Ranking The Defensive Triplets

[Fleet]

I was surprised Hayward turned out to be so good with us. Because he was primarily a slot guy in GB wasnt he? He wasnt the perimeter player he turned out to be with us. He really evolved with us. We tend to do a pretty good job developing our DBs. Be nice to have that same ability with our OL. lol

[Steve]

GB keeps trying to turn every DB in sight into a press CB, and they keep not working out. GB ended up putting him in the slot because he couldn't press, so against slot guys it was less and an issue.

Then we got him into Pagano's system that plays a lot of pattern reading and off coverage and he blossomed in a system that fit his skills.

FWIW, a lot of old school NFL GM's/front office types were saying they hated the extension we gave Hayward. Again, a lot of teams don't feel you should pay off CB big money, which is why Carolina let Norman go. NE let Assante Samuel go because they didn't want to pay big money to a zone CB, then went out and got Browner and Revis (paying them pretty good money) because they went to a press coverage scheme and knocked every WR in the AFC off their routes.

Lately, we seem to be able to develop players pretty well. Seems like every position is doing well except OL, and even that is making progress if too slowly.

I think the big point right now is that the advantage of playing zone D that we favor is that it is pretty simple and doesn't require the elite athletes to be coverage guys. The old cover 2 (over/under) D used by TB/Colts and others used to do the same thing. Teams spent mid and late round picks for small, quick (but slow) CB, and could afford to spend high picks elsewhere. They covered well, but come playoff time never really could step it up and win playoff games.

I just don't want to see us stuck in the same rut.

Of course, if we can win some playoff games, doing the cover 6 thing with James would be a really cool way of getting around that. I do think James will be used in some new ways this season, but we will probably always use him in a lot of cover 6.

[Heatmiser]

I think James is already the best player on the defense and it will only get more and more clear as time goes by. What a great pick by Telesco.

TG

[wu-dai clan]

GB keeps trying to turn every DB in sight into a press CB, and they keep not working out. GB ended up putting him in the slot because he couldn't press, so against slot guys it was less and an issue.

Then we got him into Pagano's system that plays a lot of pattern reading and off coverage and he blossomed in a system that fit his skills.

FWIW, a lot of old school NFL GM's/front office types were saying they hated the extension we gave Hayward. Again, a lot of teams don't feel you should pay off CB big money, which is why Carolina let Norman go. NE let Assante Samuel go because they didn't want to pay big money to a zone CB, then went out and got Browner and Revis (paying them pretty good money) because they went to a press coverage scheme and knocked every WR in the AFC off their routes.

Lately, we seem to be able to develop players pretty well. Seems like every position is doing well except OL, and even that is making progress if too slowly.

I think the big point right now is that the advantage of playing zone D that we favor is that it is pretty simple and doesn't require the elite athletes to be coverage guys. The old cover 2 (over/under) D used by TB/Colts and others used to do the same thing. Teams spent mid and late round picks for small, quick (but slow) CB, and could afford to spend high picks elsewhere. They covered well, but come playoff time never really could step it up and win playoff games.

I just don't want to see us stuck in the same rut.

Of course, if we can win some playoff games, doing the cover 6 thing with James would be a really cool way of getting around that. I do think James will be used in some new ways this season, but we will probably always use him in a lot of cover 6.

What percentage of snaps do you see us playing cover 6 ?

I still need some snaps for my modern defense LBs and my NASCAR front four.

[powderblueboy]

The top three thing is more a fan lovefest kinda thing. I don't think there is much association with it and actually winning.

Plenty of teams have won SB without having the best top 3 on either side of the ball. Has NE EVER been at the top of a list? How about the great Steelers teams in the 70's, they ran a 2 RB system (Rocky Blier and Franco Harris), and their TE was bascially an extra OL who averaged 1 catch per game.

Teams that win the SB tend to be the better-balanced teams. If a team relies too much on any one area, then a good team can usually find a way to overcome that come playoff time. If a team is too weak in one area, the playoff teams will exploit that weakness (see OL and DL vs Pats).

I love the triplets we have on both O and D, but the real strength is that we deep roster across the board. The problem with deep rosters is do we have the high-end talent to compete? We will see about it, and I do mean the OL and DT.

That is not to say that we have to have elite players everywhere. On last year's Pat's SB winning teams, name any of their starting OL not named Trent Brown? How about the year before replacing Brown's name with Nate Solder?

Lynn Swann, John Stallworth, Franco Harris.........not bad

Joe Green, Jack Lambert, Jack Ham or Mel Blount.....that group might have snuck into a top 5 ranking.

[Steve]

What percentage of snaps do you see us playing cover 6 ?

