Let's talk Earl Mitchell

[Beerman]

Cutting Clary and Royal would have more than paid for Soliai. Clary is not good and is easily replaceable. Royal is solid, but replaceable through the draft. Soliai would solidify our run defense and help our pass defense out some as well in several different ways.

It doesn't matter how much cap room Atlanta has. What matters is how much they would be willing to offer given the holes that they have.

But I agree with you that it does not look like we ever seriously considered pursuing Soliai based upon the reports that you have referenced. It's a shame.

Cutting Royal and Clary just creates two more holes. Saying they are easily replaceable doesn't mean it's true, not to mention we just don't have the draft picks. That and you can't really rely on ANY rookie to come in and start right away.

To top it off you want to replace guys that can potentially play 800-900 snaps a piece for a guy that will likely only play 400 snaps at most (our NT only plays about 25-30 snaps a game).

[Beerman]

Just going back to Yuba's point of going all in on Soliai.

Say we cut Clary and Royal and are now able to sign Soliai. Ok what do we do at CB? We now have no depth at OG and are relying on Troutman to start and Rinehart to stay healthy all year (which hasn't happened to date). We now have to draft an OG relatively high if we want him to start. A CB high to start. A OLB to improve the pass rush. Two WR's unless you actually want Brown to play (I don't). We still need to acquire a backup RB or 2 somehow, backup OC, 2 backup CBs, possibly backup ILBs.

You want to do all that with 7 picks? Realistically teams get 1-2 starters from a draft. That we got 3 was the exception, not the rule. Using all our resources on Soliai (I've seen him getting about 7 mill per year) would leave us virtually nothing to acquire players that are capable of starting or providing depth. It's just not a smart use of resources IMO for a TWO down player that will play 400 snaps at most. A starting CB plays 1000 snaps in a year. O lineman play 1000 snaps. WR's can potentially play 1000 snaps if they are in 2 WR sets (which Royal was towards the end of the year).

It just never made sense for us to spend big dollars on a NT, which Soliai will likely command. Draft picks are a complete different animal. Just get the best player that won't be a bust. They are all affordable.

A better course of action is to ask for players to take pay cuts (like he has) so we aren't wasting cap space on dead money. I fully expect Clary to take a pay cut sometime this offseason. He's still going to be overpaid, but it will allow us to keep an effective O line intact. Not to mention he will be in the equation to get us comp picks next year.

[Beerman]

Yes, that's true, but my concern is that if we add Mitchell, Telesco may decide that we are set at NT and let Nix (if available), Ellis, et cetera pass us by without taking any of them.

Telesco is gonna stick to his board. Polian did it/taught him. Telesco has alluded to BPA. We also only have a UDFA behind Mitchell if in fact we do sign him. He also nailed his first draft, he's earned some credit.

[Steve]

Miami played their best D when Soliai was not on the field last year, including many of their tackles behind the line. He has his moments, but he is not the dominant player he used to be. Most of the time he stands around and leans on the OL. He can't play any run that is not right at him, and most of the time he can't collapse the pocket like he used to.

I like the idea of Mitchell. He plays the zone runs well, doesn't let the zone guys get off their double teams against him to get to the LB and he can play down the line, taking away the cutbacks. He also can get some push up the middle. The only issue I have with small NT is that they tend to get washed up pretty fast. They still have to take on a lot of double teams, and without the extra bulk, they tend to wear down faster. And once a NT starts to go, they tend to go downhill pretty quick. But Mitchell is a far more useful player, since he adds depth at DT in the rush line, and can pass rush some.

Mitchell has only been the starter for 1 year, but he played in over 40% of the Texans snaps in 2012, and over 30% the previous couple of years (including time in their 43 prior to Wade). Unlike most of the FA DL, he is just starting to reach his prime, instead of being washed up 30+ guy, or some young guy who has not shown much in his career to date. I suspect that is big part of why he got such a high grade from Polian.

[Beerman]

Not sure where you have been living, but I said our moves would make our 2013 defense worse than our 2012 defense due to lack of quality depth and key losses. I am pretty sure that that is exactly what happened.

I said that Phillips was not done and would be better than Freeney. He was better than Freeney, a lot better than Freeney. We lacked the run stopping presence that I was concerned would be lost without us having Franklin. That's exactly what happened as we went from 5th to 27th in YPC against.

Our offense turned out to be great and that and some great smoke and mirrors by Pagano somehow hid our glaring defensive weaknesses that were all over the place just enough for us to get by.

But now, a year later, could we please actually fix the defense and stop pussy footing around with the likes of Mitchell?!

You know Indy was in the bottom half of run defense too right? Your boy Franklin isn't playing alone and wasn't all that great since he's gone a year later.

[Beerman]

Miami played their best D when Soliai was not on the field last year, including many of their tackles behind the line. He has his moments, but he is not the dominant player he used to be. Most of the time he stands around and leans on the OL. He can't play any run that is not right at him, and most of the time he can't collapse the pocket like he used to.

