ThePowderBlues.com first enstalment of, the Tom Telesco Approval rating pole!*

[Den60]

Freeney's was only signed because of the injury to Ingram.

And we wouldn't have been so desperate if we had kept Barnes OR Phillips.

[ArtistFormerlyKnownAsBKR]

Telesco made the right moves because Telesco judged them to be correct?! Got it. But why have the thread then???

No, thats not what I said. I said I value his judgments. What I did say is that keeping those guys MAYBE moved us from where you see us finishing overall to like 18 or 20th in the league. If you thin that is worth shelling out more money for, then just say so and we can agree to disagree. However, I think a more realistic and useful strategy is to cut the deadwood, ride out some of the horrid financial decisions made by AJ Smith, play the young guys we have to see if they've got anything and then have some good drafts. Those drafts would have a higher probability of success with higher draft picks. But I get it, you want to claw for wilcdcard spots by patching things together with older players. My take is that using that approach two years from now we'd go 2-14 and then be fucked for a decade. Under this scenario, we at least have a chance to be competitive in 2-3 years.

[Stinky Wizzleteats+]

Lets see what Phillips has left in the tank. So far Feeeney looks like a starter and in Denver Phillips as a backup when Von Miller returbs.

[ArtistFormerlyKnownAsBKR]

Bring back those guys AND fix the offensive line and we are talking playoffs. You keep thinking that we were forced to finish somewhere between 4 and 7 wins. This team easily could have been a playoff contender with the right moves. We had one bad unit on the team and that unit was bad mostly because of one part of that unit (the OL). Before the OL blew apart, the offense was a top 5 scoring unit in each and every year that Rivers had been the starter. By fixing the OL and adding just a little punch at RB, I think we could have been a top 10 offense and a top 10 defense, giving us very realistic playoff aspirations.

What was your plan to fix the OL, knowing you just dropped all that cash to bring back all the deadwood. So I assume you would've matched or exceeded Denver's price to retain Vazquez. And still brought in some of the FA linemen that Telesco signed. And Woodhead? Cox? Would you have signed Freeney to replace Ingram? So now you're talking quite a lot of money. Not enough, really to sign more (or more impactful) FA linemen. So you'd be relying on the draft. Fluker and who? Starting two rookies?

Playoffs? Um, OK. I dont think thats realistic. There is more wrong with this team than you will admit. Those previous high scoring offenses had players like VJ and Sproles. Now we're relying on Floyd, Meachem Mathews, etc. And the way you would have constructed it would be relying on a lot of older, bigger money guys. That's a recipe for trying to be competitive now, but screwing yourself financially and otherwise for a much longer time. Semi-blowing this thing up gives you a rolling start toward a return to competitiveness.

[ArtistFormerlyKnownAsBKR]

Martin's contract. It is a 4 year deal:


Jonathan Martin Salary Cap Page

Jonathan Martin
Position: RT
APY: $1,196,067
Salary Rank: 27/72



Year BaseSalary ProratedBonus RosterBonus WorkoutBonus OtherBonus CapNumber DeadMoney CapSavings

2012 $390,000 $479,867 $0 $0 $0 $869,867 $2,526,934 ($1,657,067)
2013 $607,466 $479,867 $0 $0 $0 $1,087,333 $2,047,067 ($959,734)
2014 $824,933 $479,867 $0 $0 $0 $1,304,800 $959,734 $345,066
2015 $1,042,400 $479,867 $0 $0 $0 $1,522,267 $479,867 $1,042,400

The player in question is named "Vaughn Martin." He plays DE. He signed a two yr deal with the Fish.

CONTRACT:2 yr(s) / $4,000,000 SIGNING BONUS $250,000 AVERAGE SALARY $2,000,000 GUARANTEED:$750,000 FREE AGENT:2015 / Unrestricted
YEAR BASE S. BONUS MISC. CAP HIT DEAD
2013 1,550,000 125,000 - 1,675,000 750,000
2014 2,200,000 125,000 - 2,325,000 125,000

These outliers are starting to add up.

[Den60]

The player in question is named "Vaughn Martin." He plays DE. He signed a two yr deal with the Fish.

CONTRACT:2 yr(s) / $4,000,000 SIGNING BONUS $250,000 AVERAGE SALARY $2,000,000 GUARANTEED:$750,000 FREE AGENT:2015 / Unrestricted
YEAR BASE S. BONUS MISC. CAP HIT DEAD
2013 1,550,000 125,000 - 1,675,000 750,000
2014 2,200,000 125,000 - 2,325,000 125,000

These outliers are starting to add up.

Momentary brain fart. I stand corrected.

[ArtistFormerlyKnownAsBKR]

And we wouldn't have been so desperate if we had kept Barnes OR Phillips.

Phillips should have been gone long ago. Barnes is a nice player, but not nice enough to spend the money it would have taken to sign him. Freeney's a better player and unfortunately, Telesco has not developed the ability to flawlessly predict the future. Perhaps those signings could have been an option if we weren't stuck with completely unproductive deals like Gaither and Meachem.

