2019 Other NFL and Super Bowl Discussion

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  • Boltjolt
    Dont let the PBs fool ya
    • Jun 2013
    • 26263
    • Henderson, NV
    • Send PM

    Originally posted by chaincrusher View Post

    The thought of the Chargers taking a QB in this year's draft is funny for moment, but it might be sad later if the Chargers actually draft one of these QB bozos. As I have repeatedly said, I do not love Herbert. I just like him more than Burrow, which is not saying all that much.

    Burrow's lack of elite arm talent has been commented upon by multiple draft pundits. It is not a new concept in the discussion of Burrow and it is as plain as day obvious when watching Burrow. I can't believe one poster actually maintained that Burrow had a strong arm, which I guess would be true if we were using Chad Pennington's post 4th shoulder surgery arm as the measuring stick.

    Please feel free to continue to advocate for a QB trade up to #1 overall strategy that has not worked once this century. Maybe we could bring back Frank Reich to call some more draw plays for us while we are at it. :banghead:
    Yea yea, same draft pundits that said Rivers arm wasn't good and he threw funny. Brees arm wasn't good,. Yada,yada,yada. You know how many times those guys are wrong?
    OFTEN!
    Burrows arm imo is better than Brees arm coming out.
    Its Iike the guy who doesn't do well in the bench press. You don't think teams are going to improve that? There is a reason they have a strength coach.

    Burrow will go #1 , even with the weak arm you refer to. Imo it's fine but ok, you don't like it.

    If we do or don't trade up for, Burrow I don't care. Can't see us doing that actually but he is way better than Herbert. I wouldn't use #6 on him. 37 maybe but he needs a lot of work. His footwork for one thing is bad

    Comment

    • dmac_bolt
      Day Tripper
      • May 2019
      • 10196
      • North of the Lagoon
      • Send PM

      Originally posted by chaincrusher View Post

      And let's look at those QBs you listed. Brees was drafted in the second round, Brady in the 6th, Cousins in the 4th, and Flutie in the 11th round, a round that no longer exists under the current draft format. I have no issues with where those QBs were drafted. Those drafting those particular QBs saw that there was risk associated with those QBs so they did not take them early in the first round, but they ultimately saw positive traits that they felt made them worthy of being drafted in a later round.

      Any draft pick has at least some chance of being unexpectedly great, but using examples of QBs that overperformed their draft slot to justify overlooking observable weaknesses in a player that should cause the player to be downgraded at least to some degree is simply not sound reasoning.

      Nobody is saying that Burrow should not be drafted at all. My position is that I would not take Burrow at #1 overall or even at #6 overall where the Chargers draft. I certainly do not want the Chargers to expend multiple draft picks to move up to get Burrow.

      Rivers does not have a rocket arm, but it is stronger than Burrow's and Rivers has the fastest timed release of any NFL QB, which makes his overall ball delivery time faster than it would otherwise be.

      Also, I would say that so far, through two seasons, Mayfield has proven my point, not yours, as a QB with some physical limitations being selected #1 overall. To this point, Mayfield has not proven to be worth anything close to the value of the #1 overall draft slot.

      The poster to whom you responded correctly noted that LSU had a superstar team. Your comparison of LSU's players to NFL players misses the point. The meaningful comparison is LSU's players to the players of LSU's opponents. LSU's receivers were very open very frequently, so Burrow could make easy tosses to them. That is not to say that he was not able to place the ball effectively into some smaller windows at times at the collegiate window because he was, but the NFL is a different animal.

      Burrow will not have time to order a pizza in the NFL like he did at LSU. His receivers will not be as open. The windows will be smaller and open for smaller amounts of time. For an NFL QB, Burrow has a below average to low average arm. In my view, his arm is not as good as that of any of the QBs you listed.

      All of that said, I think there is no reason why Burrow, who does have some positive traits, could not succeed in system that emphasizes the short passing game. But I am not taking taking such a QB with an early first round draft pick.
      not only would i take Burrow at #6, not only would I take him at #1, .. I would trade both of my #1s this year and next if it were that simple and cheap to get him. He's far superior to any of the QBs taken in the top10 the last 3 or 4 years, it doesn't look close to me. Great arm, great touch, great accuracy, athletic and can run some, i think you're 180 off the mark on this one. but what do i know.
      “Less is more? NO NO NO - MORE is MORE!”

