Chargers Signing Nick Vigil

[Steve]

Simmons would be elite in the 5 group as a thumper safety/lb Hybrid. He’s a guy that never needs to come off the field. My only question about him was is he strong enough to stand up in a base 4-3-4 at LB if an offense runs a two TE / bigs power package straight at them - this forum convinced me he can so I’m on board all the way for him.

QB1 is still more important than any two other, maybe any 4 other players. By far the most important position on the field, its not even close and that is why top QBs get 30M now. the salary reflect the value. If they can get a franchise QB at 6, gotta do it. Even if he’s “10” on your board, the positional value is through the roof.

Size and power are mostly overrated as abilities for NFL players. Most NFL LB cannot stand toe to toe with an OL, blocking TE, and FB. They simply don't need to. There is enough room that they get the OL/TE/FB moving, then attack through the edge, or slip the block. Derwin James does a great job of running plays down from behind. There are many ways of playing good run D, and outmuscling them toe to toe is not the only way to do it. If you weren't watching carefully, GB was outmuscling the 49ers in the playoff loss inside, but they were getting their LB and DL tied up in the middle, and not filling the 49ers gaps as ran the outside zone towards the perimeter.

Simmons is NEVER going to be a great point of attack player, and we shouldn't ask him to become one (if we draft him). He is a speed guy who runs like a deer. But it helps to remember, if you run at Simmons to exploit him, that means James is going to be running the play down from behind, and that is a losing proposition for the offense. Plus, with NFL teams calling/executing a lot more pass than run plays, and the prevelance of running games featuring outside zone vs inside zone, players that can run to the boundary are a MUST.

[blueman]

We took away White’s speed, I worry we’d do the same with Simmons.

[Steve]

Who do you see as our starters in base D next year. And if we play a 4-2-5, why would we need to pick any LBs in the draft. And that means taking an OT over Simmons.

Defense
Big DE - Bosa/Rochelle
DT (3 tech) - Jones/Tillery/PJ Johnson or Sylvester Williams
NT- Joseph/Broughton
LEO - Ingram/Nwosu
OTTO - Nwosu/White/Egbule
Mike - Perryman/Vigil
Will - Tranquill/White/Jefferson

LCB - Harris/M. Davis
SS - James/Teamer
FS - Jenkins/Adderley
RCB - Hayward/Facyson

Dime S - King/Jenkins/Teamer
Nickel CB - Harris/next CB up


Two things to keep in mind about our LB.
1). Last year, towards the end of the year, we tended to mix in White and Nwosu as the OTTO. Nwosu is the control the TE guy (don't get reach blocked), and White is the run and hit guy. It depends on what the offense is doing, who plays the most. So I listed White as the backup, but it depends on the TE, the offensive scheme and down and distance. either way, OTTO or SAM LB is not a play making position.
2). The ILB spots (Will and Mike) are used faily interchangeably in our D. We flopped guys around week to week I think the idea is to just get the 2 best LB on the field.

Drafting Simmons is not necessarily about filling a NEED. LB is sorta a need, but with so many young athletically gifted players, they will probably let things play out a bit. The exception, in my mind is Simmons. He is not about filling need. He is a rare athlete, who fits what a LB needs to be in modern football. He is a tremendous athlete and is starting to really develop in the mental side of the game. He is one of the more productive college LB in the country and that is tough on a D that is as loaded as Clemson. If you watch Clemson, on the plays he is not making, he is often just a half step or step behind, meaning on our D he is likely making some of those other plays.

The biggest knock against Simmons is that he is probably not going to get past NY Giants at #4.

[Steve]

We took away White’s speed, I worry we’d do the same with Simmons.

I am not sure we took it away as much as he is just not that instinctive at LB. But, it is still a good point to make. If it is true that we did take away White's speed, that is exactly the kind of thing I would be afraid of doing to Simmons.

You want a guy like Simmons, because he is skilled at slipping blocks and exploding past/attacking the line before blockers can get him. He can run down anyone in college football down from behind. You might fool him once, but you won't fool him twice.

