Justin Herbert - Bolts Franchise QB Official Discussion

Collapse
X
Collapse
First Prev Next Last
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts
  • Parcells
    Registered Charger Fan
    • Jun 2013
    • 2235
    • Send PM

    Originally posted by ChargingBolts View Post
    I know this may be an unpopular take but I cannot get into the Bolts QB situation because the story of Rivers isn't over. I cannot move on because he is still playing, and I can't understand how fans who once loved him can just move on already when the body isn't cold yet.

    I for one am pretty sure Rivers is going to play at an MVP level with the Colts this year and it pains me that T.T. killed free agency and the draft when Phil's gone, where were these chess moves when P.R. was here?!

    This will stir some feathers here but I feel Rivers will play at least 3 more years and that my gut is telling me that 2022 Rivers will be playing better than 2022 Herbert which kills me that we didn't tag him or work out a team friendly deal.

    I know Herbert may be a bust, or mediocre like a Ryan Fitzpatrick or even great like Phil but to get to the level we already had, why fix something that isn't broken? (the line was broke, not Phil) but perhaps Phil and Lynn's relationship and the 16 road games is what was broke and maybe Phil didn't want to be back.

    I have grown to love Phil more a little more than the Chargers, it's unhealthy to have to root for both a player on a different team and a team without my QB.

    This is painful.
    Like with the Herbert selection, I was pissed when we took Rivers in 2004. But I grew to love the guy. I brought my second son home from the hospital in a Rivers jersey (first son came home in an LT jersey). While it pained me, I think it was time for him to move on. He is a guy who made his living by throwing into tight windows. Now that he’s lost just a little bit off of his game, he’s not the same QB. I’d love to have him around to help Herbert develop, but I don’t think he’s gonna be a competitive QB. That last int against KC to lose the game summed up how he’s just not the same guy he used to be from a talent level. It hurts to say it, but it’s the truth. He’s 38 years old. I will be rooting for him and the Colts this year (aside from if they play the Chargers in the playoffs). But I don’t regret the decision to move on from PR.

    I hope they properly develop Herbert. I’m talking myself into the guy and will support him. It would have been great to have Herbert learn from PR. But again, I support the decision to move of from Rivers.
    Last edited by Parcells; 04-27-2020, 11:11 PM.

    Comment

    • GoDucks2020
      Registered Charger Fan
      • Apr 2020
      • 11
      • Send PM

      Originally posted by Steve View Post
      The problem with the pistol is that the RB is coming down the pipe full speed which makes it hard to cut back so blocking has to be good. - any RB not able to cut at full speed is not going to make it long as an NFL RB.

      The RB is basically going down a pre-defined track. You won't get many negative running plays from the pistol but explosion plays are also limited since it handicaps the RBs ability to improvise. - when the RB hits the step past the QB, he has to be prepared to make a cut and can either bend it backside or stay frontside. Again, I don't have any idea what you are watching, but it is EXACTLY the same backfield action as "I" formation/Ace backfield action that NFL teams have been using forever. College RB generally lack the speed, quickness and vision to be successful at it, but that is the difference between the NFL and FBS college.

      It can be run to either side without tipping your hand pre-snap like you said. The other aspect I don't like about the pistol is that play action is kinda messy. - NFL defenders don't read the ball, they read the blocking. Front 7 defenders read blockers and the secondary reads the receivers release. That is why NFL QB don't fake worth a crap, they don't need to. Defenders are not looking for the ball, because the play will be over before they find it. NFL defenders key the blocking, and rely on their read to make the play. Players who only read the ball are the guys chasing every play from behind.

      There's the snap to contend with and the RB is coming down fast. There's a real precision to the timing by the QB and RB and not much room for error. - If the college QB is not quick enough to take the snap and hand it off, then he is the problem, not the play. Again, something to drill thousands of times until he gets it right. Rivers was easily quick enough for all the pistol runs we did last few seasons. It works fine for the Chargers in the NFL. We need to run a lot more of it, not less.

      The RBs must have perfect steps. - yep, it's the NFL.

      Remember the QB is usually closer to the center than the shotgun so high snaps or snaps to the left or the right throw off the timing. - yep, the QB is closer, that's the point. There is enough room for backfield action and pulling/leading and motioning players to lead the play. It is a hybrid half shotgun/half I formation. If the snap is bad, it's the Center that is the problem, not the play. NFL teams rarely have more than about half a dozen bad snaps per year. Guys like Pouncey are borderline bad shotgun snappers, but that is the issue, not the play itself. Again watch the Ravens. Their entire offense is based on the Pistol action. Every NFL team uses the pistol, even if only to have it in the playbook to practice against it.

      Bad snaps also lead to more turnovers compared to the shotgun due to less reaction time. RPOs are possible but typically limit the QB to one read due to the aforementioned timing and line of sight issues as the QB is turning to the left or right to fake. - Again, the issue is the execution, not the play. Again, the Chargers have run the play a fair amount the last few years, and we haven't had any real problems with the QB and RB exchange. As with all the plays we run, the OL sucks, but that is the OL. They suck at everything, so it is them, not the play.

