Kickoff Specialist

[Steve]

First, you always need a large sample size to see how anything pans out statistically. How do you know that it is not just your perception (and perceptions are often flawed)? I understand the snapshot thing, but the nature of statistics is that the thing you are looking at is not evenly distributed through the season. You need a lot of samples to see how it works out long term.

The other issue is why is it just about kickoffs? Is field position after a punt really any different? It's about field position, plain and simple.

And looking back historically, you have a much greater chance of scoring yourself (and therefore preventing a score) if the other team starts on the other side of the 20 yard line. A few yard allowed over the 20 doesn't really change their chance of score much. I don't understand how you think that isn't true?

[MakoShark]

You only get 16 samples a season to look over. We've had 15 of those so far and I think what most are trying to say is that a pattern has emerged and we are recognizing a weakness. Savage Lizards post was just 1 of 15 identical snapshots.

This thread is focused on the issue of less than desirable kick off coverage. Punt coverage is not an issue. That's a different kicker and better coverage unit.

I understand that a few yards over the 20 doesn't really change things. But you are assuming we make the stop within a few yards of the 20 every time. I don't see that as the case. We have given up big returns and a few were dangerously close to going all the way. ST scores are game changers and I for one, feel like we're flirting with disaster on our kickoffs too often.

[Yubaking]

To say this is the Chargers most pressing issue is just plain dumb.

An area of concern? Yes.

I did not see anyone say that this is the team's most pressing need. Did someone say that?

I have seen several posters, including myself, note that this an area that needs improvement.

For my part, I specifically noted that this was not the area of greatest need.

I think most of us are of the view that the OL is the area of greatest need going into 2015.

[Yubaking]

The flaw in Savage lizards look (besides looking at too small a sample) is that all yards are not created equal. How many yards can a team expect to gain, and since you know how many yards you expect to give up on a play, you have to ask how many plays can a team run before they put together enough negative plays/incomplete passes/penalties before they stop themselves?

The point isn't that the touchback is safer, because it is. It also nets better field position on average. But the field position is not as important as the drives/field position you gain when the other team is forced back. That is worth more than the field position you give up, which is negligibly important.

Why did we pay to keep Scfries? Why for Tutu and Stuckey? if you just kick for touchbacks (punts and kickoffs), you don't need to spend the extra salary cap space on those guys, because it wouldn't matter. But the field position is worth it, even if you don't always get it, because the times that you do get it pays off far more then when it doesn't.

Steve, punting and kickoffs are two wholly different animals. Punters can gain much greater height on their punts than kickers can on kickoffs. Also, punters pinning an opponent deep are often doing so from past their own 35 yard line. And gunners can run beyond the line of scrimmage before the ball is punted. All of these aspects strongly favor punt coverage over kickoff coverage.

We have seen that if you change certain aspects, then the strategy may differ. That was why it was an acceptable strategy to kick short against the 49ers when we had the kickoff at the 50 yard line. Not every team does that, but one would naturally expect the result to be more favorable than it would be with a short kickoff from the 35 yard line because the coverage unit starts from 15 yards further up the field.

I agree with MakoShark that while Savage Lizard's sample size may be small, it does reflect the result of kicking the ball short that we have generally seen throughout the season.

The reason why teams with kickers with big legs go for the TBs is because it is a better strategy than trying to kick short if you have a kicker who can regularly execute the strategy. The reason that we kick short is because we cannot get enough regular TBs because our kicker lacks the ability to do so at a high enough percentage versus kicking low line drives that can be returned effectively by opponents.

So, in our team's case, we are kicking short because kicking long risks producing disastrous results with some regularity. If we had Carolina's kickoff man, I can guarantee you that we would be trying to blast the ball out of the end zone just about every time in regular kickoff situations.

[Steve]

Yube, you would go out and get a kicker like that, but you would do a lot of stupid things to hand another team the game. Your stance of DL, WR and CB proves it. You would be a horrible coach, and you game plans would be playing to the other team.

Next, learn the fucking rules. Gunners are not allowed to run past the line before the ball is kicked. That is true of both kickoffs and punts. Gunners are allowed to run towards the line before a kickoff, but cannot cross the line. Lane guys on KO have to be stationary (now) on kickoffs, although that is only the last couple of years. On punts gunners are the only players allowed to release prior to the punt, but they are like WR in that they cannot move until the ball is snapped. The lane players on P must stay behind the line until the ball is kicked.

