Giants @ Chargers Pregame Discussion (wk 14)

[Boltgang74]

Yep lets stick to football.

[Caslon]

VJ took until mid-year 3 and it was really his full year 4 he emerged as a star. Palmer is in his 12th game, year 1.

Agreed. Damn…any experience is good experience. And, the lowly Giants are a great opportunity. The non elite.

[Guest]

VJ took until mid-year 3 and it was really his full year 4 he emerged as a star. Palmer is in his 12th game, year 1.

I agree with your take about VJ taking time to develop, but I do not think that VJ and Palmer are similar at all. Jackson was much bigger, faster and a better leaper. Palmer comes into the NFL as a better route runner, but lacking in the natural gifts that Jackson had.

In short, Jackson had a lot of what you cannot teach. Palmer has learned more of what there is to learn than Jackson had by this point in his career, but has significantly less of what coaching cannot give him.

Palmer lacks the tools to be like Jackson was. While not devoid of athletic talent by any means, he lacks elite traits (size, speed, vertical leaping ability, ability to create separation, uniquely good hands, et cetera). He has every appearance of a career reserve, though I think he is worthy of being on an NFL roster (as opposed to a player like K.J. Hill).

[TexanBeerlover]

I agree with your take about VJ taking time to develop, but I do not think that VJ and Palmer are similar at all. Jackson was much bigger, faster and a better leaper. Palmer comes into the NFL as a better route runner, but lacking in the natural gifts that Jackson had.

In short, Jackson had a lot of what you cannot teach. Palmer has learned more of what there is to learn than Jackson had by this point in his career, but has significantly less of what coaching cannot give him.

Palmer lacks the tools to be like Jackson was. While not devoid of athletic talent by any means, he lacks elite traits (size, speed, vertical leaping ability, ability to create separation, uniquely good hands, et cetera). He has every appearance of a career reserve, though I think he is worthy of being on an NFL roster (as opposed to a player like K.J. Hill).

Since coming to this board I’ve learned a lot and one of those tools is RAS scores. Invaluable metric, Josh 6010 210 pulled a very decent score of 8.22 meaning he was good across the board with one exception and that was agility (4.25 shuttle and 6.98 3cone). Directly supports above breakdown as accurate. 4.51 forty, 34” vert, 10’ 4” broad. This checks off all the boxes chaincrusher wrote up.

interestingly, Jackson also ran a 4.51 forty but with 39” vert and 4.0 short shuttle at 6046 241 pounds.

[beachcomber]

Since coming to this board I’ve learned a lot and one of those tools is RAS scores. Invaluable metric, Josh 6010 210 pulled a very decent score of 8.22 meaning he was good across the board with one exception and that was agility (4.25 shuttle and 6.98 3cone). Directly supports above breakdown as accurate. 4.51 forty, 34” vert, 10’ 4” broad. This checks off all the boxes chaincrusher wrote up.

interestingly, Jackson also ran a 4.51 forty but with 39” vert and 4.0 short shuttle at 6046 241 pounds.

remember reading (and posting) an article awhile ago (few years back ?) that clearly stated that RAS wasn't all that in terms of projecting NFL proficiency.... in short the correlation is lacking, and then some.

[powderblueboy]

Since coming to this board I’ve learned a lot and one of those tools is RAS scores. Invaluable metric, Josh 6010 210 pulled a very decent score of 8.22 meaning he was good across the board with one exception and that was agility (4.25 shuttle and 6.98 3cone). Directly supports above breakdown as accurate. 4.51 forty, 34” vert, 10’ 4” broad. This checks off all the boxes chaincrusher wrote up.

interestingly, Jackson also ran a 4.51 forty but with 39” vert and 4.0 short shuttle at 6046 241 pounds.

Getting in and out of breaks, accelerating, physicality, knowing where to be, great hands.....these are not directly measurable qualities, but are crucial;
Palmer will eventually have all five of these at a high level.

Palmer's top end speed is what will keep him from being one of the most lethal weapons in the NFL.

[powderblueboy]

It’s not always the best team, but the hottest team that wins the super bowl. Last year Tampa was 7-5 before hitting their stride.

And the team with the best health.

Tampa bay had everyone ready for the playoffs.

[TexanBeerlover]

remember reading (and posting) an article awhile ago (few years back ?) that clearly stated that RAS wasn't all that in terms of projecting NFL proficiency.... in short the correlation is lacking, and then some.

Its summation of a prospects metrics that’s all, if you don’t care to measure and evaluate using those, present a better metric?

[beachcomber]

Its summation of a prospects metrics that’s all, if you don’t care to measure and evaluate using those, present a better metric?

RAS stands for relative athletic score.... there are other metrics that better predict a player's viability in translating their college talent into NFL productivity.

and nothing to take personally, just reporting from afield, as forget the guy's name who always interpolated/extrapolated combine numbers for edge rushers, and w/some degree of success.

so don't have a metric elixir off the top of my head, just recall that just coz a guy's an athlete, that doesn't make him an NFL frontliner.

ps. dude's name was/is Waldo.... if I recall correctly.

[TexanBeerlover]

RAS is a piece to the puzzle to determine a prospects evaluation/grade. Last year Brevin Jordan was very productive for Miami and some thought that translated to 2nd rd grade. He was drafted in 5th rd. by Texans has a couple TD’s but cannot separate or overwhelm DB’s in coverage. His RAS reflects that difficulty next level where it does matter. Poor in every category expect one Composite Speed grade, 4.68 forty, 1.59 10 yard split. So you can utilize his one great trait but simply one dimensional. Tape and metrics match.

[Guest]

Since coming to this board I’ve learned a lot and one of those tools is RAS scores. Invaluable metric, Josh 6010 210 pulled a very decent score of 8.22 meaning he was good across the board with one exception and that was agility (4.25 shuttle and 6.98 3cone). Directly supports above breakdown as accurate. 4.51 forty, 34” vert, 10’ 4” broad. This checks off all the boxes chaincrusher wrote up.

interestingly, Jackson also ran a 4.51 forty but with 39” vert and 4.0 short shuttle at 6046 241 pounds.

The issue is that while Palmer has decent abilities, he has no elite abilities. He is not slow for a WR, but not fast either. He is below average in his vertical leap. He is not tall and he is not large. He is not great at consistently gaining separation.

Jackson actually ran his time at the combine versus a pro day time (pro day times are almost always faster for players), was much larger, more physical, and had a much better vertical leap. Jackson could get deep effectively, could use his body effectively as a possession receiver, and was a good catch and run receiver.

I would argue that if you made vertical box columns of "elite", "acceptable" and "poor", Palmer would not check off a single box in the elite column over the various WR traits. To me, more than anything else, this is what gives Palmer JAG status and makes him a reserve caliber WR.

By contrast, a player that has some "poor" traits can still be a very valuable player if he also has some elite traits. Keenan Allen is a perfect example of this. He has elite get off and explosive quick cutting ability to get open right away even though he is essentially as slow as molasses for a WR.

[Guest]

Getting in and out of breaks, accelerating, physicality, knowing where to be, great hands.....these are not directly measurable qualities, but are crucial;
Palmer will eventually have all five of these at a high level.

Palmer's top end speed is what will keep him from being one of the most lethal weapons in the NFL.

Palmer does not have great hands and simply lacks elite traits altogether. He will be a fine reserve player in the NFL, but he should never be a starter for us unless our goal is to downgrade at the WR position.