Offensive Line Discussion

[Budsman]

Can Okung even play RT?

If Okung can't play RT he wouldn't be in the nfl. :sigh:

the right question is will he want to, and for the opportunity to dominate and win super bowls he very well may. Assuming he doesn't have another bout of clots and retires and we're really screwed.

[Xenos]

If Okung can't play RT he wouldn't be in the nfl. :sigh:

the right question is will he want to, and for the opportunity to dominate and win super bowls he very well may. Assuming he doesn't have another bout of clots and retires and we're really screwed.

No, he's in the NFL because he plays the coveted position of LT well. Not because he's a utility player or necessarily versatile. Especially harder now since he's seasoned vet in his 30s who's never played any other position before.

[Xenos]

Most players can make the move from right to left.

Has he ever actually done it, not to my knowledge.

Typically, if you are going to move a player, the guy who is the better player plays LT and the other guy moves over. In this case Okung is a pretty good LT, Williams is probably the best LT in football. So, going off the best player stays in position, Williams would stay LT and Okung would have to switch.

That being said, at the stage of their careers, someone is going to have to "take one for the team" and make the transition. Okung is about as good an athlete as Williams, but has never been as consistent or as dominant as a run or pass blocker.

I'm not sure how frequently a seasoned vet in his 30s like Okung have made a positional switch though. It's one thing if they were fresh out of college but it's another when they've only played one position their entire career. Especially a premiere position like LT. I think you have to account years of instilled muscle memory.

[Steve]

The majority of players make the switch and can move from side to side. Some can't. You don't know if he can until he tries. Yes, it is harder for players to make the switch the older they get. That is true of any acquired skill since that is how the central nervous system works. In the grand scheme of things, Okung is pretty young. Old for the NFL, but not old for a person.

The bigger issue is probably the prestige of being the LT. Will Okung want to be the 2nd best OT on the team? Who knows? I do think he is probably more receptive to this than he would have been due to the PE. I think he realizes the chance the team has, and that he probably doesn't want them to miss out just because of him.

If Okung can't make the move, then you decide if we put the best OT at RT, rather than LT. But there is no way to guess beforehand. The same LT/RT thing is true for Williams, and he is the best LT in football. All things being equal, he is a far better player than Okung, so he is a better fit on either side. If you let the fear of not going after Williams be forced by the fact that neither has played RT before. We run the risk of Okung not being ready and Scott or Tevi being the starting LT come day 1. I like both Scott and Tevi, and think, in time, both could be solid OT for us. I would still rather trade for Williams.

The thing is that Williams may be the only decent OT who is available. It is rare that we can get an upgrade in TC, let alone a player of Williams quality. Worse, worse case, Williams is an upgrade over Okung, and I would start him in place of Okung. Then you figure out the LT situation next season.

These days, the difference between LT and RT is pretty nonexistent anyway. The only difference is the mechanics of the technique is backward for LT/RT. Same is true for LG and RG. TE flip flop all the time. RB and WR run their techniques on both sides. Most NFL players spend some time learning the opposite techniques, although, as you might guess, starting LT is probably the one exception, since they will never be expected to play any other position unless they run into a position as we have. But plenty of RT in the league has played LT in their HS and college play, and only make the switch when they move to the NFL. A lot of NFL teams flip flop their best pass rusher so they face the RT, and most will try to have two top edge rushers to attack an offense. We need to upgrade the OT position, either through Tevi improving, or by adding a new player. Okung/Williams is the only available upgrade (right now) at RT.

[Xenos]

The majority of players make the switch and can move from side to side. Some can't. You don't know if he can until he tries. Yes, it is harder for players to make the switch the older they get. That is true of any acquired skill since that is how the central nervous system works. In the grand scheme of things, Okung is pretty young. Old for the NFL, but not old for a person.

The bigger issue is probably the prestige of being the LT. Will Okung want to be the 2nd best OT on the team? Who knows? I do think he is probably more receptive to this than he would have been due to the PE. I think he realizes the chance the team has, and that he probably doesn't want them to miss out just because of him.

