Blow up the roster vs tweak the roster

[QSmokey]

I guess we all have our own definitions of "blowing up" and "tweaking". Tweaking, to me, means you maybe have a 15-20% roster turnover (roughly 10-12 players). If you accept my definition of the term, then I see NO WAY we merely tweak the roster next season.

IMO, we're looking at a 45-50% roster turnover (25 players, at least), if not more. That includes guys who will be cut, guys who will walk in FA, rookie and UFA replacement for the garbage we have on the field right now. I don't know about the rest of you, but I'd be hard pressed to come away with 30 keep-able players off our current roster (and that includes the guys on IR). Even the list Panama threw out there - including the abysmal Cox - only totals 21 players (I would jettison Cox and add Steve Williams, Stuckey, and Taylor to that list...but even those changes would bring the total to only 23).

I don't think you can tinker/tweak/retool (hate that word) when you have to replace half your roster. That's a 'blow up' in my estimation.

[Panama]

Gates' age and the lack of size at WR.

I really hope Gates retires a Charger, the way LT and Junior and Rodney should have. There's absolutely nothing wrong with having two extremely gifted TEs on the roster.

I'm working on the assumption that we'll be retaining Alexander, Floyd, and maybe even Ajirotutu, all of whom have plenty of size for a WR.

[OhioBolt]

(1) I continue to maintain we have not pissed away this season. On the contrary, this season has been extremely useful. This was never going to be a playoff team, despite some of the fantasy scenarios being bandied about whenever we won a game. This season we have answered some important questions about our personnel (e.g., English) and given young players valuable developmental experience. Rather than try to keep from sinking by plugging in holes with aging vets (AJ's approach the previous two seasons), we blew apart the defense in order to set the foundations for a stronger defense in years to come. We're experiencing the growing pains of that right now, but there are many encouraging signs to indicate that this could pay dividends in the near future.

(2) The media, as always, and a lot of fans are engaging in hyperbole. I have seen worse tackling performances from the Chargers, and I remember worse secondaries, although both have been pretty bad.

(3) To answer your question, I think TT already did his blowup this past season. He recognised that you have to tear down to build up properly. He's done the tearing down and the process of building up has begun but is a slow process.

I imagine there will be some slight tinkering on the offense, the usual season-to-season thing, nothing major -- except maybe adding a LT if Dunlap's long-term health is a concern and/or one falls into our laps in the draft.

On the defense, I think TT's priority will be to upgrade the front 7, both adding quality OLBs and DT and upgrading the general depth. As for the secondary: This will surprise/disappoint a lot of you, but I wouldn't be surprised if he stuck with Cox. An improved pass rush covers up a lot of deficiencies in the secondary, and Cox has the tools. It's all in his head. That said, I'd rather see Patrick starting over Cox, or maybe they give Williams or another draft pick a shot. And at safety, I think the team will stay pat if they feel confident about Taylor/Addae or look for someone in the draft. (Actually, they'll probably take a S late in the draft anyway.) But it should all be tinkering and retooling.

On defense, I do believe Ingram, Liuget, Reyes, Butler, Te'o, Weddle, and Wright will be solid as starters at their respective positions. And offense is even stronger, as I believe Rivers, Mathews, Dunlap, Troutman/Rinehart, Hardwick, Clary, Fluker, Gates, and whichever three emerge from Alexander/Allen/Brown (at a different WR position)/Floyd/Royal will be fine at their respective starting positions plus Woodhead and Green. Thus, there's no need to blow things up. That's a solid core. We just need to tinker and retool to upgrade a few positions and improve overall depth.

And as long as Rivers is our QB, this should remain our approach. I don't believe a team should ever completely blow it up and start over when they have a top-flight QB.

I agree offense needs tweeked, the O-line is the only thing that is questionable, the inconsistency in performance is directly realated to injuries no cohesiveness to many changes. That being said if we can draft a quality LT, and another guard to develop we'll be okay. Fluker and Troutman are mainstay, I think Troutman will be improve as he cuts down his mental errors. Dunlap health is the only think in question, we can get another year out of Hardwick and the other starting lineman we are okay. QB check, RB check despite what people think of Matthew, WR check with return of Floyd, a bonus would be to find that quick\speed WR who could also return punts. TE check and Green is the wings, should Gates play decline 2014. So Offense just need tweeked and get OL in place for the future.

Defense oh boy, I think that maybe we actually have to blow it up alot is depended on Reyes and Liuget. NT got to find one. LBs is so up in the air Teo will be back for sure, Butler not sure, Ingram just don't know what kind of player actually is going to be, we know he has talent, but coming of the injury just don't know how he well perform. If Ingram comes back and is everything we though he would be great, we need another outside LB, Jarret Johnson at this point in his career is on the downside, key when players get up in there 30's is how long they take to recover from injury, and then the re-ocurring injuries, then you see they kind of lose their level of play remember Ladanian hit his 30's and he was a young 30, injury, nagging injury, decline in explosiveness. Now two secondary some may think all are replaceable except Weddle. I hold hope out for Wright I think he can develope into a solid corner, Cox on the other hand I is reminding me of Cason, good size phyiscally, decent speed, but mentally he's not there. The other safety has been problem for years is Taylor the answer I don't know. That seems to be the problem with the whole defense you just don't know about certain players, does Taylor and Ingram come back and be impact players, Does Reyes and Liuget become consistent factors.

