Your 2015 projected starters...

[Steve]

That 70% is a little exagerated since we play no base 3-4 vs Denver whom we play twice. Sure we still play a lot of nickel but you stil have to cover a WR. Robinson was brought here for a reason and its probably more than you think it is.

I dont see Mager being much for us this season unless we have injuries there which would be bad, but we'll see. Peyton will throw at him all day if he is in the game. I like his potentual but im not expecting much this year. Hope im wrong though.

Why is it exaggerated? If anything I would say it is conservative. We play Oakland and KC, two of the worst WR teams in football. They play as little 3 WR stuff as any teams you are likely to face. Sea didn't play as much as a lot of teams. That was 5 games right there were we played nickle because we wanted a matchup advantage from having a DB who can play some run.

It is what it is. And I doubt that most other teams are any different. The few teams who mention the numbers are right up there in the upper 60's, and some of them are VERY THIN in the secondary, like Washington, yet they still play their nickle and dime that much. Sure, they may not play Denver, but there are a ton of teams who play a lot of 3 WR sets (Washington playing Philly and Dallas). Are other teams going to stop playing 3 WR as much?

Teams have been playing 60-70% of their snaps in the nickle and dime for the last 30 years (since the mid 80's). This is not a new thing, only a lot of fans finally have taken notice of it. NFL teams throw close to 60% of their downs, and a lot of their runs come from personnel groups that force us to matchup. They do that intentionally.

Robinson was brought in for depth and to be another CB, where we are extremely thin. His contract screams it. If you pay vet minimum, you get a vet minimum player, but that doesn't mean that even if he is getting vet backup money that he isn't still a backup.

IF we play anyone in the nickle spot besides Mager, it will be Wilson, who is a hybrid S/CB type. He is replacing a hybrid S/CB in Gilchrist. And they have brought in Mager, a hybrid S/CB, to ultimately play the spot.

I don't disagree that on 3rd and long, we may sub out the regular nickle DB and bring in a pure CB. We did that a lot last year when we had 3 CB healthy. But Verrett and Wright didn't play nickle DB except on more obvious passing downs, and Gilchrist was still playing a LOT, in the box, matching up against the TE and vs the run. Our nickle DB may be a pure CB some times, but I doubt it will be the majority of the time. Look for Wilson and/or Mager to get the majority of snaps, at least until they get hurt.

[Ebenezer]

Why do we care who starts?

I care about the players who will have an impact, not the guys who get introduced before the game. You have to play in order to have an impact. Not that role players can't have an impact, but the guys with the biggest impact typically are the guys who play.

According to that ESPN article a few days ago, 70% of our snaps are in our nickle/dime, so those are the sets that matter. If our base D is missing a piece here or there, who cares. It won't really be on the field that much. And even if the other team gets a mismatch of their FB on our SILB, how much are they going to exploit it?

As far as Reyes, go ahead and take him out of the base D. 2nd half of the year they did for the most part. The important part is who will be lining up at DT in the rush line. I would rather see us put the best DT in that spot so that we can get more pressure on the QB.

How many impact plays are going to come from a 34 DE pressuring the QB on 1st and 10? When teams line up base personnel, they will throw off a 3, or quick 5 step drop, or will run. Our opportunity to make plays there are just too limited. But against 11 personnel, with the other team spread out, the chances to slip through the OL blocks are great, and the chances to get pressure are better. Be it sack, deflected pass, or even just tackles behind the line, the DL is in a position to impact the game in a way that makes a difference. So, put the best players in those impact positions. If Reyes is the best DE, he should line up on the pass rush line. Let the scrubs play in the base D. If Reyes is one of the scrubs, then go ahead and start him.

Again, we ask a little different role of our nickle DB, so I think you are dead wrong about Robinson. I don't think he can handle the run support aspects of being our nickle DB. We don't use the typical little quicker guy inside. If the nickle was just a pass D, then you might be right, but play our nickle so much on early downs, and against 3 WR teams who like to run, so run support is a key part of being a nickle DB, in our D. Again, you seem to focus mostly on Gilchrist as a starting S, but he rarely played that spot. Most of the time, he was playing up in the box, as the nickle DB. So the starting nickle back is really probably going to go to Mager or Wilson. In our D, it's more of a hyrbid LB. Robinson may play the dime DB, but that is not the starter spot.