      In contrast, the shotgun is a bit easier to execute play action as the RB is coming from the side instead of behind, does not have as much build up speed, the QB is deeper in the shotgun, doesn't turn his back to the D as much, and has better line of sight. - You only threaten half the field, and the ball carrier is much more likely to lose yardage, because he is running parallel to the line initially, where the penetrating pass rushers can force the ball carrier
      to lose ground
      .

      Fewer timing issues overall. It's fine to have the pistol in the playbook but I wouldn't make it a major part of the offense. It also helps if the QB runs once in awhile so the D doesn't tee off on the RB. Oregon never ran from under center and it's much easier to run play action from under center from a ball handling and timing perspective. Herbert will adapt to playing under center fairly quickly IMO - Again, in the NFL, we haven't had any issues that I recall in the last couple years in the pistol. I don't recall any NFL teams having any real trouble with it. The Ravens have built their offense around it, and the copy cat NFL will probably do more of it not less next season.


      ​​​​​I'm familiar with the NFL, I do watch it. The NFL players are better, obviously. The Ravens have Lamar Jackson, a perfect QB to run the pistol. There are more moving parts with the pistol than the Ace/I. IMO it's easier for the RB to improvise from the I than the pistol because the RB has better visibility and there's more wiggle room/reaction time during the exchange. The pistol is not a good formation in obvious short yardage situations, it takes too long to develop. If Lynn wants to run more pistol, then Herbert is well prepared. Lynn will take advantage of Herbert's and Tyrod's movements skills which will be a contrast to the Rivers era. It will be interesting to see what he comes up with.

      Comment

      • chris9341
        Registered Charger Fan
        • Jul 2013
        • 784
        • Send PM

        [QUOTE=ChargingBolts ;n991931]I know Herbert may be a bust, or mediocre like a Ryan Fitzpatrick or even great like Phil but to get to the level we already had, why fix something that isn't broken?


        I'm as a big of a Rivers fan as I am the reality is it was broken. Not everything was his fault of why we lost but he was probably the biggest contributor of why we lost. I used to stick up for him a lot and would always say in order for Rivers to do well he needs a very good running game if he doesn't get that then he's not going to do well. This team was not going to win with Rivers as the QB. I get it it's hard getting used to a new player especially if they are replacing one of your favorite players. I remember when Rivers was drafted and how people were saying he was going to be bust and had no clue what they were talking about and now are saying Herbert is going to be a bust or will suck. There is no doubt that Rivers will go down as the greatest Charger QB ever but even the greats need to be replaced. I don't like how things ended with Rivers and had said that I hoped he would stay one more season and have Herbert or whoever the Chargers drafted learn from him. But the fact is now he has to learn from Tyrod Taylor.

        Comment

        • Parcells
          Registered Charger Fan
          • Jun 2013
          • 2235
          • Send PM

          Originally posted by Steve View Post

          Again Bill Walsh, Joe Montana and Steve Young, all used to swear that they would watch the game first, just from watching the QB footwork, and you could tell how the game went. If the footwork was good, the rest of it was so automatic, that they KNEW if was going to work. NFL QB have to get it set, but they ALWAYS have to work on it, year after year. It never is a thing you can take for granted.
          I remember once on ESPN they were discussing Vince You after he’d been in Tennessee for a couple years. They were debating if he was going to work out. Steve Young was betting against him. He pointed out that his footwork was garbage, just like when he entered the NFL. It showed him he was not doing the little things to become an elite QB.

          Comment

          • wu-dai clan
            Smooth Operation
            • May 2017
            • 12905
            • Send PM

            Originally posted by Steve View Post

            You are assuming that the only part of the game he has to learn is the mental aspect. If he has to unlearn his bad habits and then learn the mental part, it is probably going to take more than half a season. Again, look at the list of QB who have sat a year or more. Hall of Fame, longer term starters... Look at the guys thrown to the wolves .. a few make it, but all of them have better mechanics than Hebert. And so, so many of the guys who play early just never, every play well. How much of that is simply having their confidence broken and never regained. Think quicksand (The replacements - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i3O-kYwM8qY )
            Herbert can tranform, just like 2019 MVP Lamar Jackson did.

            Peyton Manning threw how many picks as a rookie.

            We drafted a toolsy, imperfect prospect.

            There are all sorts of examples of everything.

            There are outliers too.
            You don't know ball

            Comment

            • wu-dai clan
              Smooth Operation
              • May 2017
              • 12905
              • Send PM

              Originally posted by Parcells View Post

              I remember once on ESPN they were discussing Vince You after he’d been in Tennessee for a couple years. They were debating if he was going to work out. Steve Young was betting against him. He pointed out that his footwork was garbage, just like when he entered the NFL. It showed him he was not doing the little things to become an elite QB.
              Vince Young was very clearly overdrafted.
              Parcells, what is your assessment on the career of HOFer Phil Simms ?
              I still like Herbert's potential.
              You don't know ball

              Comment

              • Tol
                From Accounting
                • Mar 2019
                • 990
                • Carlsbad
                • Send PM

                A reminder: We get to watch Herbert, Murray and the rest of the Chargers on Hard Knocks (assuming we have a training camp and all). So should be interesting to see him get coached up, and watch the new OL coach in action.

