POLL: Is It Time To Bench Rivers?

[Caslon]

Try and realize that Rivers, up until this season, enjoyed relatively good protection. In fact, think further back and he enjoyed really good protection (remember when he would take two steps up into the pocket and pick other teams apart?). His quick release helped him last year with a less than stellar O-line, but this year it couldn't. This undoubtedly has affected him deeply I believe. You can't expect it not to. I was harsh on Rivers in some recent posts about his decision making abilities which are justified. However, you can't expect a possible future of HOF'er to suddenly become Mr. Mentally Razor sharp amid circumstances he's unaccustomed to for possibly the first time in his career. If you can think of a possibly available QB who wouldn't be equally affected by the dismal O-line this season, then name him. Some want change for change sakes. But then, you'll come after that guy too if he doesn't suit you. End of Op Ed.

[Guest]

In Eli two title runs he got it done.
They went 4-0 and 4-0.
In those 8 games Eli had a single Interception.
They had 3pt wins and OT wins during those runs.
If Eli turned the ball over they would have zero Superbowl wins. They would have never got there if he was throwing a couple more interceptions.

If by "got it done" you mean that Eli happened to have a contract that landed him on a Super Bowl winning team that won in spite of him, then you are correct, but if your assertion is that Eli did something special to lead his team to two Super Bowl wins, then you are just wrong. You are also wrong about Eli just having a single interception in the 8 games. He had two.

Your post also fails to discuss that Eli went one and done in his four other playoff appearances, failed to complete even 60% of his passes in any of those losses and had 7 INTs in those games versus only 3 TD passes.

As for Eli's supposedly great Super Bowl runs, in 2007, Eli led the league in INTs for the first of the three times that he has accomplished that. In the 2007 Super Bowl run, his defense never gave up more than 20 points against any opponent. Eli threw for a whopping 213.5 yards per game. He averaged a whopping 1.5 passing TDs during the run.

And since you mentioned the OT wins, boy, Eli sure had a role in the one in 2007. He sat on the bench while Green Bay threw the ball to the Giants on the second play of OT following the kickoff, putting the Giants already in FG range. He then went on the field and executed two running plays for 5 yards, threw an incomplete pass on third down and watched his FG kicker kick the game winning FG. But please, let's go ahead and give Eli the credit for that. And while we are at it, let's give him credit for Tyree's fluke helmet catch following Eli throwing up garbage (that is, of course, the garbage other than the multiple INT balls the Patriots dropped).

In the 2011 run, Eli's stats were better, but he did play against the #16, #20, #31 and #32 ranked pass defenses. Again, his defense never gave up more than 20 points to any opponent (and managed to generate 4 turnovers against Green Bay). In fact, his defense would have led the team to a shutout against Atlanta, but Eli gave the Falcons the 2 points they got that day when he intentionally grounded the ball in the end zone. And again, since you mentioned the OT games, here is what "clutch Eli" did against the 49ers in the second half and OT of their 2011 season playoff game: punt, punt, punt, punt, punt+muffed return+Giants recovery+24 yard TD drive, punt, punt, punt, punt, and, let's not forget, punt+fumbled punt return+Giants recovery+ 3 running plays/1 kneel down+game winning FG.

Frankly, I think it is a remarkable fluke that in Eli's career, he has actually been gifted not one, but two playoff OT wins without even having to pass for a single first down in OT for either win. To say that Eli was ridiculously lucky in both Super Bowl runs does not do how fortunate he was justice.

Lastly, I have said it before and will say it again--being on a Super Bowl winning team means exactly zero in terms of how good a QB actually is. It is amazing how many times that concept gets referenced and how people simply do not comprehend the difference between a team accomplishment and an individual accomplishment. Dan Marino really was better than Trent Dilfer. Dan Fouts really was better than Jim Plunkett. And Philip Rivers was, is and always will be vastly superior to Eli Manning.

[Guest]

That is right. Green Bay did not trade up.

They also went 10-6 which is why they drafted 24th.

Farve was a 3 time league MVP and Superbowl Champion and 35 years old at that time.
Yet they still spent a 1st rd pick on a QB and then he sat for 3 years until Favre was 38.