Robinson is making about $2 mill. 53 players into a cap space of $143 million, gives him less than the average salary by almost $1 million. So, by definition, he is making less than average. Considering it is also such a key position, it is hard to see how anyone could justify a vet player making less than average salary as making starters money.

Well, I care who starts at NT because that player will have about 300-400 snaps to make an impact. Whoever it is, they're not going to be introduced and then sit on the bench the entire game. I get that we're in sub more than anything else. That's nothing new. But we still use base defense on occasion, and most often on early downs. So the play of the DL at end and nose will have an impact on down and distance, and thereby the effectiveness of any subsequent sub packages. It would be nice to have something other than "scrubs" in that role. Allowing 4.5 yards per attempt in the running game had a direct impact on our ability to get pressure on opposing QB's.

Nickel and slot are not synonymous when its comes to cornerback. Both Verrett and Flowers can and do play in the slot. If Robinson really isn't cut out to play inside (which I think you're overstating, but for the sake of argument...), he can play outside while still being the 3rd, or nickel, cornerback. But I am definitely projecting that the veteran who played very well as a 3rd corner in 2014 will have an edge over the 3rd round rookie out of Texas State. At least initially. Jimmy Wilson could be a different story if they want to use him as a 3rd corner. And I don't recall ever bringing up his salary.

[Boltjolt]

Why is it exaggerated? If anything I would say it is conservative. We play Oakland and KC, two of the worst WR teams in football. They play as little 3 WR stuff as any teams you are likely to face. Sea didn't play as much as a lot of teams. That was 5 games right there were we played nickle because we wanted a matchup advantage from having a DB who can play some run.

It is what it is. And I doubt that most other teams are any different. The few teams who mention the numbers are right up there in the upper 60's, and some of them are VERY THIN in the secondary, like Washington, yet they still play their nickle and dime that much. Sure, they may not play Denver, but there are a ton of teams who play a lot of 3 WR sets (Washington playing Philly and Dallas). Are other teams going to stop playing 3 WR as much?

Teams have been playing 60-70% of their snaps in the nickle and dime for the last 30 years (since the mid 80's). This is not a new thing, only a lot of fans finally have taken notice of it. NFL teams throw close to 60% of their downs, and a lot of their runs come from personnel groups that force us to matchup. They do that intentionally.

Robinson was brought in for depth and to be another CB, where we are extremely thin. His contract screams it. If you pay vet minimum, you get a vet minimum player, but that doesn't mean that even if he is getting vet backup money that he isn't still a backup.

IF we play anyone in the nickle spot besides Mager, it will be Wilson, who is a hybrid S/CB type. He is replacing a hybrid S/CB in Gilchrist. And they have brought in Mager, a hybrid S/CB, to ultimately play the spot.

I don't disagree that on 3rd and long, we may sub out the regular nickle DB and bring in a pure CB. We did that a lot last year when we had 3 CB healthy. But Verrett and Wright didn't play nickle DB except on more obvious passing downs, and Gilchrist was still playing a LOT, in the box, matching up against the TE and vs the run. Our nickle DB may be a pure CB some times, but I doubt it will be the majority of the time. Look for Wilson and/or Mager to get the majority of snaps, at least until they get hurt.

You are putting a lot of faith in Mager which i dont have much in his rookie season. Like i said, Peyton will throw at him all day when he sees him in there. I think Magers biggest asset right now is his tackling and run support, not coverage. i think right now that will be his weak point.

[Stinky Wizzleteats+]

Have him rush Manning and thump him, gotta make sure he won't break like Butler..