                Comment

                • Lone Bolt
                  Brock Bowers N.M.W.
                  • Feb 2019
                  • 4061
                  • McLean Illinois
                  • Pipefitter Illinois State University
                  • Send PM

                  Originally posted by Tol View Post
                  A reminder: We get to watch Herbert, Murray and the rest of the Chargers on Hard Knocks (assuming we have a training camp and all). So should be interesting to see him get coached up, and watch the new OL coach in action.
                  Holy shit....I absolutely, completely forgot all about that....

                  Of course, Hard Knocks may not even happen this year...or a very abbreviated version will be produced if their is an abbreviated camp prior to a shortened season.
                  The TPB makes plans....

                  And Jim Harbaugh laughs...

                  Comment

                  • AsaFLBoltfan
                    Registered Charger Fan
                    • Apr 2020
                    • 43
                    • Longwood , FL
                    • Manager
                    • Send PM

                    Originally posted by Steve View Post

                    You are assuming that the only part of the game he has to learn is the mental aspect. If he has to unlearn his bad habits and then learn the mental part, it is probably going to take more than half a season. Again, look at the list of QB who have sat a year or more. Hall of Fame, longer term starters... Look at the guys thrown to the wolves .. a few make it, but all of them have better mechanics than Hebert. And so, so many of the guys who play early just never, every play well. How much of that is simply having their confidence broken and never regained. Think quicksand (The replacements - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i3O-kYwM8qY )
                    The notion of guys just sitting anymore, just isn’t true. Look back since 2008. The only 1st rounder who sat most of the season who is good is Mahommes, the other 4 were terrible. The other 34 started 6 games or more and from there it was talent. The ones who truly “have” it succeeded and the others just didn’t have it.

                    Comment

                    • Budsman
                      Registered Charger Fan
                      • May 2017
                      • 2179
                      • Send PM

                      Originally posted by SYB View Post

                      Oh FFS.. :sigh:

                      And to be clear, I do didn't call YOU a name. I threw out a blanket statement, that you stepped up and tried to own
                      Suffice to say you attacked me with profane names and then decided it was a good idea to use a racially charged phrase. You made some really bad decisions and you should own that, you won’t and that speaks to your character.

                      I’m sure fleet would prefer we didn’t continue this discussion here so if you feel the need to communicate about your actions please continue them in DM, thanks.

                      Comment

                      • Budsman
                        Registered Charger Fan
                        • May 2017
                        • 2179
                        • Send PM

                        [QUOTE=chris9341;n992822]
                        Originally posted by ChargingBolts View Post
                        I know Herbert may be a bust, or mediocre like a Ryan Fitzpatrick or even great like Phil but to get to the level we already had, why fix something that isn't broken?


                        I'm as a big of a Rivers fan as I am the reality is it was broken. Not everything was his fault of why we lost but he was probably the biggest contributor of why we lost. I used to stick up for him a lot and would always say in order for Rivers to do well he needs a very good running game if he doesn't get that then he's not going to do well. This team was not going to win with Rivers as the QB. I get it it's hard getting used to a new player especially if they are replacing one of your favorite players. I remember when Rivers was drafted and how people were saying he was going to be bust and had no clue what they were talking about and now are saying Herbert is going to be a bust or will suck. There is no doubt that Rivers will go down as the greatest Charger QB ever but even the greats need to be replaced. I don't like how things ended with Rivers and had said that I hoped he would stay one more season and have Herbert or whoever the Chargers drafted learn from him. But the fact is now he has to learn from Tyrod Taylor.
                        Completely disagree about not winning with rivers but what we can agree on is we won’t win with Taylor and we don’t know if we can win with Herbert so I guess if we’re going to lose anyway next season and sit at 8-8 or even 10-6 and one and done we may as well tank with the rookie let him learn and get a nice big OT in next years draft.

                        I don’t know it seems like a better plan than mediocrity.

                        Comment

                        • like54ninjas
                          Registered Charger Fan
                          • Oct 2017
                          • 8211
                          • Great White North
                          • Draftnik
                          • Send PM

                          Originally posted by Budsman View Post

                          Suffice to say you attacked me with profane names and then decided it was a good idea to use a racially charged phrase. You made some really bad decisions and you should own that, you won’t and that speaks to your character.

                          I’m sure fleet would prefer we didn’t continue this discussion here so if you feel the need to communicate about your actions please continue them in DM, thanks.
                          Take it easy snowy. I think you protest too much.
                          My 2021 Adopt-A-Bolt List

                          MikeDub
                          K9
                          Nasir
                          Tillery
                          Parham
                          Reed

                          Comment

                          Working...
                          X
                          😀
                          😂
                          🥰
                          😘
                          🤢
                          😎
                          😞
                          😡
                          👍
                          👎