Who's in on Ndamukong Suh?

[Boltjolt]

I just don't think Lynn is a good QB evaluator. He played with Elway and sees Brady kicking our buts so why he wants a mobile QB, I don't get it. Maybe he dont really want a mobile QB or cares about it. Who knows. How many of those QBs have won SBs? Even Vick wasn't a very good QB as mobile as he was. Best mobile QB imo was Cunningham.

[like54ninjas]

I believe there is a difference between mobile and running QBs. QBs who run consistently get the shit beat out of them.

[Boltjolt]

I believe there is a difference between mobile and running QBs. QBs who run consistently get the shit beat out of them.

The running QB learns to be the mobile QB. Something Murray will need to learn and Tebow didn't but Tebow wasn't a very good passer, or Vick either. No NFL team really wants a running QB. Cam and Tebow both at around 235 + lbs were beat up.

[Steve]

It depends on what you're looking for, in this article they looked at all starters in 2014 and roughly 10% of 3rd rounders were starters.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.forbes.com/sites/prishe/2015/05/22/tracking-nfl-draft-efficiency-how-contingent-is-success-to-draft-position/amp/

Either way 3rd round picks are gambles. Rosen is also a gamble but a low risk high reward gamble. I've seen third round picks gambled away on worse.

I tend to agree with you evaluation of rivers playing 2-3 more years. He may be able to Tom Brady but I don't think he will, he has a family he loves and many reasons to stop. If we win it all next season I could see him walking away on top. He has said he wants to play in the new stadium but he's also said he was ready to retire a few years ago, when his kids and family want him to retire he will and that may be sooner rather than later.

I also don't think it's crazy do trade for Rosen and carry 3 qbs, we've done it before and Rosen would cost our team about 1.5 million this year, hardly a burden. Next year we can cut ties with tyrod and move forward.

But ill I'll admit it's h likely we trade for him, for this reason, I think Lynn wants a mobile qb, badly. He's made it clear that every backup brought in during his tenure has been a mobile scrambling qb. He tolerates rivers because rivers is damn good, but given his choice he'll bring in a different type of qb.

I don't see where in that article is says 10% of 3rd rounders are starters anywhere. It is not very well written and is not very clear what it is saying or what was done. It seems to say it is based on 1 year, while the table above is around a decade long, so that may be part of it.

But if you are saying with Rosen we should sign him, you are basically saying that we should replace Rivers with Rosen or save him as the heir apparent and give him a long term contract without ever seeing him play (minus his play last year).


As far as QB go , I tend to break down the mobile QB into 2 categories. There are guys who like/prefer to run, and there are guys who like to buy time with their legs and then sometimes run.

Guys like Vick and Tebow, and even Lamar Jackson, tend to just watch the rush and they are often just waiting for their moment to run with the ball. Tehse guys tend to struggle as passers and tend to be short term QB. The success of a QB is based on his ability to throw.

I don't think Lynn wants a mobile QB as much as he wants a QB who can throw. Every NFL coach at every position wants a guy who can throw. Then, if they have a choice, they want one who has some wheels. I don't think Lynn is any different from any other coach. The passing thing comes first. If you can get a guy who buys time, that is better.

[Steve]

The running QB learns to be the mobile QB. Something Murray will need to learn and Tebow didn't but Tebow wasn't a very good passer, or Vick either. No NFL team really wants a running QB. Cam and Tebow both at around 235 + lbs were beat up.

Some do, some don't. I always thought some guys are just looking to guy time, but others are even trying to throw. Tebow's last preseason stretch in Philly, he had a play where he was scrambling to his left, had 2 wide open receivers (one in the endzone the other at the goalline). He passed up both, and got pushed out of bounds. Clearly, once he started to scramble, even though he had lots of time, and could just extend the play, he had decided to make the play himself, even though he had 2 guys who would have scored.

Sometimes you can see the QB just sitting back and just watching the rush, waiting for his chance to break the pocket. That is what I look for. If the guy who likes to scramble, but tend to like to just run around and extend the play, they are closer to what I think is more productive. Aaron Rodgers, often uses his scrambles to break contain, and then takes him time heading upfield. He is still looking for his receivers to make a play downfield.

There is a lot to be said for a QB who can do some of that. It allows the team to call more RPO and zone read type stuff, which gives the offense more way to attack defenses. the zone read is especially important for teams that use zone running games to attack the defense trying to run plays down on the backside. But so many QB just half ass the zone reads/RPO reads. They make up their minds before they even see the D and just skip the read.

[Steve]

All I know is Rivers has said he would like to play in the new stadium. I think they try to extend him this year after the draft and all the cuts have been made which may include Benjamin.

Rivers is still playing at a high level, wand while we are strapped for cash now, there is no reason to think we can't extend him. We have something like $86 mill in cap space next season, plus we can cut Perryman, Davis and Taylor to free up another $16 million, and another $4mill with Mebane. We do have some other FA to sign, but that is a lot of money to work with, even if there are some key guys to sign (like Bosa).