[Steve]

Well, I care who starts at NT because that player will have about 300-400 snaps to make an impact. Whoever it is, they're not going to be introduced and then sit on the bench the entire game. I get that we're in sub more than anything else. That's nothing new. But we still use base defense on occasion, and most often on early downs. So the play of the DL at end and nose will have an impact on down and distance, and thereby the effectiveness of any subsequent sub packages. It would be nice to have something other than "scrubs" in that role. Allowing 4.5 yards per attempt in the running game had a direct impact on our ability to get pressure on opposing QB's.

Nickel and slot are not synonymous when its comes to cornerback. Both Verrett and Flowers can and do play in the slot. If Robinson really isn't cut out to play inside (which I think you're overstating, but for the sake of argument...), he can play outside while still being the 3rd, or nickel, cornerback. But I am definitely projecting that the veteran who played very well as a 3rd corner in 2014 will have an edge over the 3rd round rookie out of Texas State. At least initially. Jimmy Wilson could be a different story if they want to use him as a 3rd corner. And I don't recall ever bringing up his salary.

You can buy the bullshit about the 4.5 yards per carry hurting our pressure if you want, but you are mathematically incorrect. You are assuming that the yards per carry is what on average but not having healthy OLB who can rush the passer is what killed our pass rush. You are assuming that on average we allow 4.5 yards every time teams run against us. That is dead wrong. We allow closer to 3 yards per carry on the vast majority of our runs, and then on a token few runs, we give up a whole lot more.

We allowed 4.5 yards per carry because we allowed a few really long runs. None of those runs had anything to do with who was playing NT. Keapernick had 2 really long runs on passing plays that went over the DE on the left side, Gore had a long run (over LDE), and then there was the blown call on the Percy Harvin 51 yard pitchout (where he went out of bounds). Take out the few long runs caused by blown assignments, we are already back in the top half of the run defenses in football. Those alone get us down to about 4.0 yards per carry. Take out a couple more, we are right around the top 10. The issue isn't the NT. They aren't allowing the long runs. And the rest of the time, they are playing adequately.

If we want our run D to be better, we need to be like Seattle and just don't allow a lot of long runs. Don't blow assignments and make the other team beat us man on man. Teams don't beat us that way. We let them have those yards, and not our scrubs but our 1st and 2nd round picks (Liuget and Reyes). I think Unrein is probably going to be a big improvement for our DL because we can allow him to play on run downs and get Liuget and Reyes off the field when they screw up the most.

You guys can think what you want, but we do not play our nickle back like a CB except on obvious passing downs. Our nickle DB is playing more like a LB then he is a CB. You guys keep assuming that Robinson is going to line up in the slot, on whatever slot WR is out there, and that is not the case. When did we ever use Gilchrist like that? Did you just not pay attention? The DB will line up walking out, or splitting the difference between the WR and the end of the line, just like LB used to do to split out TE and RB.

Robinson has the potential to play pretty well out in the slot, on a slot WR, but that is not what he did last year. He missed 3 games (he played 1 snap vs Minn, so that doesn't count as playing), and he played outside the majority of the time in 7 of the 13, and split time between the slot and outside in the other 6. For a former 1st round draft pick (2010), the guy biggest claims to fame are that he missed the 2013 season, and he returned a tipped ball 99 yards to basically end Mike Vick's career. He is not very physical and is not a very good tackler, which is the biggest reason I can't see him being our nickle DB. If you look at Robinson's salary, and compare it to other backup CB, especially guys who are former higher round draft picks he is getting paid about what they are. He wasn't brought in to be the missing link to our D, he was brought in to be depth at CB, which is not what our nickle DB does.

Our nickle DB is more of a SS type then a CB. He doesn't get asked to go into the slot and cover that much which is why Gilchrist didn't get exposed that much except on obvious passing downs. The big thing is that our nickle DB needs to run and cover better then a LB, because that is really what we are doing. We are playing a DB as a LB.

You guys can say that Manning will throw at him all day, but didn't he do that to Gilchrist? And how did that work out? I seem to remember that Pagano always plays Manning pretty tough, so maybe the playing the nickle DB like a LB thing has some merit. it's not like we are going to start doing it, we have been doing it for the last several years.

[blueman]

Trust in Steve.

[Mister Hoarse]

Robinson is now my favorite player. Glad he is a Bolt.