So, why would we want to turn him into a big, physical thumper? It's not why we want him at #6. We want him to continue to do what he did in college. And in today's NFL, and Simmons vast array of skills, he would give us so many ways to take things away from on offense. Simmons needs to refine his technique some, but he is well on his way to being the type of player that we need, being a coverage LB who dominates on 2md and 3rd downs (and in the goalline).

If we want a big thumper to play the run, better to give up on a traditional 3 tech DT, go for all NT types at DT, and keep Perryman and Nwosu at MLB and OLB. They aren't the fast athletic guys, but they can be fairly stout. Just focus them on being the thumpers.

[blueman]

Yeah, White’s speed was what made him so effective his (abridged) rookie season. Last year, he looked like Joe Average LB. Cannot believe that’s what we wanted from him when we drafted him. Just something else WTF from 2019.

[like54ninjas]

We took away White’s speed, I worry we’d do the same with Simmons.

His knee injury seems to have taken some speed, explosiveness, agility, and long term team fit, imv.

[Formula 21]

White took his own speed away by adding 30 pounds, even if its all muscle.

[like54ninjas]

White took his own speed away by adding 30 pounds, even if its all muscle.

Ok

[alex8080]

You might have a point except that ALL NFL teams have played way more nickel D than base since the early 1980's. This is not a new trend (40 years old). For all (practical) intents and purposes, this is the way it has been forever. We are only the exception only in the sense that we play more dime than nickel (prior to Phillips getting hurt).

There are only a few LB in the NFL who can cover well enough to stay with pass catching TE, 3rd down RB and/or WR. NFL football is all about situational football and getting matchups, and LB are the mismatches in a BAD way. Almost every offense in the NFL, even the 49ers and KC, if they have a tactical/mismatch problem that comes up in a game, the answer that they come up with is in the passing game, not the running game. NFL offenses play around 60-70% of their snaps in their 11 personnel (1RB, 1TE, 3WR).

Few teams have 2 good run blocking TE. There is a big shortage of TE who can block, and most of the ones that can, are terrible pass catchers. Only a handful of NFL teams have a FB at all, and those that do, most are athletically limited. The bottom line is most NFL teams might have bigger players on the field when the offense was in base personnel, but they aren't necessarily going to knock a nickel or dime defense around. Our Dime package is perceived to be a weakness vs the run, but the dime players were much better vs the run, than the base players. The extra FB and TE simply cannot block DB in space. We stood toe to toe with Baltimore, and they had the best heavy personnel in football the last 2 years, by a wide margin. The NE game kept getting quoted as the problem with the dime and quarters personnel group, but it was the LB and DT who were getting knocked around, missing tackles and unable to finish plays.

The other thing to consider is that the modern NFL and college offenses are doing more and more zone read and RPO's. Those are option football. The way college teams stop and beat option football is to get as fast as possible. GB didn't get killed vs SF zone offense because they got outmuscled in the playoffs. They got killed because they couldn't match the 49ers speed.

agree. that was the way i tried to point. that being said, knowing you have 2 cb's over 30, effectiveness of cb's at that age or more, i would think there is more emphasis on DB. simmons would probably be gone, i think okudah would be logical choice. (outside of qb)

[blueman]

All of the above. Post-injury, not the same guy. Makes Simmons very attractive.

Although...I have wondered if the weight gain was about his rehab and getting back to game shape any way he could. Build proximity muscles to protect the healing tissues. And that maybe this off-season he’s getting back into his more ideal game shape/weight? Stay tuned.

[Steve]

I had gone back and watched White play in his rookie year, and part of what made him so effective was that he was very aggressive and instinctive. He seemed to be breaking on the ball as fast or faster than the offensive player. Add in the speed and quickness, he flashed a huge potential.

Last year, he was either reacting poorly or slow off his reaction a lot. Vs the Lions, there were a couple of plays he either had no clue where the ball was or he flat out reacted in the wrong direction. That was why I am not sure it was speed thing vs poor reaction thing. He just didn't seem to be around the ball very much

Either way, it will be interesting to see how he plays this season.

[blueman]

Exactly! He was also playing new positions to him in ‘19, not sure why, maybe the weight gain? Anyhoo, I’m gonna put him in the still developing pile, see what happens.