Patriots at Chargers - Game Day Thread!

[Yubaking]

Your an idiot! Who cares who starts the first play of the game if the other guy is playing more snaps? Only YOU who has an agenda. And he should of had 2 INTs? Says the guy who sits at a desk all day. Again, what an idiot. I expect you to chastise Weddle or Verrett or any other DB who drops a INT they should of had. Theres a reason they are DBs. They cant catch and every defenser drops INTs they should of had.

What does Conners tackles on STs VS Buffalo have to do with anything? That whole bolded part of your response is just a bunch of jibberish bullshit. And it wasnt a broken tackle. He didnt even lay a hand on him when he should of and it was a shit effort.

Talking to you is almost like discussing this with my Wife who knows nothing about Football at all.
You are perhaps the most clueless poster we have here as far as knowing anything about football and its a waste of time responding to you.

Holy shit on stick! You are the one that seemed to take issue with the fact that I mentioned that Conner was the starter. I simply pointed out that it means nothing more than the player that starts the game. In other words, you are making way too much out of it.

I do think it is worth noting that Conner plays on clear running downs, Te'o plays on clear passing downs and Conner plays when it is not clearly a passing down or a running down. To me, that says that the team would rather face having Conner defend a passing play than have Te'o facing a running play.

The coaches are telling us what they think by their actions. They want the best personnel groupings for each possible situation so the team will win. They are not splitting snaps virtually right down the middle in most instances to keep players fresh without an eye toward winning. Winning comes first. And no NFL coach that I can recall decided to split snaps because he thought that was the best way to win.

Also, when the Rams were forced to go pass heavy, Te'o played more snaps (i.e., he was not being "kept fresh"), which shows that the "keeping players fresh argument" as the primary motivation is pure bullshit. We are playing with situational personnel groupings pure and simple. Freshness has nothing to do with it as a primary motivating factor. However, I acknowledge that the coaches have identified keeping players fresh as a collateral benefit of the rotation.

Going back to your earlier post, Te'o could be not 100% because of his foot injury, but that does not mean that Conner is not better right now in the situations in which he is playing than Te'o is. From the preseason on, though, Conner has looked better than Te'o versus the run and I mentioned that way before we went to our current rotation. I think this is what the coaches have seen as well plus they recognized that we have been strong against the pass, but weaker against the run. It is not nearly as mysterious as you and some others are suggesting in an effort to justify Conner taking snaps from Te'o. What is happening is readily apparent.

Regarding the bolded paragraph, you made the comment to pump Te'o that he had 10 tackles whereas Conner only had 3. The point of my response was that Conner did not even play ILB in that game, just ST, so Conner was never going to have more tackles than Te'o in that game. Te'o also had more tackles than Hardwick in that game, but Hardwick was on IR and plays offense even when he is healthy. Your comment has about that much value--that is, none. I expect a player not playing defense not to have as many tackles as someone who is playing most or the whole game on defense.

Further, regarding 10 tackles versus 9 or 8 for Conner in his team leading games, as noted above, my recollection is that Te'o played the vast majority of the snaps versus BUF. Conner has never played more than 50% of the defensive snaps since the rotation began and yet he has led the team in tackles twice in 4 games. That fits what I am seeing--a guy who is kind of all over the place even to the point that he might miss a play or two that he is there to make in addition to the ones that he does make. Conner is not perfect, but I can live with that more so than I can with players that are not shedding blockers and are not even getting there as often to make plays (which I think describes Te'o versus the run).

And I guess I will have to explain further about my comment about cheating against the run versus BUF since it appears to have been missed (my fault for not explaining it better). The point is that BUF was much better running the ball than passing it, which they were so bad at that they benched their QB. So, our defenders should have known what to expect in that game, which makes it easier to make plays. Perhaps not tons and tons easier, but maybe a little bit easier.

Finally, you must have missed it when I have been all over Weddle, Gilchrist and others when they dropped INTs and made other mistakes and our offensive players when they failed to make plays as well. I was even critical of Rivers, my favorite Charger, when he missed the pass to an open Floyd in the end zone against the Chiefs, which turned a TD into an FG, which ended up being very important in that game. So, yeah, I am glad Te'o made the INT that he did make, but when a player has both hands on the ball and lets it go right between his arms, I am going to suggest that he should have caught the ball and be unhappy when the other team then goes on to score points that otherwise would not have been scored.

I do not see anything incorrect or questionable about the above.

[KNSD]

Hey maybe Te'o baited Brady into that throw? I used to do stuff like that all the time - playing flag football and not real football. Not the same thing, but the concepts are the same. Anyways, bottom line is that the QB has an easy read if you cover the receiver too tightly OR too loose.