[Ebenezer]

You can buy the bullshit about the 4.5 yards per carry hurting our pressure if you want, but you are mathematically incorrect. You are assuming that the yards per carry is what on average but not having healthy OLB who can rush the passer is what killed our pass rush. You are assuming that on average we allow 4.5 yards every time teams run against us. That is dead wrong. We allow closer to 3 yards per carry on the vast majority of our runs, and then on a token few runs, we give up a whole lot more.

We allowed 4.5 yards per carry because we allowed a few really long runs. None of those runs had anything to do with who was playing NT. Keapernick had 2 really long runs on passing plays that went over the DE on the left side, Gore had a long run (over LDE), and then there was the blown call on the Percy Harvin 51 yard pitchout (where he went out of bounds). Take out the few long runs caused by blown assignments, we are already back in the top half of the run defenses in football. Those alone get us down to about 4.0 yards per carry. Take out a couple more, we are right around the top 10. The issue isn't the NT. They aren't allowing the long runs. And the rest of the time, they are playing adequately.

If we want our run D to be better, we need to be like Seattle and just don't allow a lot of long runs. Don't blow assignments and make the other team beat us man on man. Teams don't beat us that way. We let them have those yards, and not our scrubs but our 1st and 2nd round picks (Liuget and Reyes). I think Unrein is probably going to be a big improvement for our DL because we can allow him to play on run downs and get Liuget and Reyes off the field when they screw up the most.

You guys can think what you want, but we do not play our nickle back like a CB except on obvious passing downs. Our nickle DB is playing more like a LB then he is a CB. You guys keep assuming that Robinson is going to line up in the slot, on whatever slot WR is out there, and that is not the case. When did we ever use Gilchrist like that? Did you just not pay attention? The DB will line up walking out, or splitting the difference between the WR and the end of the line, just like LB used to do to split out TE and RB.

Robinson has the potential to play pretty well out in the slot, on a slot WR, but that is not what he did last year. He missed 3 games (he played 1 snap vs Minn, so that doesn't count as playing), and he played outside the majority of the time in 7 of the 13, and split time between the slot and outside in the other 6. For a former 1st round draft pick (2010), the guy biggest claims to fame are that he missed the 2013 season, and he returned a tipped ball 99 yards to basically end Mike Vick's career. He is not very physical and is not a very good tackler, which is the biggest reason I can't see him being our nickle DB. If you look at Robinson's salary, and compare it to other backup CB, especially guys who are former higher round draft picks he is getting paid about what they are. He wasn't brought in to be the missing link to our D, he was brought in to be depth at CB, which is not what our nickle DB does.

Our nickle DB is more of a SS type then a CB. He doesn't get asked to go into the slot and cover that much which is why Gilchrist didn't get exposed that much except on obvious passing downs. The big thing is that our nickle DB needs to run and cover better then a LB, because that is really what we are doing. We are playing a DB as a LB.

You guys can say that Manning will throw at him all day, but didn't he do that to Gilchrist? And how did that work out? I seem to remember that Pagano always plays Manning pretty tough, so maybe the playing the nickle DB like a LB thing has some merit. it's not like we are going to start doing it, we have been doing it for the last several years.

My bad man. Didn't realize I'd ruffle feathers by suggesting who I thought should start at NT in the base set and that I think Robinson has a good chance to play as our 3rd cornerback. And then I just made matters worse by posting that silly bullshit about how 4.5 YPC allowed is a bad stat (because obviously it's not!) and how down and distance can have an effect on pass rush. I don't know what came over me. But thank you for letting me know what I may think and say. That definitely helps.

By the way-- since you asked:

39/55 (71%), 519 yards, 9.4 YPA, 4 TD, 0 INT

That's how it worked out when Manning played the Chargers in 2014.

[Boltjolt]

You can buy the bullshit about the 4.5 yards per carry hurting our pressure if you want, but you are mathematically incorrect. You are assuming that the yards per carry is what on average but not having healthy OLB who can rush the passer is what killed our pass rush. You are assuming that on average we allow 4.5 yards every time teams run against us. That is dead wrong. We allow closer to 3 yards per carry on the vast majority of our runs, and then on a token few runs, we give up a whole lot more. We allowed 4.5 yards per carry because we allowed a few really long runs.