For your information dumbass, hang time is just as important in kickoffs as it is in punts. The reason it is important is that coverage players cover about 10 yards for every second the ball is in the air (slightly less until they get up to speed, slightly more the longer it is in the air). So, regardless of height, hang time is important to coverage teams, and that will always be the case for kickoffs and punts. It doesn't matter what kind of kick it is, unless somehow players change how fast they run.

Does the other team care about how they get the ball? No. It is where on the field they start. The historical scoring by field position includes punts, kickoffs and turnovers. It is wherever the team starts it's drives, so in this case, it doesn't matter how it gets there. You are less likely to score any points, to the point that you set the other team up. Therefore, it doesn't matter how it gets there.

You are saying that field position does not equal points, which is bullshit. When I coached pee wee football, everyone I coached with and against knew that. Your can't possibly tell me that it isn't the case, because it is a historical fact. But dumb ass people like you who use single line of thought and ignore any other factor. It is tragically flawed unless you put everything together. get your fucking head out of your ass and use your brains for a change. Just about every argument you use is done that way and it is getting tiresome.

The only argument that you might have is if we were giving up long returns to the point that either the starting field position was really bad, or that we were giving up points off of returns, either of which has been the case. If anything, when you look at the points allowed the last few games, the thing that sticks out is that our D has been playing well outside of some mental mistakes and missed tackles. When guys play their lanes, don't over pursue and use good technique tackling, we play pretty good D. When guys either overrun plays (Den) or miss tackle (SF), we give up points. But again, SL points out that we gave up 1 long return, and forced 5 others that force the other team to start with horrible field position.

The SF game it really didn't matter how we kicked off anyway. The missed tackles on Gore and Kapernick's long run, along with some blown coverages and missed tackles set up most of the SF points. But in games were we don't give the other team free points like that, field position is usually decisive. Look back at the games early in the year, and you can see that it was a big part of our wins. It may be less important since McBriar is not holding up that end of the job like Scfries was.

[Fleet]

Is it possible for you guys to debate and disagree without attacking each other personally? Maybe its the Christmas Spirit in me but it would be nice if these battles could be toned down as far as the personal attacks go. Calling each other names is sort of not what we are trying to do here.

[Yubaking]

Is it possible for you guys to debate and disagree without attacking each other personally? Maybe its the Christmas Spirit in me but it would be nice if these battles could be toned down as far as the personal attacks go. Calling each other names is sort of not what we are trying to do here.

No problem, Fleet, but I did not call him any names at all in the post to which Steve responded as he did.

[Yubaking]

Yube, you would go out and get a kicker like that, but you would do a lot of stupid things to hand another team the game. Your stance of DL, WR and CB proves it. You would be a horrible coach, and you game plans would be playing to the other team.

Next, learn the fucking rules. Gunners are not allowed to run past the line before the ball is kicked. That is true of both kickoffs and punts. Gunners are allowed to run towards the line before a kickoff, but cannot cross the line. Lane guys on KO have to be stationary (now) on kickoffs, although that is only the last couple of years. On punts gunners are the only players allowed to release prior to the punt, but they are like WR in that they cannot move until the ball is snapped. The lane players on P must stay behind the line until the ball is kicked.

For your information dumbass, hang time is just as important in kickoffs as it is in punts. The reason it is important is that coverage players cover about 10 yards for every second the ball is in the air (slightly less until they get up to speed, slightly more the longer it is in the air). So, regardless of height, hang time is important to coverage teams, and that will always be the case for kickoffs and punts. It doesn't matter what kind of kick it is, unless somehow players change how fast they run.

Does the other team care about how they get the ball? No. It is where on the field they start. The historical scoring by field position includes punts, kickoffs and turnovers. It is wherever the team starts it's drives, so in this case, it doesn't matter how it gets there. You are less likely to score any points, to the point that you set the other team up. Therefore, it doesn't matter how it gets there.

You are saying that field position does not equal points, which is bullshit. When I coached pee wee football, everyone I coached with and against knew that. Your can't possibly tell me that it isn't the case, because it is a historical fact. But dumb ass people like you who use single line of thought and ignore any other factor. It is tragically flawed unless you put everything together. get your fucking head out of your ass and use your brains for a change. Just about every argument you use is done that way and it is getting tiresome.