[Den60]

Phillips should have been gone long ago. Barnes is a nice player, but not nice enough to spend the money it would have taken to sign him. Freeney's a better player and unfortunately, Telesco has not developed the ability to flawlessly predict the future. Perhaps those signings could have been an option if we weren't stuck with completely unproductive deals like Gaither and Meachem.

As I have said numerous times, I would have been more inclined to re-sign Barnes than Phillips based on their age alone. Barnes isn't expensive and is a helluva lot cheaper than Freeney. I also have to say that I and at least one other poster on here complained that we were very thin on defense and especially at the OLB position before Ingram was injured. One does not have to be a soothsayer to understand that injuries happen and do even happen to key players. AJ was pummeled on here for not have players available immediately when he lost Diehlman and McNeil two seasons ago. I don't see why we should be giving TT a pass for not have a backup plan in place. you have to agree that Freeney was never on the Chargers radar until after Ingram got hurt.

Have to add that even you said that AJ had no other choice but to sign Gaither last year. I think it was Benassi who called you out on that one on the old board.

[SFW]

As I have said numerous times, I would have been more inclined to re-sign Barnes than Phillips based on their age alone. Barnes isn't expensive and is a helluva lot cheaper than Freeney. I also have to say that I and at least one other poster on here complained that we were very thin on defense and especially at the OLB position before Ingram was injured. One does not have to be a soothsayer to understand that injuries happen and do even happen to key players. AJ was pummeled on here for not have players available immediately when he lost Diehlman and McNeil two seasons ago. I don't see why we should be giving TT a pass for not have a backup plan in place. you have to agree that Freeney was never on the Chargers radar until after Ingram got hurt.

Have to add that even you said that AJ had no other choice but to sign Gaither last year. I think it was Benassi who called you out on that one on the old board.

I too wanted Barnes re-signed on an affordable contract and was happy to see Phillips go. However, even if they did re-sign Barnes as soon as Ingram got injured the team would have been in the same position it was when they signed Freeney. They would have still been forced to find an alternative solution for a starting OLB. There is no way Barnes, English or Keiser should fill that void.

[ArtistFormerlyKnownAsBKR]

As I have said numerous times, I would have been more inclined to re-sign Barnes than Phillips based on their age alone. Barnes isn't expensive and is a helluva lot cheaper than Freeney. I also have to say that I and at least one other poster on here complained that we were very thin on defense and especially at the OLB position before Ingram was injured. One does not have to be a soothsayer to understand that injuries happen and do even happen to key players. AJ was pummeled on here for not have players available immediately when he lost Diehlman and McNeil two seasons ago. I don't see why we should be giving TT a pass for not have a backup plan in place. you have to agree that Freeney was never on the Chargers radar until after Ingram got hurt.

Have to add that even you said that AJ had no other choice but to sign Gaither last year. I think it was Benassi who called you out on that one on the old board.

Context matters. You and Benassi looked at one post and ignored the rest of the posts in the thread.

As for the depth argument, AJ and Tom Telesco (and the team) are in fundamentally different situations. One was trying to take advantage of a window. The other is trying to clean up a mess and retore the team to competitiveness. Apples and oranges.

[ArtistFormerlyKnownAsBKR]

I too wanted Barnes re-signed on an affordable contract and was happy to see Phillips go. However, even if they did re-sign Barnes as soon as Ingram got injured the team would have been in the same position it was when they signed Freeney. They would have still been forced to find an alternative solution for a starting OLB. There is no way Barnes, English or Keiser should fill that void.

Precisely.

[Yubaking]

What was your plan to fix the OL, knowing you just dropped all that cash to bring back all the deadwood. So I assume you would've matched or exceeded Denver's price to retain Vazquez. And still brought in some of the FA linemen that Telesco signed. And Woodhead? Cox? Would you have signed Freeney to replace Ingram? So now you're talking quite a lot of money. Not enough, really to sign more (or more impactful) FA linemen. So you'd be relying on the draft. Fluker and who? Starting two rookies?

Playoffs? Um, OK. I dont think thats realistic. There is more wrong with this team than you will admit. Those previous high scoring offenses had players like VJ and Sproles. Now we're relying on Floyd, Meachem Mathews, etc. And the way you would have constructed it would be relying on a lot of older, bigger money guys. That's a recipe for trying to be competitive now, but screwing yourself financially and otherwise for a much longer time. Semi-blowing this thing up gives you a rolling start toward a return to competitiveness.

Yes, this team absolutely could have been a playoff team had Telesco not blown the team apart. They were likely 4 plays from 11-5 last year and are no longer carrying the Norv Turner anchor around their necks. In 2010, Rivers proved that he can throw to a bunch of nobodies and have the #1 ranked offense in the league (Jackson hold out, Gates, Naanee, Floyd injuries, et cetera). We added Woodhead, which was a good add and he fills the "Sproles role".