I like the idea of Mitchell. He plays the zone runs well, doesn't let the zone guys get off their double teams against him to get to the LB and he can play down the line, taking away the cutbacks. He also can get some push up the middle. The only issue I have with small NT is that they tend to get washed up pretty fast. They still have to take on a lot of double teams, and without the extra bulk, they tend to wear down faster. And once a NT starts to go, they tend to go downhill pretty quick. But Mitchell is a far more useful player, since he adds depth at DT in the rush line, and can pass rush some.

Mitchell has only been the starter for 1 year, but he played in over 40% of the Texans snaps in 2012, and over 30% the previous couple of years (including time in their 43 prior to Wade). Unlike most of the FA DL, he is just starting to reach his prime, instead of being washed up 30+ guy, or some young guy who has not shown much in his career to date. I suspect that is big part of why he got such a high grade from Polian.

Of course and it's the template that Telesco has followed since last season. Getting younger, everywhere. We aren't 1 player away and overspending to get a NT won't help while creating multiple holes on the roster we have no other resources to fill with.

[Yubaking]

Cutting Royal and Clary just creates two more holes. Saying they are easily replaceable doesn't mean it's true, not to mention we just don't have the draft picks. That and you can't really rely on ANY rookie to come in and start right away.

To top it off you want to replace guys that can potentially play 800-900 snaps a piece for a guy that will likely only play 400 snaps at most (our NT only plays about 25-30 snaps a game).

Yes, our NTs only play 25-30 snaps per game. Good NTs play anywhere from a little more to a lot more than that. I want Soliai in there to stop the run on first and second downs so we can get to third and long with greater regularity. I understand that he is not likely to play more than about 55% of our defensive snaps, but he is well worth the price if he provides the regular run stopping presence that our team lacks. Lissemore can hold his own for most of the rest of the snaps at NT. Pass rushers can come in on third and long situations.

Royal is a slot receiver. Guys like Herron should be out there in round 4 of the draft and would give us everything that Royal gives us. I would also give Jacoby Jones a look in FA and kill two birds with one stone (replace Floyd if necessary and serve as kick returner supreme).

At OG, I am fine with Troutman starting. I think his pass protection will improve whereas Clary's run blocking will not. We just re-signed Rinehart. I would love for us to re-sign Ohrnberger or even Schwartz if the money is right. And there is the draft as well. I think a second round OG has a good chance of being better than Clary right now as it is, but am not concerned if we pass on OG in the draft until later. Clary is not good and he had injuries for the first time last year. Frequently, players are more injury prone as they age, so I don't think Clary is some kind of ironman or anything.

[thelightningwill]

Telesco is gonna stick to his board. Polian did it/taught him. Telesco has alluded to BPA. We also only have a UDFA behind Mitchell if in fact we do sign him. He also nailed his first draft, he's earned some credit.

If we sign a starting nose tackle, I still would like to keep Cam Thomas. I think he's pretty good coming off the bench. He just shouldn't be a starter - at least not yet.

[Beerman]

I disagree that ANY WR would easily come in here from the 4th round and replicate what Royal gives us. Most WR's traditionally take about 3 years to break out. Just because Allen did it (who was coached by a HOF WR on the ins and outs of being a pro WR) doesn't mean we suddenly will get productive WR's every season in later rounds. It's extremely presumptuous and naive to think that.

You address how we could replace Clary and Royal. You forgot about the 2-3 CB's we will need, backup ILB, backup OC and OG, and OLB. Oh and another 1-2 WR's to fill out the group.

[Beerman]

If we sign a starting nose tackle, I still would like to keep Cam Thomas. I think he's pretty good coming off the bench. He just shouldn't be a starter - at least not yet.

I don't see him returning unless it's on a minimum deal to compete for a backup position. I just don't see the point bringing him back at a position where we already know he has failed at repeatedly. We are already paying Lissemore to be our backup DE/NT 1 mill a year.

[thelightningwill]

I don't see him returning unless it's on a minimum deal to compete for a backup position. I just don't see the point bringing him back at a position where we already know he has failed at repeatedly. We are already paying Lissemore to be our backup DE/NT 1 mill a year.

I'd like more than one backup D lineman. Cam Thomas didn't fail as a backup - he failed as a starter. He has been a good backup in the past. Not exactly sure how many players we can afford. But I like the idea of getting as many decent players at the line of scrimmage as possible.

[Yubaking]

You know Indy was in the bottom half of run defense too right? Your boy Franklin isn't playing alone and wasn't all that great since he's gone a year later.

Oh, I think Franklin is nearing the end of his career to be sure. He will be 34 this year, which is just about all I would expect a NT to be able to manage. I think his best days are far behind him. Still, he is a better run stuffer right now at NT than anyone we currently have and would have been last year too for barely over the veteran minimum. That isn't saying that Franklin is great, but rather that outside of Lissemore, we have nobody that is strong against the run on our DL. That's why I want us to get a run stuffer--we need one--badly.

By the way, PFF had 33 year old Franklin ranked ahead of Mitchell last year. Let's assume that Franklin gives a team next to nothing in the pass rushing department and that Mitchell is better there. I think that's a safe assumption. What does that say about Mitchell's run defense if he ranks lower than Franklin overall? Whatever you think Franklin was for the Colts last year against the run, Mitchell was likely worse for the Texans. And how does that fit with our already multiple soft against the run DL players? It's a bad fit, isn't it, even if Mitchell is a decent finesse DT.