A lot of QB are working very hard and keeping themselves healthier longer. I don't think there is any reason to think that Rivers won't be able to still be a quality starting QB in a few seasons.

The advantage of moving on is that we do have some other young players nearing the and of their rookie deals. Just cutting ship with Rivers and moving on to Rosen has merit, since he has several years still on his rookie deal. Is an older Rivers with less talent around him better than an ascending Rosen with more salary cap space to help him?

Philly got a lot of extra help a couple of years ago, and while they are able to keep making the salary cap thing work, Wentz is coming up on the end of his rookie deal. They will have to make some tough choices when they have to start paying him $30 mill per season, whose current cap # is ~$8.5 mill. Dallas is in the same situation, since they have the last year of Prescott's deal and now will have to work on a new deal, and they are not necessarily sold on him yet.

I am uncomfortable with the idea of going with Rosen since I think it is a mistake to just give starting jobs out. Rosen had some flashes, but has yet to show he can be a starting QB. He was the 33rd ranked QB of the top 33 QB by passer rating. http://www.espn.com/nfl/statistics/p...rterbackRating

One of the things I like about TT and Lynn is they make even FA types win starting jobs. Russell Okung wa a notable exception, but mostly if new players come in they still have to compete with other players on the roster. Watkins at FS with Jenkins, and that competition may not be done. I just don't see how Rosen fits into that equation. We would have to give him at least the contract of a starting QB in order to keep him long enough to find out if he can play, instead of letting him play on his rookie deal and letting him earn the next contract.

Not real comfortable with the idea of trading for Rosen, especially since the QB market seems to be coming to us. A lot of teams have their QB of the future, so the desperation is not there that you had to trade the future to go get a QB.

[jamrock]

The running QB learns to be the mobile QB. Something Murray will need to learn and Tebow didn't but Tebow wasn't a very good passer, or Vick either. No NFL team really wants a running QB. Cam and Tebow both at around 235 + lbs were beat up.

Tebow has a horrible arm. Vick has a very good arm. No comparison between those two. Vick sat out prime playing years and never got back to what he was or could have been.

[Boltjolt]

Tebow has a horrible arm. Vick has a very good arm. No comparison between those two. Vick sat out prime playing years and never got back to what he was or could have been.

Their arm has nothing to do with what im talking about and neither are very accurate regardless of arm strength. Vick has a gun but his accuracy wasnt that good. People like strong arm QBs but take Tyree Jackson for example. Huge guy, can move and has speed to be mobile and has a good arm but his accuracy isnt for shit and he has no touch on the ball. Even got reprimanded by Steve Smith for throwing too hard in the gaultlet drills at the combine lol.
Dude completed 55% of his passes in college.

[Fleet]

Im kind of expecting Liuget to come back. The dust is settling and i dont think there is a ton of interest in him. He could be a nice depth guy and it limits his snaps keeping him healthy.

If not him or someone else i question if going into the draft with literally 2 guys on the roster is smart. Is it not telegraphing a serious position of need? We have McGill but hes a practice squad guy. Just a body at this point.

Id probably feel better going into the draft with a 3rd DT on the roster. I dont want to have to trade picks to keep teams from jumping in front of us for a DT. Of which im certain teams know we are in the hunt for. Its pretty obvious.

I wouldnt be surprised if we are trying to get some value at the position right now.

[Budsman]

Rivers is still playing at a high level, wand while we are strapped for cash now, there is no reason to think we can't extend him. We have something like $86 mill in cap space next season, plus we can cut Perryman, Davis and Taylor to free up another $16 million, and another $4mill with Mebane. We do have some other FA to sign, but that is a lot of money to work with, even if there are some key guys to sign (like Bosa).

A lot of QB are working very hard and keeping themselves healthier longer. I don't think there is any reason to think that Rivers won't be able to still be a quality starting QB in a few seasons.

The advantage of moving on is that we do have some other young players nearing the and of their rookie deals. Just cutting ship with Rivers and moving on to Rosen has merit, since he has several years still on his rookie deal. Is an older Rivers with less talent around him better than an ascending Rosen with more salary cap space to help him?

Philly got a lot of extra help a couple of years ago, and while they are able to keep making the salary cap thing work, Wentz is coming up on the end of his rookie deal. They will have to make some tough choices when they have to start paying him $30 mill per season, whose current cap # is ~$8.5 mill. Dallas is in the same situation, since they have the last year of Prescott's deal and now will have to work on a new deal, and they are not necessarily sold on him yet.