      Comment


      • Originally posted by dmac_bolt View Post

        not only would i take Burrow at #6, not only would I take him at #1, .. I would trade both of my #1s this year and next if it were that simple and cheap to get him. He's far superior to any of the QBs taken in the top10 the last 3 or 4 years, it doesn't look close to me. Great arm, great touch, great accuracy, athletic and can run some, i think you're 180 off the mark on this one. but what do i know.
        I agree with you that Burrow is an accurate passer. I think he is more quick than fast, which is still useful. I think he is an average athlete for a QB. I do not get your comments on his arm strength at all. Herbert has a great arm (not legendary, but pretty great)--above average for an NFL QB. Josh Allen is an example of elite NFL arm strength in my view. There is a night and day difference between Herbert's arm and Burrow's arm.

        I also agree that arm strength is not the most important factor, but it is a factor. It is enough of a concern for me not to consider Burrow worthy of a high first round pick.

        I also agree that there have been a number of QBs that did very well even though they did not have a great arm. But those QBs were not typically drafted first overall or even, in many cases, in the first round.

        I can't get on board with selecting a player with a high first round draft pick that does not possess both superior athletic traits and superior film.

        Even with Bosa, who has been a very good player for us, I did not like him at #3 overall because I did not like his lack of athleticism. And even to this day, when Bosa just misses making plays, I find myself thinking that for all of his elite technique and great heart that he pours into playing, if he had just a bit more natural athletic ability, he would be that much better.

        If I am considering a move up to #1 overall, it needs to be for a player like Elway, Peyton Manning, Andrew Luck or like Trevor Lawrence after the next college season. And even then, it is a huge risk.

        Comment

        • richpjr
          Registered Charger Fan
          • Jun 2013
          • 21036
          • Nashville
          • Send PM

          Originally posted by chaincrusher View Post

          The thought of the Chargers taking a QB in this year's draft is funny for moment, but it might be sad later if the Chargers actually draft one of these QB bozos. As I have repeatedly said, I do not love Herbert. I just like him more than Burrow, which is not saying all that much.

          Burrow's lack of elite arm talent has been commented upon by multiple draft pundits. It is not a new concept in the discussion of Burrow and it is as plain as day obvious when watching Burrow. I can't believe one poster actually maintained that Burrow had a strong arm, which I guess would be true if we were using Chad Pennington's post 4th shoulder surgery arm as the measuring stick.

          Please feel free to continue to advocate for a QB trade up to #1 overall strategy that has not worked once this century. Maybe we could bring back Frank Reich to call some more draw plays for us while we are at it. :banghead:
          And those same pundits that say his arm is good enough to make every NFL throw, but not elite, are also the ones saying he checks every single other box you want in a QB and compare him to Montana. Hell yes we should draft him if he was somehow available!

          Comment

          • captaind
            Cook This Pork Chops
            • Jun 2013
            • 4418
            • Mars
            • Ball Holder
            • Send PM

            Originally posted by chaincrusher View Post

            I agree with you that Burrow is an accurate passer. I think he is more quick than fast, which is still useful. I think he is an average athlete for a QB. I do not get your comments on his arm strength at all. Herbert has a great arm (not legendary, but pretty great)--above average for an NFL QB. Josh Allen is an example of elite NFL arm strength in my view. There is a night and day difference between Herbert's arm and Burrow's arm.

            I also agree that arm strength is not the most important factor, but it is a factor. It is enough of a concern for me not to consider Burrow worthy of a high first round pick.

            I also agree that there have been a number of QBs that did very well even though they did not have a great arm. But those QBs were not typically drafted first overall or even, in many cases, in the first round.

            I can't get on board with selecting a player with a high first round draft pick that does not possess both superior athletic traits and superior film.

            Even with Bosa, who has been a very good player for us, I did not like him at #3 overall because I did not like his lack of athleticism. And even to this day, when Bosa just misses making plays, I find myself thinking that for all of his elite technique and great heart that he pours into playing, if he had just a bit more natural athletic ability, he would be that much better.

            If I am considering a move up to #1 overall, it needs to be for a player like Elway, Peyton Manning, Andrew Luck or like Trevor Lawrence after the next college season. And even then, it is a huge risk.
            I think you adopt contrary opinions just for the purpose of arguing with people.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by captaind View Post

              I think you adopt contrary opinions just for the purpose of arguing with people.
              You are mistaken.

              My view of high first round draft picks is really fairly simple and I try to apply it consistently. The player needs to have both superor athletic traits and superior film. Without the superior athletic traits, there is some risk that the player may be a really great college level player, but that the player's lack of athleticism may catch up to him at the NFL level. Without superior film, there is at least some question regarding whether or not the player will ever capitalize on his superior athletic ability. The added risk associated with players lacking either some degree of relevant athletic ability or superior film is enough for me to drop the player down some in terms of where I think the player should be drafted.