I still need some snaps for my modern defense LBs and my NASCAR front four.

Cover 6 refers to us playing 3 short zones and 3 deep zones, with James in man coverage vs the #2 receiver on his side. We played it a ton last year. I saw one estimate at 75% of the time (I think that is a bit high). We can play it regardless of the personnel group.

The thing to remember when thinking of playing the base D and the LB is how many LB do you want to have to cover a WR. If they go with 11 personnel how would we match up? Basically, with today's pass catching TE (many of whom block like shit), you pretty much have to go with at least nickel personnel. We have chosen to go dime most of the time.

In 2017, we played nickel as our predominant subpackage then switched to mostly dime vs the Giants (when we started winning). For the season we ended up in nickel about 25% of the time, and dime about 50% of the time. That leaves short yardage and base D for the remaining 25% of the time.

In 2018, Dime was about 60% of the snaps, nickel about 20% of the time, and the rest of our packages, about 20%.

Regardless of what personnel group we are in, we play mostly zone D. Most of the time, it is cover 3 or cover 6, although, against Pitt, we dropped James back to help out in some cover 2 in the 2nd half, and while he didn't make a lot of plays, you might have noticed Pitt stopped moving the ball at will against us.

The thing is that there are just not many teams that have the FB and TE to play the slobbering knockers against our dime package. Our DB attack the line so fast that the blockers either don't get their hands on them or if they do, don't have enough leverage to get them out of their gaps. You can tell me that they can't stand in there and hold their ground vs big players, that teams will kick us up and down the field. But I have 2 seasons of defensive stats that say otherwise.

A big part of our problem playing in the 1st Baltimore game was we tried to go big vs big. We left our base personnel in a lot, and our LB don't attack the line very well. They did OK, and kept Baltimore in check, but it wasn't pretty. But in the playoff game, against the best TE group in the NFL, our S and King were attacking their gaps, with the DL stunting into gaps and they never had an answer for it. When they guessed right, they got a few decent runs, but when our guys stayed gap sound and attacked. You saw the result, we beat the most run-oriented team, with one of the bigger offenses at their own game. And we didn't just out-quick them, we out-hit them.

Vs NE the DL, did not do a good job of attacking the line and the LB and DB played flat-footed. Some of that was being spent. A bunch of DB and guys who played with great focus and energy for 3.5 quarters against a Baltimore and 2 cross country trips were going to be as energetic and active. Plus, NE did a really good job of making a game plan that beats whatever tendencies they had. That got their big guys on the field and Trent Brown and Gronk just pushed our DL and LB into the New Hampshire.

That being said, I wouldn't necessarily change the strategy. Go dime. It worked really well most of the season because it makes our D incredibly fast. We have the DB who make the dime go. It's who we have become. And most NFL teams don't have the slobberknockers to run us out of it. Most NFL TE and FB are just guys filling out the roster. Gronk and Brown are both out of NE. We have some LB, and we can certainly mix up some personnel groups if we need to. But make teams stop what we do best.

We need to stop cowering in fear saying we don't like the matchup of 2TE vs our dime, and tell the AFC to go ahead and run the ball right at us. We're ready for it, and by the way when that shit doesn't work, you can't throw against us either.

[Fleet]

Steve i doubt you check your notifications but when you get some time can you go over your own personal projections regarding Base and Sub D packages? Situational D packages etc. Obvioulsy its early and we dont know who makes the roster but maybe just post your expectations?

I bumped the D thread to hopefully start discussing this more as a community.

[wu-dai clan]

Thanks for the great detail, Steve.
I will study.

[blueman]

"We" don't match up well against 2 TE sets is reshaping history a bit, as none of the LBs we had to field in that NE game will be back on the team, likely ever. That "we" did suck so hard only highlights the value of having quality players at every position to win it all, but including at LB. Hoping for a matchup with better health for us!

[wu-dai clan]

"We" don't match up well against 2 TE sets is reshaping history a bit, as none of the LBs we had to field in that NE game will be back on the team, likely ever. That "we" did suck so hard only highlights the value of having quality players at every position to win it all, but including at LB. Hoping for a matchup with better health for us!

Waiting for Steve
to straighten all this shit out.

Whoever we throw out there,
opponents will use personnel,
scheme and motion,
to try to create favorable matchups.

I am with you blue...it's too early to try to figure out which DBs, LBs will rise.

This will be exciting as it unfolds.

:koolaid:

[Panamamike]

NE also does not have one of the better blocking TEs in Gronk anymore.

[richpjr]

NE also does not have one of the better blocking TEs in Gronk anymore.

Unless he un-retires after camp is over...