Giants @ Chargers Pregame Discussion (wk 14)

[captaind]

The issue is that while Palmer has decent abilities, he has no elite abilities. He is not slow for a WR, but not fast either. He is below average in his vertical leap. He is not tall and he is not large. He is not great at consistently gaining separation.

Jackson actually ran his time at the combine versus a pro day time (pro day times are almost always faster for players), was much larger, more physical, and had a much better vertical leap. Jackson could get deep effectively, could use his body effectively as a possession receiver, and was a good catch and run receiver.

I would argue that if you made vertical box columns of "elite", "acceptable" and "poor", Palmer would not check off a single box in the elite column over the various WR traits. To me, more than anything else, this is what gives Palmer JAG status and makes him a reserve caliber WR.

By contrast, a player that has some "poor" traits can still be a very valuable player if he also has some elite traits. Keenan Allen is a perfect example of this. He has elite get off and explosive quick cutting ability to get open right away even though he is essentially as slow as molasses for a WR.

:deadhorse::deadhorse::deadhorse::deadhorse::deadhorse::deadh orse::deadhorse::deadhorse::deadhorse::deadhorse:: deadhorse:

[ghost]

:deadhorse::

Nobody knows if Josh Palmer is the next Keenan Allen or not, despite the general notion of that post, that Josh is the next Vincent Brown.

Prototypical height-weight and look at the body control. He looked like a silky smooth mother****** on Sunday and he's shown a little more each and every week. Let Palmer work the right side of the endzone on Sunday against the Chiefs 3rd corner, and Josh Palmer will have a breakout game.

[richpjr]

At some point, ya just gotta agree to disagree.

[Velo]

Nobody knows if Josh Palmer is the next Keenan Allen or not, despite the general notion of that post, that Josh is the next Vincent Brown.

Prototypical height-weight and look at the body control. He looked like a silky smooth mother****** on Sunday and he's shown a little more each and every week. Let Palmer work the right side of the endzone on Sunday against the Chiefs 3rd corner, and Josh Palmer will have a breakout game.

Josh Palmer is the next DeAndre Hopkins.

[Velo]

At some point, ya just gotta agree to disagree.

The contrary dude just argues to argue, to be contrary, I don't think he really believes the stuff he writes, he just enjoys arguing with others, it seems to fuel his entire existence.

[Heatmiser]

Every board has such folks. They spice things up and make it fun. If you don't like it, remember wolves only grow if you feed them.

TG

[powderblueboy]

Nobody knows if Josh Palmer is the next Keenan Allen or not, despite the general notion of that post, that Josh is the next Vincent Brown.

Prototypical height-weight and look at the body control. He looked like a silky smooth mother****** on Sunday and he's shown a little more each and every week. Let Palmer work the right side of the endzone on Sunday against the Chiefs 3rd corner, and Josh Palmer will have a breakout game.

Quarterback at Tennessee doesn't get it to him on time.
He's open, then has to wait and looks covered...those balls should be arriving earlier.

Still has the hands, strength and body control to high point it. Very few receivers consistently do that.
Some receivers are body catchers and never attack the football in mid air: Palmer is strictly a hands catcher.

[powderblueboy]

The issue is that while Palmer has decent abilities, he has no elite abilities. He is not slow for a WR, but not fast either. He is below average in his vertical leap. He is not tall and he is not large. He is not great at consistently gaining separation.

Jackson actually ran his time at the combine versus a pro day time (pro day times are almost always faster for players), was much larger, more physical, and had a much better vertical leap. Jackson could get deep effectively, could use his body effectively as a possession receiver, and was a good catch and run receiver.

I would argue that if you made vertical box columns of "elite", "acceptable" and "poor", Palmer would not check off a single box in the elite column over the various WR traits. To me, more than anything else, this is what gives Palmer JAG status and makes him a reserve caliber WR.

By contrast, a player that has some "poor" traits can still be a very valuable player if he also has some elite traits. Keenan Allen is a perfect example of this. He has elite get off and explosive quick cutting ability to get open right away even though he is essentially as slow as molasses for a WR.

We agree again.
Palmer is not alone - Guyton also didn't attend the combine. He ran his 40 time at the UNT pro day.

His pro day average 4.39 speed roughly translates to a 4.45 combine speed: still good, but no where close to elite receiver speed.
His ability to take the top off a defense is greatly overblown by some here.

[powderblueboy]

Here is a good argument on the benefit of speed at wide receiver:

"CONTROLLED speed is the key -- can you be a burner and still have balance?

Wes Welker is a 4.65-4.7 guy, but he's a Pro Bowler because he's fast, and can play and make multi-directional cuts at top speed. Lots of 4.4-4.5 guys have to break down their strides, or come out of route breaks slowly without separation.

Watch tape of Jerry Rice. His breaks are flawless -- his change of direction is always with perfect pad level, outstanding balance, maximum separation and a surreal understanding of how to "get open" against whatever coverage the defense is playing.

Randy Moss was taller and faster than Rice, could jump much higher, and was a much better raw athlete. Had he focused on route running, conditioning, endurance, film study, etc. like Rice did throughout his career, Moss would have been the best WR ever. Instead, he's only the second-best (to Rice) of the modern era (Don Hutson fans from the 1930s and 1940s might even argue that point a bit, too). Moss was AMAZING; he just wasn't Jerry Rice"

[powderblueboy]

Steve Largent was a guy who wasn't fast; but he didn't slow down while cutting, he almost seemed to be speeding up.

Just focusing on straight line speed is ludicrous in evaluating receivers.

More great receivers run 4.6 + 40s, than those that run 4.35 minus

[21&500]

Here is a good argument on the benefit of speed at wide receiver:

"CONTROLLED speed is the key -- can you be a burner and still have balance?

Wes Welker is a 4.65-4.7 guy, but he's a Pro Bowler because he's fast, and can play and make multi-directional cuts at top speed. Lots of 4.4-4.5 guys have to break down their strides, or come out of route breaks slowly without separation.

Watch tape of Jerry Rice. His breaks are flawless -- his change of direction is always with perfect pad level, outstanding balance, maximum separation and a surreal understanding of how to "get open" against whatever coverage the defense is playing.

Randy Moss was taller and faster than Rice, could jump much higher, and was a much better raw athlete. Had he focused on route running, conditioning, endurance, film study, etc. like Rice did throughout his career, Moss would have been the best WR ever. Instead, he's only the second-best (to Rice) of the modern era (Don Hutson fans from the 1930s and 1940s might even argue that point a bit, too). Moss was AMAZING; he just wasn't Jerry Rice"

If Herbert is my QB, I take a prime Moss over a prime Rice all day.

[BlazingBolt]

If Herbert is my QB, I take a prime Moss over a prime Rice all day.

Pretty sure Moss never won a Super Bowl and Rice even got a game MVP I believe.

I loved Moss as a Viking but his Raider years alone would make me take Rice if I had to choose one.

Moss might put up better explosive plays but Rice would be more consistent and contribute more to winning time.