What Te'o did was put Brady in the "indecisive zone" where he didn't know whether or not Gronk was really covered, which leads to indecision, which leads to turnovers. If you say the previous sentence with a "Yoda" like voice it'll make more sense. That indecisiveness lead to not only a poor decision (to make that throw - there was no way Gronk was getting that ball in the line of action in which Brady was throwing), but also a poor throw (the throw was too weak).

[Yubaking]

Sadly, I do think you're serious. John Jenkins is a stud, he's been a huge impact player and will be a great starter for the Saints for years to come. Maybe, but doubt it. Keenen Allen is a stud, he's been a huge impact player and a great starter for the Chargers. That's a fact. I have no idea why you feel the need to discount the contributions of a player on your favorite team in a pitiful attempt to justify your draft day proclamations. Get over it, enjoy Allen. And all your arguments are foolish, not just on this thread, most of the time spectacularly foolish. You have been spectacularly wrong so many times most have lost count. BKR nailed it with 'double down on stupid' in regards to Allen but expect nothing less from you.

I am definitely serious that you cornered the market on foolish arguments with your mentioning of Brady and Wynn in the same breath as Allen and Jenkins as if there were any comparison at all. Like I said, whatever foolish arguments I may have made, I can't compete with that level of foolishness.

I was serious about your utter failure to understand the trade you suggested from the other team's perspective. Allen adds nothing to the Saints because he could only fill the role of Colston in the Saints offense. Allen isn't filling the role of the two speedy young WRs (Stills and Cooks) who are both perfect for clearing out the shallow areas for Graham to operate. Allen is not going to offer the running aspect of Cooks' game with his 10+ YPC average on 7 carries in 10 games. Allen isn't going to match Cooks' 4.33 speed or Stills' 4.38 speed, which is perfect for carpet ball.

Where Allen could compete is with Colston. And that competition is too close to warrant the Saints trading away Jenkins to get Allen. Given the other hands to fill in the Saints diversified attack, I don't see Allen doing any better than Colston has done since Allen has been in the league. Colston is 31 and does not seem to be done. So the Saints would not gain much by adding Allen.

But they would lose their current starter and projected starter next year at NT in such a trade. You can tell what the team is doing with Bunkley's contract 10 miles away. He is dirt cheap this year and costs them something like $3+M more in base salary next year for an aging veteran. It shouldn't be too difficult to imagine that Bunkley is as good as gone unless either 1) he restructures or 2) the Saints dump Ryan (who has been openly defensive of Jenkins) and/or dump the 3-4. And if Bunkley is gone, who is going to be their starting NT in 2015? Could it possibly be Jenkins?

If they want another WR, the Saints will just draft one as they have in each of the past two seasons. Why would a team choose to deal with the difficulty of finding a comparatively scarce legitimate NFL NT instead of simply drafting a comparatively dime a dozen position like WR. If they miss the playoffs, they will be picking well within the top 16 and could likely get a Devante Parker in the first round or maybe Sammy Coates in the second based upon current CBS rankings. If they make the playoffs, they could likely get a DGB or Jaelen Strong in round 1. I would take any of those guys over Allen right now and I am not mentioning Kevin White because I do not care for him as much but he is also highly rated.

By contrast, the only highly rated pure NT in the whole draft is Danny Shelton and some on this forum have raised doubt about him. After that, the Saints would be having to deal with lesser options. Why would they choose to put themselves through that? That makes no sense.

But that underscores the whole problem. You can't separate yourself from you Chargers fan status and look at the trade from the other side because it sounds like a rejection of Allen, which, of course, it is not. It is just a recognition of what another team has, how they are set up and why they would or would not do one particular trade.

[sandiego17]

I am definitely serious that you cornered the market on foolish arguments with your mentioning of Brady and Wynn in the same breath as Allen and Jenkins as if there were any comparison at all. Like I said, whatever foolish arguments I may have made, I can't compete with that level of foolishness.

I was serious about your utter failure to understand the trade you suggested from the other team's perspective. Allen adds nothing to the Saints because he could only fill the role of Colston in the Saints offense. Allen isn't filling the role of the two speedy young WRs (Stills and Cooks) who are both perfect for clearing out the shallow areas for Graham to operate. Allen is not going to offer the running aspect of Cooks' game with his 10+ YPC average on 7 carries in 10 games. Allen isn't going to match Cooks' 4.33 speed or Stills' 4.38 speed, which is perfect for carpet ball.

Where Allen could compete is with Colston. And that competition is too close to warrant the Saints trading away Jenkins to get Allen. Given the other hands to fill in the Saints diversified attack, I don't see Allen doing any better than Colston has done since Allen has been in the league. Colston is 31 and does not seem to be done. So the Saints would not gain much by adding Allen.