If Okung can't make the move, then you decide if we put the best OT at RT, rather than LT. But there is no way to guess beforehand. The same LT/RT thing is true for Williams, and he is the best LT in football. All things being equal, he is a far better player than Okung, so he is a better fit on either side. If you let the fear of not going after Williams be forced by the fact that neither has played RT before. We run the risk of Okung not being ready and Scott or Tevi being the starting LT come day 1. I like both Scott and Tevi, and think, in time, both could be solid OT for us. I would still rather trade for Williams.

The thing is that Williams may be the only decent OT who is available. It is rare that we can get an upgrade in TC, let alone a player of Williams quality. Worse, worse case, Williams is an upgrade over Okung, and I would start him in place of Okung. Then you figure out the LT situation next season.

These days, the difference between LT and RT is pretty nonexistent anyway. The only difference is the mechanics of the technique is backward for LT/RT. Same is true for LG and RG. TE flip flop all the time. RB and WR run their techniques on both sides. Most NFL players spend some time learning the opposite techniques, although, as you might guess, starting LT is probably the one exception, since they will never be expected to play any other position unless they run into a position as we have. But plenty of RT in the league has played LT in their HS and college play, and only make the switch when they move to the NFL. A lot of NFL teams flip flop their best pass rusher so they face the RT, and most will try to have two top edge rushers to attack an offense. We need to upgrade the OT position, either through Tevi improving, or by adding a new player. Okung/Williams is the only available upgrade (right now) at RT.

Writing on an iPad right now so I can't address this as thoroughly as I would like. But my fear of trading for Trent Williams is built more on the practicality of the situation, not just the positional change.

1) If you know how Snyder and Bruce Allen operates, then you should know that they're petty guys who's not going to trade a player because they want to teach said player a lesson. The chance of Washington trading Williams is less than us trading Gordon. So it's moot at this point.
2) Even if they were willing, it would be for more capital than what I think we should give up i.e. at most a 4th rounder.
3) A low pick because you're getting someone who is more injury prone and more salary cap heavy than Okung. There is also a good possibility that he will start the season the PUP and miss games, which would put us in the same situation as with Okung. Uncertainty about his health and availability. Maybe he'll miss no games or only some. Or maybe he'll miss most of the season and we wasted a pick and salary cap. The latter is particularly important since there are so many guys coming up for new contracts. Personally I wouldn't even have offered Gordon a 10 mil a year contract but that's just me.

All things that TT probably has to consider and possibly more. So while it is very tempting to trade for one of the best LTs (when healthy) in the game, there are probably better options IMO. One of the Eagle tackles that you had previously mentioned. Who knows, maybe we'll trade for a premiere guard instead and turn into a quick strike team since Rivers can negate edge pressure with his quick release. Just gotta make sure that interior OL gives him room to step inside.

edit: also do you have some numbers showing the majority of players making positional switches? Age would be an important variable. Like I mentioned, I am sure it happens earlier on in someone's career i.e. Zach Martin going from LT to RG when he was drafted by the Cowboys.

[Maniaque 6]

T. Williams for M. Gordon, I would do it right away
Remember C. Portis for C. Bailey ?
If your LT play RT, it's at least very positive

[Steve]

Writing on an iPad right now so I can't address this as thoroughly as I would like. But my fear of trading for Trent Williams is built more on the practicality of the situation, not just the positional change.

1) If you know how Snyder and Bruce Allen operates, then you should know that they're petty guys who's not going to trade a player because they want to teach said player a lesson. The chance of Washington trading Williams is less than us trading Gordon. So it's moot at this point.
2) Even if they were willing, it would be for more capital than what I think we should give up i.e. at most a 4th rounder.
3) A low pick because you're getting someone who is more injury prone and more salary cap heavy than Okung. There is also a good possibility that he will start the season the PUP and miss games, which would put us in the same situation as with Okung. Uncertainty about his health and availability. Maybe he'll miss no games or only some. Or maybe he'll miss most of the season and we wasted a pick and salary cap. The latter is particularly important since there are so many guys coming up for new contracts. Personally I wouldn't even have offered Gordon a 10 mil a year contract but that's just me.