The only argument that you might have is if we were giving up long returns to the point that either the starting field position was really bad, or that we were giving up points off of returns, either of which has been the case. If anything, when you look at the points allowed the last few games, the thing that sticks out is that our D has been playing well outside of some mental mistakes and missed tackles. When guys play their lanes, don't over pursue and use good technique tackling, we play pretty good D. When guys either overrun plays (Den) or miss tackle (SF), we give up points. But again, SL points out that we gave up 1 long return, and forced 5 others that force the other team to start with horrible field position.

The SF game it really didn't matter how we kicked off anyway. The missed tackles on Gore and Kapernick's long run, along with some blown coverages and missed tackles set up most of the SF points. But in games were we don't give the other team free points like that, field position is usually decisive. Look back at the games early in the year, and you can see that it was a big part of our wins. It may be less important since McBriar is not holding up that end of the job like Scfries was.

First, I will refer you to Rule 9, Article 2. That rule states "During a kick from scrimmage, only the end men (eligible receivers) on the line of scrimmage at the time of the snap, or an eligible receiver who is aligned or in motion behind the line and is more than one yard outside the end man, are permitted to advance more than one yard beyond the line before the ball is kicked." [Emphasis added.]

Second, you might recall that the Rams ran a fake punt against us on which the punter completed a pass to the WR several yards down the field for a first down. If the rule were as you suggest, that play would have resulted in a penalty because the receiver was more than a yard beyond the line of scrimmage before the ball was kicked and continued to be so after he ran with the still not kicked ball after making a reception.

As I said and as the rules and game examples prove, gunners can release down the field before the ball is kicked.

Third, nobody is suggesting that hang time is not important on kickoffs. What I said was that it is much easier to get hang time on punts than kickoffs. I said that in support of my position that punts and kickoffs are different animals, which I asserted in response to your discussion about Scifres, which has absolutely nothing to do with the issue of our kickoffs.

In the case of punts, you have a line that can be one yard past the line of scrimmage on a kick that is taking place 10+ yards behind the line of scrimmage, plus two gunners who can run down the field roughly two seconds before the ball is kicked. Those players are chasing a higher kick that covers less distance from the line of scrimmage. Of course, they will be in a better position to cover kicks when it comes to pinning the other team deep in its own end than a team would be on a regular kickoff that is not a TB.

Fourth, I am not saying that "field position does not equal points". What I am saying actually supports the opposite position.

I have clearly and repeatedly stated that TBs pin the opponent further back as a general rule, which is fully supported by savage Lizard's single game snapshot versus SF, OIP's discussion about our many kickoff's since our last TB, and what has happened throughout the season, which is so obvious that only a blind person could miss it.

I think field position does matter, which is why our coaches would have to be morons to voluntarily choose habitually giving our opponents better field position if they could just routinely get TBs. But since Novak can't routinely get TBs, the team is doing its best to deal with the problem by kicking higher shorter kickoffs instead of trying to blast it, which results in line drives (because Novak lacks the leg to kick it both high and deep) that can be returned.

[oneinchpunch]

Field position can't matter and not matter at the same time. Which somehow is the argument against a KO Specialist.

[MakoShark]

Yube, you would go out and get a kicker like that, but you would do a lot of stupid things to hand another team the game. Your stance of DL, WR and CB proves it. You would be a horrible coach, and you game plans would be playing to the other team.

Next, learn the fucking rules. Gunners are not allowed to run past the line before the ball is kicked. That is true of both kickoffs and punts.

I stopped reading after this. Your argument loses all merit when you in fact do not know the rule. IMO, your blind hatred of all things Yuba is affecting your cognitive thinking. Have you read the entire thread or are you just cherry picking bits and pieces?

[Savage Lizard]

The point isn't that the touchback is safer, because it is. It also nets better field position on average. But the field position is not as important as the drives/field position you gain when the other team is forced back. That is worth more than the field position you give up, which is negligibly important.

Why are the handful of yards allowed "negligible" but the handful of yards gained (inside the 20) not negligible? Unless you somehow pin them inside the 10-15 yard line, tackling them at the 17 isn't really any better than tackling them at the 23. And to get those three yards when you tackled them at the 17, you had to risk giving up a return TD. Again, if I had the time and inclination, I bet the number of times we pinned the opponents inside the 15 yard line is way less than the number of times they returned the ball past the 20. But of course if Novak doesn't have the leg to kick touchbacks, I guess you do what you can.

Punts are a whole different animal, as there is far more hang time for coverage teams to get downfield, and also fair catching comes into play.

[Stinky Wizzleteats+]

Field position can't matter and not matter at the same time. Which somehow is the argument against a KO Specialist.

When matter and not matter touch the whole world ends.