Except, not at all what I said. I don't give a rats ass about Jenkins. As of now he's a third rounder who hasn't shown much if anything and your Saints fans enthusiasm is flimsy evidence of anything. Allen is a stud, despite your pretend evaluation of his severe non-athletisism. Did you see the catches he made in Baltimore?

But they would lose their current starter and projected starter next year at NT in such a trade. You can tell what the team is doing with Bunkley's contract 10 miles away. He is dirt cheap this year and costs them something like $3+M more in base salary next year for an aging veteran. It shouldn't be too difficult to imagine that Bunkley is as good as gone unless either 1) he restructures or 2) the Saints dump Ryan (who has been openly defensive of Jenkins) and/or dump the 3-4. And if Bunkley is gone, who is going to be their starting NT in 2015? Could it possibly be Jenkins?

We will see. Wouldn't surprise me in the least if its not.

If they want another WR, the Saints will just draft one as they have in each of the past two seasons. Why would a team choose to deal with the difficulty of finding a comparatively scarce legitimate NFL NT instead of simply drafting a comparatively dime a dozen position like WR. If they miss the playoffs, they will be picking well within the top 16 and could likely get a Devante Parker in the first round or maybe Sammy Coates in the second based upon current CBS rankings. If they make the playoffs, they could likely get a DGB or Jaelen Strong in round 1. I would take any of those guys over Allen right now and I am not mentioning Kevin White because I do not care for him as much but he is also highly rated.

Are you really trying to say Allen is a dime a dozen type WR? Doubling down on stupid is being kind.

By contrast, the only highly rated pure NT in the whole draft is Danny Shelton and some on this forum have raised doubt about him. After that, the Saints would be having to deal with lesser options. Why would they choose to put themselves through that? That makes no sense.

If the same draft were held today, Allen would go much higher than he went. What has Jenkins done to justify his draft spot or moving up. Whatever man, there is literally NOTHING Allen could do on the field to change your mind, you made it up pre-draft and that's that.

But that underscores the whole problem. You can't separate yourself from you Chargers fan status and look at the trade from the other side because it sounds like a rejection of Allen, which, of course, it is not. It is just a recognition of what another team has, how they are set up and why they would or would not do one particular trade.

Ok. You're the objective one. That's hilarious.

[Yubaking]

I wish you had a semblance of self-awareness and recognized how annoying you are.



To everyone else, Allen is already a very productive receiver who would certainly have been picked much higher if that draft was held again. Your crystal-balling of John Jenkins' future compared to actual production by Allen is worthless.



I wish the Chargers would hire you since you know everything and can predict the future. What's also nice is that what you say is a fact for the mere reason that you utter it.



You keep saying this despite presenting literally ZERO evidence save for what you "say." Awesome. I say Ryan Mathews is better than Jim Brown. It is so because I have said it is so.



Perhaps they are foolish. I won't judge that. But what's really foolish is your own pumped up opinion of yourself, your intellect and your recitations of 'facts,' which are really just opinions.

Allen is productive, but the Saints would not do the trade that was suggested for the reasons that I have identified. And how teams see players going forward is entirely relevant to what that team is willing or unwilling to do with respect to that player. The Saints spent considerable draft currency to trade back into the third round to get Jenkins, which shows they valued him then. He played well for them as a rookie, showing his potential. With NT being so difficult to fill and scarce in the draft and free agency in terms real quality, unless another team improved drastically at another position, the Saints aren't going to part with Jenkins unless they stop believing in him or change their defensive scheme such that what he offers as a zero technique NT are no longer of value to the team.

I think Bunkley's contract tells us at least when the current one was made that the team then thought that Jenkins would be their man going forward because it is set up to make Bunkley a salary cap casualty next year.

I think reasonable predictions can be made based upon an interpretation of known factors. the prediction may or may not come to pass, but please do not suggest for one second that my view is not carefully considered even if you see things differently.

Finally, I did give you a bunch of evidence regarding why Cooks should be viewed as the superior player. Cooks has better physical tools. He is way faster than Allen, like the difference between Addae and Rivers faster. Cooks was on pace to catch more passes than Allen did as a rookie before he broke his thumb. Cooks is a threat as a ball carrier on running plays as evidenced by his 10+ YPC on 7 carries. Cooks is more of a deep/breakaway threat than Allen. He already has more 40+ yard catches than Allen does in his entire career despite playing in only about one-third of the number of games. In the Combine, Cooks hands appeared to be better than Allen's. Cooks was recognized as a first round talent in a draft loaded with productive rookie WRs. Allen was regarded as a third round talent in a draft more shallow at WR than the 2014 draft. Cooks appears quicker than Allen. Cooks had superior production in college than Allen. As I said, someone please tell me one thing that Allen does better than Cooks. I do not see a single one.

No evidence. Sheesh!