All things that TT probably has to consider and possibly more. So while it is very tempting to trade for one of the best LTs (when healthy) in the game, there are probably better options IMO. One of the Eagle tackles that you had previously mentioned. Who knows, maybe we'll trade for a premiere guard instead and turn into a quick strike team since Rivers can negate edge pressure with his quick release. Just gotta make sure that interior OL gives him room to step inside.

edit: also do you have some numbers showing the majority of players making positional switches? Age would be an important variable. Like I mentioned, I am sure it happens earlier on in someone's career i.e. Zach Martin going from LT to RG when he was drafted by the Cowboys.

1). I think there is a chance that Washington will let Williams go. Yes, I agree about Snyder and Allen. They are the worst. At some point, they have to realize that Trent may just hang it up retire, and rather than play for DC anymore. At that point, they will be in MG3 mode, to get what they can for him. Snyder used to get along with Trent before, probably not so much now.

2). If they are realistic at all, they know something in the 3rd or 4th round range is competitive. I can't see another team giving up much more, and the point is to get what they can while they can still get anything at all.

From what I hear, they are letting Doug Williams do a lot more of the personnel moves, so he will at least have a say. And as much as many of us don't like that MG3 is a distraction for us, it is a much bigger deal for Washington. Williams is their best player by a mile, and the players are behind him, on both the contract side of things, as well as the medical staff. They need to try and get the team back on management's side, and they can't do that with Trent around. Washington is a team that is easily distracted since their season looks bleak already. They need to hold off a palace revolt.

3) I would expect, yes Trent Williams would miss a few games. He didn't have any of his usual surgeries as early as he should have this year, and he is way behind in his rehab. I am not sure that I would put it in quite the same book, because the PE thing and blood thinners are a whole different thing from the surgery that Trent had. Still, the point is valid, we almost certainly wouldn't get 16 games out of him unless you count playoff games too. The flip side of that is we could end up with both back for the playoff run, making the team really ready for a run at the SB.

One other thing to keep in mind, Trent is under contract for this season and next season, and while he is getting a bunch of money, he isn't that close to being the #1 paid OT. IT gets even more reasonable when you consider the considerable bonus gets accelerated vs DC cap, not ours. So, while it is mostly about this year, we could get another year out of him.

The Eagles trade is probably an end of TC thing as it becomes clear that they won't have roster space for everyone. They may be willing to put some guys inside at OG and keep them all so ...... we might be outta luck. As far as anyone else, right now it doesn't look like there is anyone else. Jeremy Parnell is the only other name that I can think of, and that is because he is still a FA. If we moved now, we might have him in time to learn the O. OTher than that, Williams might be the only other OT available.

It is worth remembering that most of the talk about Trent Williams is speculative. While the rumors are flying, Gruden said he didn't think he was being shopped, although it is clear he is deliberately being left out of the loop in DC, or was during FA. He found out they had signed Landon Collins when he was being taken down to do the press conference for the signing.

As far as the numbers with late-career changes, I don't have anything. Sorry. Mostly, I have the anicdotal stuff, plus at lower levels of football, the left right thing is not even considered a thing.

As far as players being forced to switch, it happens more than many people think. Late TC cuts, and vets hanging on to try and stay into the league means it happens to a lot of guys. Generally, I think it turns out OK. For some guys not so much, but many of them are at the end of the line as far as their skills go.

As far as Gordon goes, looking at the other salary cap #'s for RB, I think $10 mill is too much too, so you definitely are not alone there.To me, the upper $8 mil would have been more than reasonable.

[Panamamike]

I think they may replace the medical staff as that seems to be the root of the problem.

[Big Dog]

T. Williams for M. Gordon, I would do it right away
Remember C. Portis for C. Bailey ?
If your LT play RT, it's at least very positive

problem is Washington might not want to

[richpjr]

EBOgbphUcAM8Oq7?format=jpg&name=900x900.jpg

[Formula 21]

EBOgbphUcAM8Oq7?format=jpg&name=900x900.jpg

Nice job.

I'm curious to see where Justin Jones ends up. He may be a back up NT this year.

And Perryman has been downgraded?

[wu-dai clan]

First team issued unofficial depth chart.
Trent Scott OLT#1.
Dan Feeney OLG#1.
Forrest Lamp ORG#2.

In keeping with my theory that we will not have inexperience side by side...

Scott-Feeney-Pouncey-Lamp-Tevi.