I am uncomfortable with the idea of going with Rosen since I think it is a mistake to just give starting jobs out. Rosen had some flashes, but has yet to show he can be a starting QB. He was the 33rd ranked QB of the top 33 QB by passer rating. http://www.espn.com/nfl/statistics/p...rterbackRating

One of the things I like about TT and Lynn is they make even FA types win starting jobs. Russell Okung wa a notable exception, but mostly if new players come in they still have to compete with other players on the roster. Watkins at FS with Jenkins, and that competition may not be done. I just don't see how Rosen fits into that equation. We would have to give him at least the contract of a starting QB in order to keep him long enough to find out if he can play, instead of letting him play on his rookie deal and letting him earn the next contract.

Not real comfortable with the idea of trading for Rosen, especially since the QB market seems to be coming to us. A lot of teams have their QB of the future, so the desperation is not there that you had to trade the future to go get a QB.

That's fine I get your point and I think its ok to disagree. Many teams sign qbs with less starting time than Rosen and give them starter jobs, if you draft a QBs high he's anointed your starter and if we do the same they will be anointed as well. If you disagree and prefer signing multiple lower end qbs and letting them earn the job that's your call, I disagree.


As for the the article I don't find it that hard to follow or poorly written I'll tell you specifically where I got it:

"1) Correlation between Draft Position and "Starter Status"

Using Pro Football Reference as a resource, I looked at all players who were classified as starters at the beginning of the 2014 season to determine what round they were drafted in upon entering the league. Of the 595 players designated as such, the results reveal the following:

Round	Freq.	Percent	Cuml
1	178	29.9	29.9
2	104	17.5	47.4
3	75	12.6	60.0
4	64	10.8	70.8
5	38	6.4	77.2
6	29	4.9	82.0
7	25	4.2	86.2
Undrafted	81	13.6	99.8
Supplemental	1	0.2	100.0
Total	595	100

- Nearly 30% of all starters were 1^st round draft picks when drafted into the league;

- Roughly 30% were taken in either the 2^ndor 3^rd round;

- Roughly 26% were taken in either rounds 4 through 7;

- Undrafted players (14%) were the 3^rdmost likely group to comprise 2014's starters...only behind 1^st round (30%) and 2^nd round (18%) picks.
"

Maybe your numbers are more accurate but I think it's pretty obvious that a first round qb has a higher chance of panning out than a random third round player and that's really the point.

I get it you don't want Rosen and you are likely to get your wish, I think it's a low risk high reward play that can really help a team if it hits and isn't going to break them if it misses.

[La Costa Boy]

https://overthecap.com/player/travis-benjamin/309/

Nope. Benjamin's cap # is $6.5 million, and we would get $5.25 million if we released him. We can't get the bonus money back no matter what.

Also, I think Suh had it in his mind that he was playing at a discount last year to make a push for a championship with the Rams. Not sure he is willing to play for even less.

Whether or not anyone is willing to pay him in the $14 mill + range anymore is another story. But it wouldn't be the first time an aging vet overvalues himself. The fact he is still on the market suggests he won't get north of $10 mill. He might, but if a team were willing to throw that much at him, I think they probably would have.

While we about $12 mill in cap space right now, we have effectively are down to $2-4 mill in cap space that is not spoken for. If we cut Benjamin, then we could have $7-9 million, stretching it, maybe $10 mill.

As far as Suh and changing the narrative, there is some truth to it, but the chance of 1 player changing the narrative is pretty slim anyway. While Suh can occasionally still dominate, he has really not been a dominant player over most of his career. He still flashes it, but he is not the elite DT anymore.

Benjamin is getting 3rd WR money. He is the 11th starter on an offense that plays 3 wr (11 personnel) 71% of the time (based on last years numbers). The NFL as a whole is a bit less, but the point is, he is a pretty regular player. I can see not releasing him until we see someone show more. There are several candidates to replace him, but it is always nice to see those guys step up before you cut a starter. It is not like it hasn't happened that a team cuts a guy like Benjamin and then it leaves a hole in the offense.

Now, if someone appears on the market after the June 1st purges, then it is a different story. I have no problem taking a risk at 3rd WR, if we are upgrading elsewhere. But we don't seem interested in Suh, and there is no one else out there who is a big upgrade we couldn't sign with the cap space we already have.

To expand on that, I was referring more to the draft as it would put more focus into our first round pick such as LB or OT. And secondly, i would just love to have a big ol nasty slobber eater up front. my .02 centavos

[jamrock]

Their arm has nothing to do with what im talking about and neither are very accurate regardless of arm strength. Vick has a gun but his accuracy wasnt that good. People like strong arm QBs but take Tyree Jackson for example. Huge guy, can move and has speed to be mobile and has a good arm but his accuracy isnt for shit and he has no touch on the ball. Even got reprimanded by Steve Smith for throwing too hard in the gaultlet drills at the combine lol.
Dude completed 55% of his passes in college.

I know what you are talking about but was responding to a specific comment you made about throwing ability.