Your right. Sometimes it was higher than 4.5.
So you say the majority of the time it is 3 YPC? We were 26th in rushing defense and tied for 4th to last in in YPC against being only better than the Giants, Chiefs and Saints. How the hell are you coming to those conclusions? That doesnt equal only being 3 YPC "most of the time" . We gave up 12 , 20+ runs(T-24th) and 3, 40+( T-21st).

None of those runs had anything to do with who was playing NT. Keapernick had 2 really long runs on passing plays that went over the DE on the left side, Gore had a long run (over LDE), and then there was the blown call on the Percy Harvin 51 yard pitchout (where he went out of bounds). Take out the few long runs caused by blown assignments, we are already back in the top half of the run defenses in football. Those alone get us down to about 4.0 yards per carry. Take out a couple more, we are right around the top 10. The issue isn't the NT. They aren't allowing the long runs. And the rest of the time, they are playing adequately.

Yeah, im sure other teams fans are saying the same thing. It is what it is. Its like saying if our pass rush wasnt so bad, it would probably be good.

If we want our run D to be better, we need to be like Seattle and just don't allow a lot of long runs.

Seattle allowed 7, 20+ runs. Their run defense was just more consistant all around.

Robinson has the potential to play pretty well out in the slot, on a slot WR, but that is not what he did last year. He missed 3 games (he played 1 snap vs Minn, so that doesn't count as playing), and he played outside the majority of the time in 7 of the 13, and split time between the slot and outside in the other 6. For a former 1st round draft pick (2010), the guy biggest claims to fame are that he missed the 2013 season, and he returned a tipped ball 99 yards to basically end Mike Vick's career. He is not very physical and is not a very good tackler, which is the biggest reason I can't see him being our nickle DB. If you look at Robinson's salary, and compare it to other backup CB, especially guys who are former higher round draft picks he is getting paid about what they are. He wasn't brought in to be the missing link to our D, he was brought in to be depth at CB, which is not what our nickle DB does.

We'll see. Nobody is calling Robinson a starter but he is at this stage a much better NFL player than Mager. Robinson can play in this league. Mager has yet to play a snap in it and is said to be very raw. Ill hope for the best and im just saying he has a long ways to go.

You guys can say that Manning will throw at him all day, but didn't he do that to Gilchrist? And how did that work out? I seem to remember that Pagano always plays Manning pretty tough, so maybe the playing the nickle DB like a LB thing has some merit. it's not like we are going to start doing it, we have been doing it for the last several years.

Peyton is no dummy and he played his best that he ever has against us last year. The only thing we did to him was Butler bumped into his thigh and bruised it. Since he has been a Bronco we are 1-4 against him.

[Panamamike]

I'll go out on a limb and say that every damn player on the 53 will be important. Arguing about who will be the "starting CB" is entertaining and all, but this will all sort out in TC, that's why they have them after all Maybe Mager plays beyond his experience early and locks it down....or Wilson, or Robinson, or even Williams steps up and solidifies the position. Maybe an adjustment period is required and one of the vets takes the job and Mager works himself into the rotation as the season goes along. Injuries happen, and they will all be important at some point . Professing to have a crystal ball to definitively say who plays where is BS....I'd argue that even the position coaches have an idea, but "don't know" for sure given that most of the players being talked about (for NB) have never played one snap in our system.

[Steve]

Your right. Sometimes it was higher than 4.5.
So you say the majority of the time it is 3 YPC? We were 26th in rushing defense and tied for 4th to last in in YPC against being only better than the Giants, Chiefs and Saints. How the hell are you coming to those conclusions? That doesnt equal only being 3 YPC "most of the time" . We gave up 12 , 20+ runs(T-24th) and 3, 40+( T-21st).



Yeah, im sure other teams fans are saying the same thing. It is what it is. Its like saying if our pass rush wasnt so bad, it would probably be good.