At 38 years old Favre went 13-3 his final season in Green Bay and lost the NFC title game in overtime 20-23. Green Bay traded him to Jets that off season.

Favre proved he was still great. Went to NFC title game with Vikings at age 40

Rodgers proved he was great too winning a Superbowl and league MVP twice.

Rivers is 38 doesn't have the creditials of either of the 2 guys above. And I have been posting on fan boards for a few seasons that its time to spend a 1st on a QB and sit him behind Rivers for a couple seasons.
I posted and argued on fans boards to draft Watson and sit him behind Rivers. They picked Mike Willimas. After it happened, I posted they pickesbthe wrong Clemson player. I mentioned Rivers age and contract expiration. As well as the bottom line....for 7 straight years Rivers couldnt find a way to get to 10 wins in a regular season. His combined record over that time 51-61. (Rivers is not blameless and beyond reproach in that win loss record)

Chargers spent a 5th last year. Are they actually seriously trying to be ready for the future?

QB driven league.
Go get Burrow. Its too late to wait.
They could have just got Watson with no trade necessary.

The MVP is decided by a vote. It is not objective. Objectively speaking, there is a good case that Rivers should have been the MVP in 2008. His stats were virtually better across the board than Peyton Manning's. Rivers will retire with a better career QB rating than Favre. Rodgers is arguably the best QB ever to play. Comparing a QB to Rodgers to make some point about the other QB not being as good is meaningless--like comparing a basketball player to Michael Jordan and reaching the "remarkable" conclusion that the basketball player is not as good as Jordan. Being on a Super Bowl winning team means exactly zero in terms of how good/bad a QB is. Super Bowls are won by teams, not individuals.

Yes, Rivers is above reproach for the team's record from 2010-2017. Teams win and lose games, not QBs. Rivers was statistically solid to very good in every one of those seasons and was so despite being saddled with less than great talent during many of those years.

In 2010, Rivers led the league in passing yardage, yards per attempt and yards per game. He finished 2nd in QB rating. In 2013, Rivers led the NFL in completion percentage and was technically 4th in QB rating, though two of the 3 ahead of him barely had enough attempts to qualify. In 2015, Rivers led the NFL in completions.

Without Rivers, the team probably would have been a bottom 5 team in all of those seasons. They were in one of the seasons even with Rivers.

Your previously stated plan to trade up and get a QB and burn years of draft capital fails because it leaves the real problem, the OL, not Rivers, unresolved for years to come. Fixing the OL first and then drafting the franchise QB when there is a better QB out there is a better approach that fits better with Rivers' career path. A new QB is not going to start in 2020 for the Chargers, so any QB drafted then is sitting at least one and very possibly two seasons. In today's NFL, sitting a top QB prospect for two seasons is too long. Drafting a QB just does not make sense unless Rivers goes against what he has previously stated about wanting to play in the new stadium and suddenly retires.

[Critty]

If by "got it done" you mean that Eli happened to have a contract that landed him on a Super Bowl winning team that won in spite of him, then you are correct, but if your assertion is that Eli did something special to lead his team to two Super Bowl wins, then you are just wrong. You are also wrong about Eli just having a single interception in the 8 games. He had two.

Your post also fails to discuss that Eli went one and done in his four other playoff appearances, failed to complete even 60% of his passes in any of those losses and had 7 INTs in those games versus only 3 TD passes.

As for Eli's supposedly great Super Bowl runs, in 2007, Eli led the league in INTs for the first of the three times that he has accomplished that. In the 2007 Super Bowl run, his defense never gave up more than 20 points against any opponent. Eli threw for a whopping 213.5 yards per game. He averaged a whopping 1.5 passing TDs during the run.

And since you mentioned the OT wins, boy, Eli sure had a role in the one in 2007. He sat on the bench while Green Bay threw the ball to the Giants on the second play of OT following the kickoff, putting the Giants already in FG range. He then went on the field and executed two running plays for 5 yards, threw an incomplete pass on third down and watched his FG kicker kick the game winning FG. But please, let's go ahead and give Eli the credit for that. And while we are at it, let's give him credit for Tyree's fluke helmet catch following Eli throwing up garbage (that is, of course, the garbage other than the multiple INT balls the Patriots dropped).