People make it sound like Rivers and Mathews sucked last year. They did not. The statistical drop off in Rivers' performance is directly correlated to the drop off in OL play even to the point when Gaither played well for 5 games in 2011 and solidified the line, Rivers' level of play "miraculously" improved also. What a shocking concept! An immobile QB plays better when he actually has pass protection. And I take it for granted that unless Mathews is ethereal, neither he nor any RB can run through holes that aren't there. The truth is that if the OL gets fixed, the offense can play, with or without top playmakers in the passing game (as 2010 proved). People forget that this offense was a top 5 scoring offense every year Rivers has been the starter until last year.

So, yeah, to borrow and paraphrase from the years of the Clinton administration, "It's the offensive line, stupid." I would have signed a FA LT. If Dunlap works out (and he played well on Thursday), then Telesco would have done better than me in that respect because I would have gone after a bigger name FA LT (like Long or Smith). I think drafting the RT was fine. I would have cut Clary to save $3M+ to use this year. I would have cut Royal. I would have kept Spurlock because he can play all of KR/PR/WR and I saw no difference in his ability level versus Royal's last year as a WR. I would not have re-signed Goodman, Novak or R. Brown (and I liked the addition of Brown going into last year, but he's done). I am not sure how much we could have saved by cutting McClain--can't recall if his money was dead or not, but he is one of the highest paid FBs in the league and isn't that good.

I would have signed Cox, Woodhead, and at least one OG (like Rhinehart) as Telesco did. I would not have signed Patrick, Wynn, D.J. Smith, Ohrnberger or Freeney. I would have re-signed Martin, Franklin, Phillips, Barnes, D. Williams, Jammer and Bigby.

Then, as I stated above, I would have been fine drafting Fluker in round one. I would not have traded up in round 2. I would have drafted Jon Bostic (who played very well last night) at #45. I would have drafted John Jenkins in the third round and would have been thinking about a RB in the 4th round (like J. Franklin), but would have thought about taking S. Thomas with that pick (like that 4.37 40 time) and coming back with either Randle or Gillislee in the 5th round (as they both were still on the board when we picked in the 5th). I might have had to re-sign Novak when D. Hopkins went off the board two picks in front of us in the 6th, but only to a one year deal. I liked the physical gifts displayed by N. Williams, a 3-4 DE, at the Combine, who went in the 7th round to PIT, but have to say that Sorenson was very impressive in his debut (in fact, much better than Clipboard Jesus).

Even if we had to use Troutman as the starter at RG versus Clary, and had to sign Ajirotutu (who works very well with Rivers), I just can't justify keeping Clary and Royal when that money could have been used to sign about three of the solid defensive players that we let go.

You can already see the end result of not bringing back our solid defensive veterans, who, at worst, would have been great reserves--our reserves were outscored by Seattle's 31-7. It's exactly what almost every expert has reported--we have no quality depth at all. And the frustration is that it didn't have to be that way.

The reserves will play (injuries or just rest for starters) and the other team will score when it happens. We could have had a top 10 offense and a top 10 defense. Now, I think we will have neither because I think the subs will cause us to get behind, which will force us to throw, taking away from what appears to be the big and strong OL's strongsuit--run blocking, which was very impressive against SEA on Thursday night.

Having made those moves, I think that, especially in the AFC and with this year's schedule, we could have been a strong contender for the playoffs. I think we would have been better than last year's team, which easily could have been a playoff team. Think about it. Who exactly are the playoff teams in the AFC going to be this year? Start with DEN, NE and HOU and throw in maybe CIN. What's left? BAL lost some key players and barely got in last year; IND was a fluke of historical magnitude (hugely overrated, really not good at anything, the most negative PF-PA of any 11 win playoff team in more than a decade and maybe longer); PIT is an aging team we beat last year; MIA may be good, but are unproven. We would have had to have made the top 2 of these kinds of teams, not exactly an overwhelming task--unless you gut your team as Telesco has done.

As you can see, I am more okay with what Telesco has done to fix the OL than I am with how he screwed up the defensive unit. I think he forgot the mantra, "It's the offensive line, stupid." I think we could have kept the veterans and drafted to phase them out in 2014 and 2015. The advantage is that we would not have had to sacrifice one of Rivers' limited seasons as we seem to have done this year. I think we would have gotten to the same point in the long run, just without sacrificing positive results in the short run. I think Rivers' value to the team and just how difficult it is to get a top level QB will not be appreciated until Rivers is gone. But I am old enough to know that the last top level QB we had before Rivers was Fouts (Brees was never a sustained top level QB for us, couldn't run our system as well as he has NO's system) and he played his last games with us in about 1987, so you get a QB like a Fouts or a Rivers once every 20 years or so and that's why it is critical to make every season in the limited time you have such a QB count, and even more so when there are no historically dominant teams in the NFL and there is a power vacuum in the AFC, all of which increases any one team's chances of getting into the playoffs and winning a Super Bowl. Even teams with crappy QBs, like the 2007 Giants, have proven that all you have to do in the current era is to get a ticket to the dance and take your chances, so it frustrates me when it looks like we have chosen to throw our ticket away for this season.