Seattle allowed 7, 20+ runs. Their run defense was just more consistant all around.





We'll see. Nobody is calling Robinson a starter but he is at this stage a much better NFL player than Mager. Robinson can play in this league. Mager has yet to play a snap in it and is said to be very raw. Ill hope for the best and im just saying he has a long ways to go.



Peyton is no dummy and he played his best that he ever has against us last year. The only thing we did to him was Butler bumped into his thigh and bruised it. Since he has been a Bronco we are 1-4 against him.

It is close to 3 yards because when you go through and see how many yards each rush actually is, that is the what it "usually" is. The most likely distance is about 3 yards. Those few longer rushes skews the distribution. The same it true of just about every NFL team.

The point isn't that NT is completely unimportant. The point is that it is far more about our DE being the problem, yet somehow no one ever talks about getting rid of them. You want our run D to be good, get rid of the problem and stop talking about a position that is being played reasonably well. If the goal is to be a better football team, maybe getting rid of the problems. But because those guys make a few plays over the coarse of the season that make the highlight reels, they seem to feel they are good players players, when in fact they allow more plays then they make by a wide margin. In place of that, the other thing is to get Liuget and Reyes off the field on more obvious run situations and have them focus more on pass rushing, so you swing the balance of good plays to bad back some. I would rather we just get rid of them, but that clearly isn't going to happen.

I don't get the fixation on who is the starter. starter is a label that used to be important for players back in the 1960's, when teams had 40 player rosters and the backups never got to play. Now, it is just the guys who get introduced on Sunday. The key players are the guys on the FIELD. and by that standard, whoever is our nickle DB is our 11th starter on D. Robinson can play in the league, just not very well. He is sort of a marginal, slightly better then Richard Marshall type. If he was really any good, why is he in his second contract making backup money? And if you dust off his stats, they are not very impressive for a guy who has played as many snaps as he has. He can cover, but the rest of his game is fairly weak. He adds depth at CB, but that is about it. I really don't see him being a nickle DB for us. But everyone seems to think we are going to change our D, so maybe that is the wrong way to think about it.

Everyone else is drawing conclusions about Perryman and Gordon, and them having big impacts. Both are higher picks, but both of them have some issues that need to be addressed before them become more well rounded players. Yet, everyone is assuming that at least Gordon will jump into the starting spot immediately. I don't see it. He will certainly play, and probably a fair amount, but more as a designated runner, and I think unless we jump out of a couple of big leads, Oliver will get somewhat more playing time early on. But Mager, who has played well, and has a lot of starting experience in a D that plays him like we often play our CB (lots of man off coverage, with some press), vs a lot of passing teams.

Go look at the past few years drafts, and look at the DB who play significantly as rookies. They tend to be from passing conferences, and even middle round picks will come in and play a lot in teams nickle packages. Weddle started at the nickle DB spot as a rookie. This was a deeper draft and it is a position that is similar to what Mager has played. He is fairly technically sound (that is huge). but mostly his skills translate perfectly to what we want him to do as the nickel DB. If we wanted him to play CB, you would have a point. He is not ready to start at CB. But inside, in our D, it is mostly about him getting up to speed in the NFL, and you have no idea who is going to do that. Maybe Mager won't, but the same is true of Gordon and Perryman, and the rest of the rookie class.

So the 3 games against Denver where we held the top scoring offense in NFL history to it's 3 lowest point totals means nothing? We have not always stopped him cold, but the fact is compared to everyone else, Pagano has probably the best track record of any DC, and that is pretty good considering we don't have an edge rush consistently. Again, go back and watch the games and then then show me where the nickle DB is getting exploited. It is just not happening. Which is more than you can say about some of the other players we have out, supposed "starters".

[Panamamike]

It is close to 3 yards because when you go through and see how many yards each rush actually is, that is the what it "usually" is. The most likely distance is about 3 yards. Those few longer rushes skews the distribution. The same it true of just about every NFL team.