We need at least two of 3 types of players on D and we currently have none
1. DL you need an aggressive disrupter- I don't see that on our roster
2. DE\OLB an agressive attacking, who is quick off the snap- Can Ingram be that guy
3. DB with speed

[RTPbolt]

I agree with Panama on most parts. We did the jettison already. We just didnt have cap space or enough draft picks to meet all the needs to truly restock the defense. I do think Fluker, Teo and Allen will be part of our core for a long time and will get better next year after this years experience. Our injuries this year just killed us and we didnt have a lot of defensive depth to begin with. I would focus mainly on defense this post season. I think possibly a vet LB for pass rush help to go with Ingram and Freeney (yes im in for keeping him). We need to probably take a DL early and another CB...can't have enough quality CBs especially with Denver in our division.

I honestly think its a 3 year process for how TT was looking at this. Year one was a big reset....mostly on defense and fill in what we could with youth and hungry players...see how we play with our core offense mostly intact and get experience on D with a subpar group. Year two is filling in most of the holes on D and our year 1 youth will start to mature...we should be more competitive as the year goes on IMO. Year three is really where we finally have young players with experience and we are filling more depth in where we lack today and maybe a position or two on defense as starter. Sprinkle in a couple quality vets in the mix in all 3 of those years and you have a contender.

That said it requires hitting on your draft for the most part and creating a realistic game plan our team can execute to. As we see this year injuries to our LB and OL have been very problematic. No pass rush is hurting our secondary pretty badly...we need more pure talent back there but we cant cover for 7-10 seconds and expect WR to not get open if the QB has all day. Our tackling has been poor though...not sure what's up with that...players or coaching or both.

RTPbolt

[TTK]

he was forced to keep Pagano? Where did you read that?

Just an assumption that I made. All the talk before they hired TT and McCoy was that Pagano was going to stay and that's what winding up happening.

[richpjr]

What is Pagano's contract status - I thought I read somewhere it was up after this season, but wouldn't swear by that.

[Panama]

I guess we all have our own definitions of "blowing up" and "tweaking". Tweaking, to me, means you maybe have a 15-20% roster turnover (roughly 10-12 players). If you accept my definition of the term, then I see NO WAY we merely tweak the roster next season.

IMO, we're looking at a 45-50% roster turnover (25 players, at least), if not more. That includes guys who will be cut, guys who will walk in FA, rookie and UFA replacement for the garbage we have on the field right now. I don't know about the rest of you, but I'd be hard pressed to come away with 30 keep-able players off our current roster (and that includes the guys on IR). Even the list Panama threw out there - including the abysmal Cox - only totals 21 players (I would jettison Cox and add Steve Williams, Stuckey, and Taylor to that list...but even those changes would bring the total to only 23).

I accept your challenge. Current or recent roster players I would keep for next year:

