guard, tackle, end) with 2 LB behind them. Nothing has changed in defenses since Tom Landry (DC Giants) and Steve Owens played a 6-1 defense (just 2 of Owens DE became LB instead of DL).

Personnel dictionary
34 position ...........................43 position
W- Will LB..........................E - Weak side DE
E - End .............................. E or T
N - Nose Tackle ....................always plays T
E - End .............................. E or T
S - Sam LB .......................... Sam LB
M - Mike LB .......................... Will LB
Ma - Mack LB ....................... Mike LB

look at the Nickle defenses, the primary defense of the NFL
nickel D.png
nickel D is about the same thing. The shaded circles are the guys who typically come off the field. 34 teams take their NT off the field, and move a new DB on the field ($) and the 43 team takes one of their LB now a SS/nickel DB aligns wider than the 43 SAM LB did, but it is the same assignments.

Great work, Steve! Excellent!

[Formula 21]

Base D - bolded guys on bubble

9 DL
DE - Bosa, Rochelle, Lanier
3 tech - Tillery, Jones, Broughton
NT -Mebane, Square
Leo - Ingram, Nwosu, Egbule

Keep in mind, that Lanier, Rochelle, Bosa and Ingram all line up as 3 technique DT on late downs, and Square can too.
I think Square will be more of a utlity DL and line up across the line as a run down guy, and subbing for Mebane on some passing downs. When we go with more of a pass rush look, I expect Jones will get some looks at the NT or as a 2nd 3 tech DT.

7 LB (Nwosu and Egbule are listed among the DL too).
OTTO- Nwosu, Egbule
Mike - Perryman, Brown, Tranquill
Will - Davis, White

Note, Richard Smith, the LB coach wants all the LB to know all the assignments for all 3 positions. If you have to wonder why see last year. The only player in my mind that is really interchangeable would be Egbule, but that depends on how he adjusts to the NFL. He is best suited at OTTO. I also think while I have Brown listed as 2nd on the depth Chart, if he doesn't play well, they may just give up on him. That is based on the fact that it is too soon to give up on White, they are paying Davis too much (and is too good an influence on the other young guys), so that leaves Brown as the odd man out. If he plays well, he should still make the roster. Eventually I see Tranquill as sort of an Andrew Gachkar, solid ST guy who can get snaps as a sub down LB vs the pass and backup ILB.

I expect that the Wills and Mikes will be used somewhat interchangeably, but we don't use the OTTO that much, so Egbule and Nwosu will probably see as much time as edge rushers allowing our other DE to slide inside and come in waves. Bosa and Ingram will get as many snaps as we can stand up to the point we are trying to keep them fresh, but Bosa, Lanier and

10 DB (Watkins is listed at CB and S)
LCB - Williams, Davis
NCB - King, Watkins
SS - James, Jenkins
FS - Adderley, Pickett, Watkins
Dime LB/S - Phillips, Jenkins, Watkins
RCB - Hayward, probably keep a couple of PS guys just in case.

LCB is going to be a great TC battle, and that allows us some depth with the loser playing in the long down and distance nickel situations and matching up vs more classic outside guys. Watkins and King can both play CB too.

Total 26

The big thing that I see in this roster as opposed to the last 2 season, there is a lot more flexibility. Guys like Watkins don't excite much on paper, but they are good players who are athletic and bring a lot of versatility. He has a legit shot at winning the FS spot, but I think he can be a CB or a any of the other S spots too, even though he isn't going to start at any of them. The rest is just going to depend on how many other guys come on. If the CB can start to really play better in man coverage, we could start to give teams a lot of problems reading our D.

Its going to suck to lose some of those players. Brown, ouch. Broughton,ouch. Tranquill, ouch.

[Panamamike]

Its going to suck to lose some of those players. Brown, ouch. Broughton,ouch. Tranquill, ouch.

I dont think broughton, brown, and especially tranquill are on the bubble at all. my .02. i may be biased as broughton was.one of my fav late picks. we shall see how it plays out.

[Formula 21]

I look forward to seeing Broughton in exhibition play. I too think he was underrated.

[like54ninjas]

I am also high on Cortez. He not only makes the 53 but makes an impact in the DT rotation.