In the 2011 run, Eli's stats were better, but he did play against the #16, #20, #31 and #32 ranked pass defenses. Again, his defense never gave up more than 20 points to any opponent (and managed to generate 4 turnovers against Green Bay). In fact, his defense would have led the team to a shutout against Atlanta, but Eli gave the Falcons the 2 points they got that day when he intentionally grounded the ball in the end zone. And again, since you mentioned the OT games, here is what "clutch Eli" did against the 49ers in the second half and OT of their 2011 season playoff game: punt, punt, punt, punt, punt+muffed return+Giants recovery+24 yard TD drive, punt, punt, punt, punt, and, let's not forget, punt+fumbled punt return+Giants recovery+ 3 running plays/1 kneel down+game winning FG.

Frankly, I think it is a remarkable fluke that in Eli's career, he has actually been gifted not one, but two playoff OT wins without even having to pass for a single first down in OT for either win. To say that Eli was ridiculously lucky in both Super Bowl runs does not do how fortunate he was justice.

Lastly, I have said it before and will say it again--being on a Super Bowl winning team means exactly zero in terms of how good a QB actually is. It is amazing how many times that concept gets referenced and how people simply do not comprehend the difference between a team accomplishment and an individual accomplishment. Dan Marino really was better than Trent Dilfer. Dan Fouts really was better than Jim Plunkett. And Philip Rivers was, is and always will be vastly superior to Eli Manning.

Wow.
Of course Marino is better than Dilfer.
And being on a Superbowl team also means exactly zero for how good any single position or player is on that team. So good attempt to spin it. Come on man, you should be able to comprehend that arguement applies to all players. So, it really has no validity to it.

As for Eli.
Your just flat out wrong.
He threw 1 interception in 8 games during his two superbowl runs. Its a team game and they help him, like every QB, its always a team.

As for that 2011 run. Analytics ranked the Giant o line the worst in all of football.

Maybe there are less punts if he actually has a decent o line.

Do not take credit away from him for finding a way with his teammates to win games. He got it done.
Sometimes in close games, field position and punting and relying on your teammates gets it done. Not every win can be pretty. Forcing the rock into coverage for interceptions would lose games in difficult situational football where its hard to move the rock. Dilfer got it done by not making crucial miatakes. He even admits he knew to play within himself and not hurt the team. He gets credit for doing his job.

So does Rivers in 2011, if on Giants and playing behind the worst o line in football find a way to win. Maybe, he does. I think he would have to not turnover to get it done for that team. Who knows maybe he tosses more TDs than Eli. But then again maybe he tosses more picks and loses. We just dont know.

Had Eli ever had a 14-2 team with an LT and a Gates?
We dont know how Eli plays with those teammates.
Nor do we know how Rivers does playing with Giants.

Team can win Superbowls without great QBs, but not very often. And great QBs can not make Superbowl because the team wasn't good enough.
But when the team is good enough. And Rivers has been on Charger teams they had a lot of talent but failed. Unlucky yes. Did not get it done at times. Yes.

Rivers is not beyond reproach for no Superbowl appearances on his career.

[Critty]

The MVP is decided by a vote. It is not objective. Objectively speaking, there is a good case that Rivers should have been the MVP in 2008. His stats were virtually better across the board than Peyton Manning's. Rivers will retire with a better career QB rating than Favre. Rodgers is arguably the best QB ever to play. Comparing a QB to Rodgers to make some point about the other QB not being as good is meaningless--like comparing a basketball player to Michael Jordan and reaching the "remarkable" conclusion that the basketball player is not as good as Jordan. Being on a Super Bowl winning team means exactly zero in terms of how good/bad a QB is. Super Bowls are won by teams, not individuals.

Yes, Rivers is above reproach for the team's record from 2010-2017. Teams win and lose games, not QBs. Rivers was statistically solid to very good in every one of those seasons and was so despite being saddled with less than great talent during many of those years.

In 2010, Rivers led the league in passing yardage, yards per attempt and yards per game. He finished 2nd in QB rating. In 2013, Rivers led the NFL in completion percentage and was technically 4th in QB rating, though two of the 3 ahead of him barely had enough attempts to qualify. In 2015, Rivers led the NFL in completions.

