2014 Official Draft Thread

[RobH]

Right. I would prefer a taller CB also. Nobody is saying that we should knock Verrett off of our draft board altogether. I am saying his lack of height is a weakness that warrants a slight downgrading of the player for the reason that he would tend to struggle in some situations because of that liability (against taller receivers). The point being that he may not be able to "simply play" in some situations.

Revis is not a good comparison because he is 2 inches taller and his arms are two inches longer. Those 4+ inches matter.

Even Flowers is an inch taller and has slightly longer arms, but that is a much closer comparison. In a shallower overall 2008 draft, he was taken with the 35th pick by the Chiefs. I think that is close to where Verrett should go, so I do not think Verrett is value at #25 for us. And, because we have S. Williams already, I do not think he is a great fit for us. I would rather have Gilbert, Dennard or Fuller because they are better period and because they are bigger, they are all probably a better fit for us in light of our other personnel.

Dude, to state it simply: It ain't the meat; it's the motion.

[Beerman]

Jadaveon Clowney would also be of better value further down in the draft.

Dude that's just a stupid comparison. Simply posting to be an ass.

[Beerman]

Speed is important, but how about quickness? I think a lot of times people lose track that quickness is part of functional speed.

A lot of DB have been successful with slowish 40 times, but every guy I can think of like that is quick. There are some fast guys, who lack quickness, and everyone like that is pretty useless. In our scheme, playing so much man/zone off coverage, I don't think speed is that important. But you better be able to react quickly and close. That is quickness more then speed, and I don't know if there is any objective measure of that.

I have never seen a guy without quickness develop it, but I have seen players without speed develop that later.

I think you need that combination of speed and quickness nowadays. At least to be in that elite tier. Just looking back at the game when we faced Desean Jackson, we just couldn't cover him. There's also a slew of WR's that have come into the league with similar skill sets like Tavon Austin, Randall Cobb, and Brandon Cooks this year.

It's only going to get worse with more teams using short, high percentage passing games. You have to be able to react to those short crossers and screens and limit YAC.

I also think that in order to be successful as a slow corner, you have to be able to be physical with the WR. You are pretty much forced to be a press corner. If a team puts you in space, you are screwed because you can't recover.

[Millionaire Wussy]

Tackling would be nice.

I do think speed is a BIG priority for TT though. He's mentioned it repeatedly. He then drafted Williams who had the fastest unofficial 40.

Like has been mentioned, Verrett is possibly the best off man cover guy (AND has a ton of speed) in this draft and because of that I think he is valued by us possibly moreso than teams that play press man.

That said, for that reason he could very well drop to the 2nd. If we are set on him, I would rather trade back a few spots and still get him. Yuba may not state his point clearly, but he is right that Verrett may be better value a bit further down the draft.

I was so excited about Williams after watching him go step for step with a Seattle WR down the sidelines in that first preseason game. That was impressive to watch. I'm not used to seeing that from one of our d-backs. Then he got hurt the next week. I think it's a good point in looking at who TT has drafted at CB so far and Williams is all about speed.

[ArtistFormerlyKnownAsBKR]

Dude that's just a stupid comparison. Simply posting to be an ass.

I think being calling people names is being an ass. I wasn't the only person that noticed or remarked. The comparison is totally valid. If you meant something different, then you should have said something different.

*shrug*

[Yubaking]

This demonstrates that you don't know what "technique" means as it relates to the position. What you're saying is an aspect of playing the position. It's not the entirety of technique that denies opponents positive outcomes on passes.



Did a 5'9" player ever prevent you from being in position to grab it? Now we can maybe talk about what technique means. What if the pass wasn't on target, say, too low for you? Or behind you? On a sidenote, I wonder how many of those 5'9" defenders had Verrett's speed, quickness, hand-eye coordination or leaping ability? Never mind. Rhetorical.



If it were all about that, the whole story in the NFL would be about getting the tallest guys. But it's not. Teyo Johnson, Alvin Harper and Mikhael Ricks didn't dominate. It also has to do with speed, route-running, quickness in and out of moves, hands, timing and leaping ability, reading defenses and rapport with the QB. You do Gates a disservice by saying his success is all physical. That's part of it. But there is a whole lot more to it than your simplistic logic exercise, which has very little to do (apparently) with actual knowledge or experience. Meanwhile, you act like it's just a matter of throwing it up and letting tall guys catch it. But how many receivers--even tall ones--excel at that? We've been spoiled here with Floyd, Gates, DX and VJ in recent years....oh and a guy like Rivers who is a master at timing and touch on those kinds of throws. So how many receivers and QBs are actually good at it? Are there so many that it's worth taking an inferior player who is taller? Again, rhetorical.



Just like you think it was right for Drew Brees and Russell Wilson not to be taken in the first round, because of their physical/measurable "red flags." And yet, a do-over in those drafts would have both players taken in the top 10, if not top 5. The best time to stop digging that hole you've been working on was yesterday. Today is the second best time.

I confess to not knowing what kind of pro Verrett will be. But I've seen him play and if he were the pick at 25, I'd be pretty stoked. He's a very good CB. Sure, I wish he was taller. But I'm not going to quibble if he can play. But simply discounting him bc of his height and measurables (which is, actually, what you're doing) is reductive and ridiculous. The number of examples at CB and at other positions is too numerous to detail here.

I disagree with your description of "technique".

Whether basketball defenders had Verrett's speed, etc. is irrelevant. I never said I was a professional level athlete. The point was about size, catch radius and body position among similar level athletes and the impact that a difference in size may have.