The point isn't that NT is completely unimportant. The point is that it is far more about our DE being the problem, yet somehow no one ever talks about getting rid of them. You want our run D to be good, get rid of the problem and stop talking about a position that is being played reasonably well. If the goal is to be a better football team, maybe getting rid of the problems. But because those guys make a few plays over the coarse of the season that make the highlight reels, they seem to feel they are good players players, when in fact they allow more plays then they make by a wide margin. In place of that, the other thing is to get Liuget and Reyes off the field on more obvious run situations and have them focus more on pass rushing, so you swing the balance of good plays to bad back some. I would rather we just get rid of them, but that clearly isn't going to happen.

I don't get the fixation on who is the starter. starter is a label that used to be important for players back in the 1960's, when teams had 40 player rosters and the backups never got to play. Now, it is just the guys who get introduced on Sunday. The key players are the guys on the FIELD. and by that standard, whoever is our nickle DB is our 11th starter on D. Robinson can play in the league, just not very well. He is sort of a marginal, slightly better then Richard Marshall type. If he was really any good, why is he in his second contract making backup money? And if you dust off his stats, they are not very impressive for a guy who has played as many snaps as he has. He can cover, but the rest of his game is fairly weak. He adds depth at CB, but that is about it. I really don't see him being a nickle DB for us. But everyone seems to think we are going to change our D, so maybe that is the wrong way to think about it.

Everyone else is drawing conclusions about Perryman and Gordon, and them having big impacts. Both are higher picks, but both of them have some issues that need to be addressed before them become more well rounded players. Yet, everyone is assuming that at least Gordon will jump into the starting spot immediately. I don't see it. He will certainly play, and probably a fair amount, but more as a designated runner, and I think unless we jump out of a couple of big leads, Oliver will get somewhat more playing time early on. But Mager, who has played well, and has a lot of starting experience in a D that plays him like we often play our CB (lots of man off coverage, with some press), vs a lot of passing teams.

Go look at the past few years drafts, and look at the DB who play significantly as rookies. They tend to be from passing conferences, and even middle round picks will come in and play a lot in teams nickle packages. Weddle started at the nickle DB spot as a rookie. This was a deeper draft and it is a position that is similar to what Mager has played. He is fairly technically sound (that is huge). but mostly his skills translate perfectly to what we want him to do as the nickel DB. If we wanted him to play CB, you would have a point. He is not ready to start at CB. But inside, in our D, it is mostly about him getting up to speed in the NFL, and you have no idea who is going to do that. Maybe Mager won't, but the same is true of Gordon and Perryman, and the rest of the rookie class.

So the 3 games against Denver where we held the top scoring offense in NFL history to it's 3 lowest point totals means nothing? We have not always stopped him cold, but the fact is compared to everyone else, Pagano has probably the best track record of any DC, and that is pretty good considering we don't have an edge rush consistently. Again, go back and watch the games and then then show me where the nickle DB is getting exploited. It is just not happening. Which is more than you can say about some of the other players we have out, supposed "starters".

Steve, I think you argued for far too long with YUBA. You are starting to repeat yourself in every long post. I get your point, and agree with some of your opinion, but some of us disagree as to the impact of Gordon vs Mager. Time will tell as to who makes a bigger impact....personally I want them both to exceed expectations. I think you are wrong on Gordon's impact, based in large part on this: what exactly are the areas Gordon needs to "really work on" that you mentioned above that Oliver excels at? Given that Gordon has yet to play in our system, nor been given time to absorb the playbook, this is all conjecture at this point. Time will tell. In addition, I don't think anyone here has blinders on as far as our DE play. It has been poor especially vs the run. Now, this is definitely a make or break year for both our DE going forward. I did not see a whole lot of options as far as replacing them this off season. Maybe you did. I don't think the Chargers are ignorant as to the play of their DE, however I do think that they feel the DL group can play better as a whole, and have given them this season to prove it. IMO this is due to a lack of alternatives and this being the end of their rookie deals. We have fixed a lot of weak areas on the roster, over the past two years and not everything can be addressed at one time as you well know. I have been championing DE for the past two drafts, so as far as needing improvement in that area I am totally in favor.