Without Rivers, the team probably would have been a bottom 5 team in all of those seasons. They were in one of the seasons even with Rivers.

Your previously stated plan to trade up and get a QB and burn years of draft capital fails because it leaves the real problem, the OL, not Rivers, unresolved for years to come. Fixing the OL first and then drafting the franchise QB when there is a better QB out there is a better approach that fits better with Rivers' career path. A new QB is not going to start in 2020 for the Chargers, so any QB drafted then is sitting at least one and very possibly two seasons. In today's NFL, sitting a top QB prospect for two seasons is too long. Drafting a QB just does not make sense unless Rivers goes against what he has previously stated about wanting to play in the new stadium and suddenly retires.

There you have it.
Rivers was absolutely perfect.

I think we're done here.
Nothing more needs to be argued.

[pacstud]

Critty I don't dislike Burrow, and I think at worst he's average (Tannehill).

I do NOT see how you see him as a guaranteed superstar.

[pacstud]

There you have it.
Rivers was absolutely perfect.

I think we're done here.
Nothing more needs to be argued.

I'm not bashing Rivers but chain is making a false argument. Rivers has always had two things consistent about him:

1. He is an elite thrower of the ball and regularly makes Top 10 throws.
2. He has "big" game-changing throws/decisions that hurt the team and cost the team games.

It's both. That's the paradox of Rivers. His best years did not involve anything special with #1, it's when he reduced or eliminated #2.

Saying he's great doesn't eliminate the mistakes; Saying he makes mistakes doesn't eliminate his greatness.

It's why he's a borderline HOFer instead of 1st ballot imo.

Doesn't matter, the Rivers era is all but over here.

[jamrock]

Wow.
Of course Marino is better than Dilfer.
And being on a Superbowl team also means exactly zero for how good any single position or player is on that team. So good attempt to spin it. Come on man, you should be able to comprehend that arguement applies to all players. So, it really has no validity to it.

As for Eli.
Your just flat out wrong.
He threw 1 interception in 8 games during his two superbowl runs. Its a team game and they help him, like every QB, its always a team.

As for that 2011 run. Analytics ranked the Giant o line the worst in all of football.

Maybe there are less punts if he actually has a decent o line.

Do not take credit away from him for finding a way with his teammates to win games. He got it done.
Sometimes in close games, field position and punting and relying on your teammates gets it done. Not every win can be pretty. Forcing the rock into coverage for interceptions would lose games in difficult situational football where its hard to move the rock. Dilfer got it done by not making crucial miatakes. He even admits he knew to play within himself and not hurt the team. He gets credit for doing his job.

So does Rivers in 2011, if on Giants and playing behind the worst o line in football find a way to win. Maybe, he does. I think he would have to not turnover to get it done for that team. Who knows maybe he tosses more TDs than Eli. But then again maybe he tosses more picks and loses. We just dont know.

Had Eli ever had a 14-2 team with an LT and a Gates?
We dont know how Eli plays with those teammates.
Nor do we know how Rivers does playing with Giants.

Team can win Superbowls without great QBs, but not very often. And great QBs can not make Superbowl because the team wasn't good enough.
But when the team is good enough. And Rivers has been on Charger teams they had a lot of talent but failed. Unlucky yes. Did not get it done at times. Yes.

Rivers is not beyond reproach for no Superbowl appearances on his career.

It’s fine if you think Rivers is a better QB than Eli but it’s ridiculous to say Eli did nothing special in the Giants 2 Super Bowls. He made a couple of game decisions g plays that will repeat on Super Bowl highlights for years to come. And those plays beat the Patriots twice.

give him his due

[jamrock]

I'm not bashing Rivers but chain is making a false argument. Rivers has always had two things consistent about him:

1. He is an elite thrower of the ball and regularly makes Top 10 throws.
2. He has "big" game-changing throws/decisions that hurt the team and cost the team games.

It's both. That's the paradox of Rivers. His best years did not involve anything special with #1, it's when he reduced or eliminated #2.