              I would be the first to admit that there are plenty of cases where a lack of athletic ability ends up not being a significant impediment to a player's career. But I do not prefer a draft strategy that simply assumes that the player will be able to overcome his athletic limitations.

              So, for example, there was a poster that compared Burrow to Joe Montana. And I would say that that is possible, but could we please recognize that Joe Montana was drafted in the third round because he had perceived limitations?

              At the end of the day, I would not take Burrow with a high first round draft pick because I do not think he has elite arm talent. He does have other favorable traits, so he is clearly worthy of being drafted, but some people are talking about using 4 first round draft picks to trade up to #1 overall to get him. That is just crazy talk, especially when the player does have some athletic limitations that are relevant to the position he plays.

              14 times this century a team has drafted a QB #1 overall and, so far, 14 times the QB that was drafted #1 overall in this century has not lived up to his draft position. QBs are routinely ridiculously overhyped and routinely ridiculously overdrafted.

              I would say that my position on this point is pretty strong and not something merely contrived for the purpose of debate.

              Comment

              • Boltjolt
                Dont let the PBs fool ya
                • Jun 2013
                • 26263
                • Henderson, NV
                • Send PM

                Originally posted by chaincrusher View Post

                You are mistaken.

                My view of high first round draft picks is really fairly simple and I try to apply it consistently. The player needs to have both superor athletic traits and superior film. Without the superior athletic traits, there is some risk that the player may be a really great college level player, but that the player's lack of athleticism may catch up to him at the NFL level. Without superior film, there is at least some question regarding whether or not the player will ever capitalize on his superior athletic ability. The added risk associated with players lacking either some degree of relevant athletic ability or superior film is enough for me to drop the player down some in terms of where I think the player should be drafted.

                I would be the first to admit that there are plenty of cases where a lack of athletic ability ends up not being a significant impediment to a player's career. But I do not prefer a draft strategy that simply assumes that the player will be able to overcome his athletic limitations.

                So, for example, there was a poster that compared Burrow to Joe Montana. And I would say that that is possible, but could we please recognize that Joe Montana was drafted in the third round because he had perceived limitations?

                At the end of the day, I would not take Burrow with a high first round draft pick because I do not think he has elite arm talent. He does have other favorable traits, so he is clearly worthy of being drafted, but some people are talking about using 4 first round draft picks to trade up to #1 overall to get him. That is just crazy talk, especially when the player does have some athletic limitations that are relevant to the position he plays.

                14 times this century a team has drafted a QB #1 overall and, so far, 14 times the QB that was drafted #1 overall in this century has not lived up to his draft position. QBs are routinely ridiculously overhyped and routinely ridiculously overdrafted.

                I would say that my position on this point is pretty strong and not something merely contrived for the purpose of debate.
                So what your saying is. .....Montana should have been a first round pick but GMs were stupidly worried about his arm strength .....which was the concern they had.

                Things have changed and plenty of QBs don't have a cannon arm and the BEST one's don't.

                More college offensive plays are being used and you don't hear about not being under center as a concern as much anymore. Herbert never is under center and you don't hear a word about it now.

                Your concerns for Burrow to me are invalid.

                Also pure football players many times are better than the athletic ones so again, the draft is a crap shoot as always.
                Last edited by Boltjolt; 01-18-2020, 10:37 AM.

                Comment

                • jamrock
                  lawyers, guns and money
                  • Sep 2017
                  • 13117
                  • Send PM

                  Originally posted by chaincrusher View Post

                  I agree with you that Burrow is an accurate passer. I think he is more quick than fast, which is still useful. I think he is an average athlete for a QB. I do not get your comments on his arm strength at all. Herbert has a great arm (not legendary, but pretty great)--above average for an NFL QB. Josh Allen is an example of elite NFL arm strength in my view. There is a night and day difference between Herbert's arm and Burrow's arm.

                  I also agree that arm strength is not the most important factor, but it is a factor. It is enough of a concern for me not to consider Burrow worthy of a high first round pick.

                  I also agree that there have been a number of QBs that did very well even though they did not have a great arm. But those QBs were not typically drafted first overall or even, in many cases, in the first round.

                  I can't get on board with selecting a player with a high first round draft pick that does not possess both superior athletic traits and superior film.

                  Even with Bosa, who has been a very good player for us, I did not like him at #3 overall because I did not like his lack of athleticism. And even to this day, when Bosa just misses making plays, I find myself thinking that for all of his elite technique and great heart that he pours into playing, if he had just a bit more natural athletic ability, he would be that much better.