Addae, Jahleel	Hard hitter at a position that is a weakness; good special teamer (replaces Stuckey, who is too expensive for someone who is just a special teamer)
Ajirotutu, Seyi	cheap; fan favourite; good chemistry with Rivers; expendable
Alexander, Danario	will be cheap due to injury history; good chemistry with Rivers; if healthy has potential to be one of top WRs in NFL
Allen, Keenan	duh!
Brown, Vincent	has regressed since ankle injury, but still has potential and is young and cheap
Butler, Donald	when healthy an upper echelon MLB, but has to agree to a team-friendly contract
Clary, Jeromey	solid guard; versatile player with great attitude; hopefully will restructure contract to extend and make more cap-friendly
Cox, Derek	has all the physical tools, but head is not in game; have enough money invested in him that worth keeping if coaching staff thinks he's salvageable with improved pass rush; otherwise, potential cut
Dunlap, King	solid LT when healthy; cheap
Floyd, Malcom	locked up for 2 more seasons; developed as a Charger and has become our best WR; great chemistry with Rivers; it would be stupid to disrupt team chemistry and weaken WR position over small cap savings if cut
Fluker, D.J.	stud young RT
Freeney, Dwight	potential cut, but solid veteran presence (still need some of that) and can still bring the pass rush; team doesn't have the luxury not to keep a solid pass rusher already under contract
Gachkar, Andrew	nothing special, but he's signed and cheap and good on ST
Gates, Antonio	icon can still dominate a game and hopefully will retire a Charger, but not for a few years yet
Geathers, Kwame	is young and cheap and full of potential, but can be cut in TC if better options
Gilchrist, Marcus	let him play out his contract year, preferably back at nickle or dime
Green, Ladarius	young stud TE
Guy, Lawrence	just a guy; expendable if better options, but has flashed some potential and worth bringing back to TC
Hardwick, Nick	star of the OL
Harris, Mike	has developed into a solid swing tackle
Ingram, Melvin	has shown flashes of being a stud OLB
Johnson, Jarret	potential cut candidate because of his contract, but has been our most dependable OLB and still has 2 years left on contract
Keiser, Thomas	has shown some pass rush ability, could be valuable rotational depth; worth bringing back to TC but supremely cuttable, especially if T. Williams steps it up (I don't know Keiser's contract situation -- if he's a FA, let him walk)
Lissemore, Sean	TT clearly likes this kid, based on the contract, so he's not going anywhere
Liuget, Corey	star DE
Mathews, Ryan	best runner we have
Novak, Nick	if it works...
Patrick, Johnny	has proved the second best of a weak secondary; if team cuts Cox, Patrick could start; better as a starter than nickle; reasonable contract
Remmers, Mike	young and cheap
Reyes, Kendall	has taken a step back this season, but potential to be a Derek Wolfe-type DE
Rivers, Philip	franchise QB
Royal, Eddie	he's signed and can be a game-changer when healthy; might be cut candidate due to contract and other viable options on roster
Scifres, Mike	best in the business
Sorensen, Brad	goodbye CBJ
Taylor, Brandon	under contract for 2 more years and before ACL was considered to be SS of future
Te'o, Manti	duh!
Thomas, Cam	should be re-signed to provide depth at DT but not a dominant starter
Troutman, Johnnie	has shown enough to let Rinehart walk in FA
Weddle, Eric	our best defensive player!
Williams, Steve	showed a lot of promise in PS before injury and should be either nickle or dime back next season
Williams, Tourek	young and has potential; probably
Windt, Mike	don't mess with the LS!
Woodhead, Danny	not cheap, but worth every penny!
Wright, Shareece	our best CB; worth extending before he hits FA

There you go. That's 44 I would consider keeping, though a handful of them I might remove from the list depending on circumstances. It's not so dire a situation as you seem to think.

[QSmokey]

Guess I'd only alter that by 4-6 names, but that's not a comforting thought. That's one shitty roster, Amigo. Age, injury history, just plain poor performance. This is depressing. Even adding 8 rookies/FAs. They had better all be Pro-Bowlers.

[Panama]

Guess I'd only alter that by 4-6 names, but that's not a comforting thought. That's one shitty roster, Amigo. Age, injury history, just plain poor performance. This is depressing. Even adding 8 rookies/FAs. They had better all be Pro-Bowlers.

See, I think you're wrong, and here's why: People seem to have a misconception that (1) a team needs to be made up mostly of great players in order to be successful and (2) each position on a team exists in a vacuum. If that were the case, we really would be in dire straits. But it's not, and we're not.

(1) A team needs a few star players to build around at choice positions and solid role players around them. We've got a star at the most important position (Rivers) and a handful of other potential stars (Fluker, Weddle, Liuget, Ingram, maybe more). We really need a star at pass rusher, as that's a critical position. Maybe Ingram can be that, but at worst Ingram can be that solid role player.

(2) Positions do not exist in a vacuum. You can have one of the best QBs in the business (Rivers) and solid RBs (Mathews/Woodhead), but if your OL isn't very good, their performance will suffer. (This is what I found so laughably ridiculous about all the claims that Rivers needed fixing.) You can have a decent secondary, but if your pass rush is nonexistent your secondary will look like shit. I think Wright can be a very good CB for us, and in S. Williams, Patrick, maybe Cox, maybe Gilchrist, we have some passable* role players ... if we fix the pass rush. I have to think TT will make getting OLBs who can rush the passer and a DT who can collapse the pocket his top offseason priorities. We have seen this year how fixing the OL has suddenly made the offense good again. Believe me, if we make a similar improvement in the pass rush (from abominable to average or decent) our pass coverage will improve drastically and our defense won't be so bad.

This is why the extreme "we must blow everything up and start all over" positions are short-sighted and misguided, IMO. I know it looks bleak right now based on performance, but it's not nearly as bad as it looks. As long as the pass rush is addressed in the offseason and the team's depth is improved, we will have a statistical turnaround on defense next season. (Of course, our schedule is likely to be a lot more difficult next year as well, so this may not translate to wins and losses right away. I see an improvement of about 2 games next year, if TT addresses the pass rush.)


*Poor choice of words. Take "passable" to mean "acceptable," not that teams can complete passes against them, smartass!

[homeless simpson]

Just an assumption that I made. All the talk before they hired TT and McCoy was that Pagano was going to stay and that's what winding up happening.

Cohntenuahtay!

[OhioBolt]

Vincent Brown could find himself on another team in 2014

[thelightningwill]

While I agree we have had worse secondaries, this has been our worst year when it comes to tackling. At least in my lifetime