[Yubaking]

Except, not at all what I said. I don't give a rats ass about Jenkins. As of now he's a third rounder who hasn't shown much if anything and your Saints fans enthusiasm is flimsy evidence of anything. Allen is a stud, despite your pretend evaluation of his severe non-athletisism. Did you see the catches he made in Baltimore?



We will see. Wouldn't surprise me in the least if its not.



Are you really trying to say Allen is a dime a dozen type WR? Doubling down on stupid is being kind.



If the same draft were held today, Allen would go much higher than he went. What has Jenkins done to justify his draft spot or moving up. Whatever man, there is literally NOTHING Allen could do on the field to change your mind, you made it up pre-draft and that's that.



Ok. You're the objective one. That's hilarious.

I think Allen would go higher than he went, but he still is limited and the players that I named that the Saints could draft are legitimate first round and early second round WRs that have physical tools that are better than Allen's and are more of the type the Saints prefer.

And what I said was that WRs are a dime a dozen compared to NTs in general. It is MUCH easier to get a good WR than it is a good NT and that matters.

And you are having trouble being objective because you can't imagine that a team could possibly be not be interested in Allen. You literally said in another post that he would play for every team. If you meant that he would be a #1 or #2 WR for every team in the NFL, you are delusional. There are several teams on which Allen would not even be the #2 WR and I named those (and I gave Allen the advantage over an aging Wayne and improving Moncrief otherwise I might have added the Colts to that list--DEN, TB, CHI, HOU). And I now realize that I forgot to add ARI to that list and in a year or two, it would not surprise me if IND and PIT were added to the list.

You are not being objective about what the Saints' needs are, what their depth is, how they could account/adjust for such a trade, which position is easier for them to fill, what their scheme is, what their plans for Jenkins appear to be, what they see as the potential for Jenkins and Allen, none of it. Your whole argument seems to be: Allen has been the better player so far so of course the Saints would do the trade. But even if that were true, that does not begin to constitute a meaningful objective analysis of the situation. It completely fails to address many of the key issues involved, a number of which I have raised.

So, yeah, I am the objective one here. You are the one that is not being objective.

[Yubaking]

Hey maybe Te'o baited Brady into that throw? I used to do stuff like that all the time - playing flag football and not real football. Not the same thing, but the concepts are the same. Anyways, bottom line is that the QB has an easy read if you cover the receiver too tightly OR too loose.

What Te'o did was put Brady in the "indecisive zone" where he didn't know whether or not Gronk was really covered, which leads to indecision, which leads to turnovers. If you say the previous sentence with a "Yoda" like voice it'll make more sense. That indecisiveness lead to not only a poor decision (to make that throw - there was no way Gronk was getting that ball in the line of action in which Brady was throwing), but also a poor throw (the throw was too weak).

I thought what happened was that Brady had an easy throw over the top fo rthe TD, but that he couldn't really follow through on the throw because our pass rush encroached on his follow through. Either that or he flat out yipped the throw.

[Stinky Wizzleteats+]

Actualy Freeney caused that int with a technical pressure!

[KNSD]

I thought what happened was that Brady had an easy throw over the top fo rthe TD, but that he couldn't really follow through on the throw because our pass rush encroached on his follow through. Either that or he flat out yipped the throw.

the window for that throw was VERY tight - in the line of action of the throw. if Brady would have lobbed it to the deep part of the endzone, then maybe... but he was throwing to the front corner of the endzone. And there, Te'o was in a great spot.

[sandiego17]

I think Allen would go higher than he went, but he still is limited and the players that I named that the Saints could draft are legitimate first round and early second round WRs that have physical tools that are better than Allen's and are more of the type the Saints prefer.

What exactly, other than 4o time, are the physical tools that Allen lacks? He's 6'2", he's quick, he has great hands, excellent route runner and he's what, 22, if that? You may think you're being 'objective' but you're merely justifying your preconceived notions with this jibberish. Objective my ass.

[ArtistFormerlyKnownAsBKR]

I watched the video more than 10 times yesterday and more than 10 times today.

I think this just might be a major source of your problem right here.

[ArtistFormerlyKnownAsBKR]

How can you go from this

To me, that says that the team would rather face having Conner defend a passing play than have Te'o facing a running play.

to this:

The coaches are telling us what they think by their actions.

I think this is what the coaches have seen as

to this:

What is happening is readily apparent.

Conner has never played more than 50% of the defensive snaps since the rotation began and yet he has led the team in tackles twice in 4 games. That fits what I am seeing--a guy who is kind of all over the place even to the point that he might miss a play or two that he is there to make in addition to the ones that he does make. Conner is not perfect, but I can live with that more so than I can with players that are not shedding blockers and are not even getting there as often to make plays (which I think describes Te'o versus the run).

Te'o is not coming back from a foot injury, so should be evaluated on that basis.

I do not see anything incorrect or questionable about the above.

And this is why you are God.