I never said Gates was all physical--not even close to what I said. I indicated that Gates does a good job of using his body to shield defenders from the ball. That does not mean that he does not do other things well. For you to suggest that that is what I meant is just illogical.

I never said that all anyone needed was a tall receiver to excel--not even close to what I said. I indicated that Verrett might be susceptible to the challenges presented by taller receivers because he is small. I think the list of big receivers that you named that did not have great careers in the NFL may have had better results if they got to match up against small framed 5'9" CBs every week. Such a DB match up would be pretty ideal for them--as good as it is going to get anyway. I never said those lesser WRs actually got to play against diminutive CBs every week, did I?

You ask how many tall receivers excel at going up to get the ball. Again, it is the wrong question and it ignores the point of my discussion. How would Floyd, Jackson, et cetera do going up against a 5'9" CB on high balls? I would bet on them and not on the 5'9" CB. That's the point.

The whole point of my mentioning Wilson and Brees was to point to players that have had good/great NFL careers despite their lack of size. Those who drafted Brees and Wilson knew that they might have outstanding careers. Everyone could foresee that that was a very real possibility and yet somehow they were still not drafted in the first round. That's because they had risk associated with them in terms of their lack of size. So, every team passed on them at least once in the case of Brees and at least twice in the case of Wilson.

That's what most NFL teams do if they are smart. They pass on taking the risk early on in the draft. Then, when the player falls a little into later rounds, they jump up to take the player because now the player represents value and not so much of a gamble because the only concern was one of size. If the guy pans out, they have a steal. If he flames out, at least the damage is not as severe. My belief is that this is basic draft strategy 101 and it is not controversial in the least.

The problem with your argument is that you are talking about the draft as if the teams drafting already had the benefit of hindsight. They do not. They do not get to do a re-draft such as the kind you mentioned. They have to look at it with no knowledge of the player's NFL career in waiting. You have admitted that you do not know what kind of professional Verrett is going to be. Neither do I. From that perspective, teams usually do not take players in the first round with a perceived physical shortcoming that they think could affect the player's play. Such players are properly not considered first round players because they carry too much risk.

We have no business reaching for Verrett and taking him at #25 would be a reach. If the team likes him, he is a perfect player for us to let fall some like Telesco did with Allen (only not nearly as far). I disagree with those that think he is a good fit for our team, but more importantly, even if I thought he was a great fit for our team, he simply is not value at #25. He looks more like #35 to me.

[Yubaking]

Look at the DB that the Colts used to like. Smaller, quicker guys, most of whom didn't have great speed, but guys who broke on the ball well.

Beer and I discussed it some time ago, but this will be an interesting draft in terms of seeing what kind of CB TT likes. It could be that is just the type of CB that Indy liked because of their scheme (cover 2), but I can see the same type of DB being successful in our D. But if he doesn't care about top speed and or passing the eyeball test, good DB are available later in the draft. If he does value speed more, or they are looking to go for more man to man types, then I think we could go for one earlier.

I would have nightmares if Telesco attempted to bring that soft, pussy Colts type dumb ass Tampa-2 defense to our team. The thought of watching other teams shove it up our asses on the ground in the playoffs like teams did so many times to those Colts teams disgusts me. The approach is just about 180 degrees opposite of the big, physical and intimidating defense I would want us to have.

[Yubaking]

No. We needed a WR. Parker was not starter-worthy and VJ was still a work in progress. Keenan McCardell was in decline and only one year before retirement. There was a definite need for KR, as you say. I think what happened there is that AJ was really in love with Bowe and when KC took him, AJ was surprised and had to scramble. Didn't like that pick from the get-go.

If that is what happened with Buster Davis, then my view of A.J. just took an even bigger hit than it did with the pick itself. How in the heck is an NFL GM not ready if a player he likes gets drafted. If he likes the player, isn't it possible that some other team likes him? There is so much time between picks in an NFL draft, a GM should never have to scramble and should be ready with contingency plans. I couldn't imagine anything like that happening. That wouldn't even happen to an owner in my fantasy baseball league's draft with a 90 second limit between picks.

[Yubaking]

Dude, to state it simply: It ain't the meat; it's the motion.

Dude, you did get that Steve was saying that Revis and Verrett were similar in terms of a size comparison? The reality is that they are not. Revis is an average sized CB. Verrett is a small CB. They do not have the same height or body type. The part you bolded was my pointing that out to Steve, nothing more.

[Stinky Wizzleteats+]

Body size, arm length, 40 time... All the CASUAL observer needs to know...

I want FOOTBALL PLAYERS! GUYS WITH MORE HART AND GUTS THAN $$$ IN THEIR HEADS.
How do you find that from your keyboard Yubba?

[RobH]

Dude, you did get that Steve was saying that Revis and Verrett were similar in terms of a size comparison? The reality is that they are not. Revis is an average sized CB. Verrett is a small CB. They do not have the same height or body type. The part you bolded was my pointing that out to Steve, nothing more.

I guess you didn't get the joke.

[blahblahblah]

I would have nightmares if Telesco attempted to bring that soft, pussy Colts type dumb ass Tampa-2 defense to our team. The thought of watching other teams shove it up our asses on the ground in the playoffs like teams did so many times to those Colts teams disgusts me. The approach is just about 180 degrees opposite of the big, physical and intimidating defense I would want us to have.

Did you consider the Tampa '97-'05 defense "soft, pussy,...,dumb ass defense"? Ronde Barber and Donnie Abraham too small? I consider that Tampa '02 defense the second best I've ever personally seen (after Ravens '00).