                  If I am considering a move up to #1 overall, it needs to be for a player like Elway, Peyton Manning, Andrew Luck or like Trevor Lawrence after the next college season. And even then, it is a huge risk.
                  Bosa was a great pick for us at #3.

                  Burrow won’t fall to us but is a legit #1. If the argument you’re making is that Montana was a 3rd round pick because of “perceived limitations” so Burrow would be overvalued at #1, Montana’s career beats it like a drum. In a do over draft he would be #1 by a mile. They all got it wrong.

                  Comment

                  • powderblueboy
                    Registered Charger Fan
                    • Jul 2017
                    • 8803
                    • Send PM

                    Originally posted by dmac_bolt View Post

                    not only would i take Burrow at #6, not only would I take him at #1, .. I would trade both of my #1s this year and next if it were that simple and cheap to get him. He's far superior to any of the QBs taken in the top10 the last 3 or 4 years, it doesn't look close to me. Great arm, great touch, great accuracy, athletic and can run some, i think you're 180 off the mark on this one. but what do i know.
                    This is just nuts. Mahomes was taken at #10 3 years ago (perhaps you attempted to exclude him). Many consider Mahomes the best qb in the NFL.

                    I just rewatched Burrow against Alabama: God almighty how much time and how open the receivers generally were! He made one or two nice throws under pressure, but in general it was like shooting fish in a barrel. That's Burrow's season in a nut shell. Its easy to be accurate when your receiver has a few steps and you can step into the pocket with no one around you. Its also easy to get in a rhythm.

                    It will be a rude awakening when he starts for Cincy. All types of trash to contend with. He'll improve, but there will be lots of growing pains.

                    I'm glad the Chargers will miss out on him.
                    Last edited by powderblueboy; 01-18-2020, 11:41 AM.

                    Comment

                    • powderblueboy
                      Registered Charger Fan
                      • Jul 2017
                      • 8803
                      • Send PM

                      Originally posted by Boltjolt View Post

                      True. We can probably get Dalton for a subscription to Netflix....maybe add in a subscription to Amazon Prime.
                      However....PASS!
                      And yet, he might be better than what they'll be going with next year.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Boltjolt View Post

                        So what your saying is. .....Montana should have been a first round pick but GMs were stupidly worried about his arm strength .....which was the concern they had.

                        Things have changed and plenty of QBs don't have a cannon arm and the BEST one's don't.

                        More college offensive plays are being used and you don't hear about not being under center as a concern as much anymore. Herbert never is under center and you don't hear a word about it now.

                        Your concerns for Burrow to me are invalid.

                        Also pure football players many times are better than the athletic ones so again, the draft is a crap shoot as always.
                        No, you have completely misconstrued what I am saying.

                        I am saying that the decision to draft Montana in the third round was sound. There were reasons why he fell that far just as there are reasons why Burrow should fall. People want to compare Burrow to Montana, but they do not want to complete the comparison as it relates to the draft.

                        I agree that drafting has changed in recent years to overvalue QBs. It is bad draft strategy and I favor letting the use of that strategy be someone else's problem. I would not draft either Burrow or Herbert at #6 overall. I do not think either is worth being picked that early.

                        I agree that the draft is a crap shoot, which is precisely why you want to minimize the risk by choosing "pure football players" (your term) as shown by their tape who are also great athletes when you have an early first round pick at your disposal. To me, that is where the odds that a pick will work out are maximized. Even then, there is always some degree of risk.

                        Comment

                        • Boltjolt
                          Dont let the PBs fool ya
                          • Jun 2013
                          • 26263
                          • Henderson, NV
                          • Send PM

                          Originally posted by chaincrusher View Post

                          No, you have completely misconstrued what I am saying.

                          I am saying that the decision to draft Montana in the third round was sound. There were reasons why he fell that far just as there are reasons why Burrow should fall. People want to compare Burrow to Montana, but they do not want to complete the comparison as it relates to the draft.

                          I agree that drafting has changed in recent years to overvalue QBs. It is bad draft strategy and I favor letting the use of that strategy be someone else's problem. I would not draft either Burrow or Herbert at #6 overall. I do not think either is worth being picked that early.

                          I agree that the draft is a crap shoot, which is precisely why you want to minimize the risk by choosing "pure football players" (your term) as shown by their tape who are also great athletes when you have an early first round pick at your disposal. To me, that is where the odds that a pick will work out are maximized. Even then, there is always some degree of risk.
                          I understood, but Montana should have been a first round pick No? He would today.

                          So the concerns were invalid and Burrows arm is also just fine like that same concern for Montana's arm.
                          It's called them being wrong,...as they have been with many others.
                          Sorry, but just don't agree at all with your assessment.

                          Comment

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