Saying he's great doesn't eliminate the mistakes; Saying he makes mistakes doesn't eliminate his greatness.

It's why he's a borderline HOFer instead of 1st ballot imo.

Doesn't matter, the Rivers era is all but over here.

Fair. It’s all on display in almost every game. In KC he made a great throw downfield to MW at the end and followed it with a bad decision/bad throw that ended the game and season. Rivers career in a 2 nearly consecutive plays

[bartman83642]

Wow.
Of course Marino is better than Dilfer.
And being on a Superbowl team also means exactly zero for how good any single position or player is on that team. So good attempt to spin it. Come on man, you should be able to comprehend that arguement applies to all players. So, it really has no validity to it.

As for Eli.
Your just flat out wrong.
He threw 1 interception in 8 games during his two superbowl runs. Its a team game and they help him, like every QB, its always a team.

As for that 2011 run. Analytics ranked the Giant o line the worst in all of football.

Maybe there are less punts if he actually has a decent o line.

Do not take credit away from him for finding a way with his teammates to win games. He got it done.
Sometimes in close games, field position and punting and relying on your teammates gets it done. Not every win can be pretty. Forcing the rock into coverage for interceptions would lose games in difficult situational football where its hard to move the rock. Dilfer got it done by not making crucial miatakes. He even admits he knew to play within himself and not hurt the team. He gets credit for doing his job.

So does Rivers in 2011, if on Giants and playing behind the worst o line in football find a way to win. Maybe, he does. I think he would have to not turnover to get it done for that team. Who knows maybe he tosses more TDs than Eli. But then again maybe he tosses more picks and loses. We just dont know.

Had Eli ever had a 14-2 team with an LT and a Gates?
We dont know how Eli plays with those teammates.
Nor do we know how Rivers does playing with Giants.

Team can win Superbowls without great QBs, but not very often. And great QBs can not make Superbowl because the team wasn't good enough.
But when the team is good enough. And Rivers has been on Charger teams they had a lot of talent but failed. Unlucky yes. Did not get it done at times. Yes.

Rivers is not beyond reproach for no Superbowl appearances on his career.

Actually he is correct and you are wrong. Eli threw one INT against NE in the first SB he was in. His 2nd INT during those 8 games was against GB during the 2nd run. Stats are out there for you to see on various sites including NFL.com and profootballreference.com.

[Topcat]

I'm not bashing Rivers but chain is making a false argument. Rivers has always had two things consistent about him:

1. He is an elite thrower of the ball and regularly makes Top 10 throws.
2. He has "big" game-changing throws/decisions that hurt the team and cost the team games.

It's both. That's the paradox of Rivers. His best years did not involve anything special with #1, it's when he reduced or eliminated #2.

Saying he's great doesn't eliminate the mistakes; Saying he makes mistakes doesn't eliminate his greatness.

It's why he's a borderline HOFer instead of 1st ballot imo.

Doesn't matter, the Rivers era is all but over here.

That's the weird thing about Rivers--he's got this Dr. Jeckyll and Mr. Hyde personality--when he's on, he's really, really good. When he's off, he's really, really bad. More often than not, I've noticed that the Bad Rivers comes out during tight games, especially in the 4th quarter. And this is borne out by the situational stats, when his picks go way up. And many of those picks were on plays when the O-line was giving him decent pass pro. I really wish Rivers would play under more control, but for some reason, he just doesn't...

[Critty]

I'm not bashing Rivers but chain is making a false argument. Rivers has always had two things consistent about him:

1. He is an elite thrower of the ball and regularly makes Top 10 throws.
2. He has "big" game-changing throws/decisions that hurt the team and cost the team games.

It's both. That's the paradox of Rivers. His best years did not involve anything special with #1, it's when he reduced or eliminated #2.

Saying he's great doesn't eliminate the mistakes; Saying he makes mistakes doesn't eliminate his greatness.

It's why he's a borderline HOFer instead of 1st ballot imo.

Doesn't matter, the Rivers era is all but over here.

Yes. Exactly.
100% Agree with this.

Always thought Rivers is a baller, not a game manager. He plays with extreme confidence in himself and his teammates to excute they play vs anyone. Sometimes to a fault in situational football.