Browns trade 2nd pick to Eagles

[Steve]

I can't recall anyone calling Joeckel "can't miss"

Fine, pick any draft and pick the top few players and the drafnik guys ALWAYS are saying CAN"T MISS. Know what, a huge percentage of those can't miss guys are busts.

The other thing you have to seperate as guys like Kiper and McShay, whose job it is to evaluate and mimic drat boards, and GM's whose job it is to find players. Kiper and McShay get a lot of points for guessing where players go. But if those same players are busts, Kiper and McShay don't seem to have any points taken off, while the GM's get fired.

The last thing to think about is what is the point of the draft. Guys like Ramsey, Buckner, and Tunsil seem to be getting really high marks because of their athleticism. And I don't think you can argue those points. But in the end, how many top draft picks end up being busts, largely because they are all those great athletes but never learn to become players. Then guys like JJ Watt, who was not even considered a top 10 pick is easily the best defensive player taken in the last 15 years (and it isn't even close). I can give Denver a pass for skipping Watt for Von Miller, but how about every other team? The point is that being the best athlete and the best in the draft process is only losely related to being the best player.

WE want the guy who is the best or will be the best player. Bosa fits need best at the top of the draft (setting the edge and playing the outside/offtackle run and adds pass rush), Conklin is the best OL in the draft, but we can probably trade down to get him, and the biggest need is at C or OG, and the best fit for that is probably with Kelly or Martin, but those can be had much later in the draft.

Again, go back and look at historical NFL drafts, there are plenty of really high picks all the draft guys (and NFL teams) loved as top 5, top 10 picks who did nothing, and middle 1st round guys in the hall of fame. Just cause the draft guys love them doesn't mean I have to like the same guys. I think they tend to fall in love with the measureables and things that you can easily see on tape, and I don't think those are the only things that make draft prospects great players.

[TTThunder]

That is completely subjective. Go to 20 NFL teams, you would probably find 5 or 6 different asnwers.

To me the best player on the board is Bosa and it isn't that close.

I would rather see us trade down and get Conklin because he is the best OL IMHO (and it isn't that close to #2).

Steve,

So if we stay put at #3, you will draft Bosa?

If we trade down to before-mid-first-round, you'll draft Conklin?

Go TT!!!

[bonehead]

Fine, pick any draft and pick the top few players and the drafnik guys ALWAYS are saying CAN"T MISS. Know what, a huge percentage of those can't miss guys are busts.

The other thing you have to seperate as guys like Kiper and McShay, whose job it is to evaluate and mimic drat boards, and GM's whose job it is to find players. Kiper and McShay get a lot of points for guessing where players go. But if those same players are busts, Kiper and McShay don't seem to have any points taken off, while the GM's get fired.

The last thing to think about is what is the point of the draft. Guys like Ramsey, Buckner, and Tunsil seem to be getting really high marks because of their athleticism. And I don't think you can argue those points. But in the end, how many top draft picks end up being busts, largely because they are all those great athletes but never learn to become players. Then guys like JJ Watt, who was not even considered a top 10 pick is easily the best defensive player taken in the last 15 years (and it isn't even close). I can give Denver a pass for skipping Watt for Von Miller, but how about every other team? The point is that being the best athlete and the best in the draft process is only losely related to being the best player.

WE want the guy who is the best or will be the best player. Bosa fits need best at the top of the draft (setting the edge and playing the outside/offtackle run and adds pass rush), Conklin is the best OL in the draft, but we can probably trade down to get him, and the biggest need is at C or OG, and the best fit for that is probably with Kelly or Martin, but those can be had much later in the draft.

Again, go back and look at historical NFL drafts, there are plenty of really high picks all the draft guys (and NFL teams) loved as top 5, top 10 picks who did nothing, and middle 1st round guys in the hall of fame. Just cause the draft guys love them doesn't mean I have to like the same guys. I think they tend to fall in love with the measureables and things that you can easily see on tape, and I don't think those are the only things that make draft prospects great players.

Steve, you keep harping on the "drafniks" but the truth is the real GM's and Scouts make horrible decisions in the Draft every year.....Jonas Mouton anyone?? I take what Kiper, Mayock etc...say with a grain of salt but I don't just outright dismiss or ridicule their efforts. Seems there are plenty of NFL people who are throwing darts, like Cleveland, two years ago they had TWO first round picks, they took Johnny Manziel and Justin Gilbert. Only two years later they both may be out of football.

[Steve]

I know the draft guys love Tunsil, but to me he is a great athlete who is still learning to play OT, and I just keep getting the sense that he is not going to work hard enough to ever be great. And while Tunsil has the kind of feet that prevent anyone from beating him to the corner, he is vulnerable to inside moves, blitzes and games that force him to protect his inside. His hand punch is not very good, and he always seems to wind up to hit someone. His hand placement is fine for college, but it is way too wide for an NFL OT. He is also nothign more than average on 2nd level blocks. He moves well, but he won't finish and he frequently is just standing there watching his guy take the runner down.

Conklin is the better player (by far) and is a much better athlete then people give him credit. I keep seeing people conplain about him not being a good enough athlete in space, but despite some technique hitches, you see him recover, so that he doesn't get beat. His feet are not quite as nimble as Tunsil, but they aren't bad. He looks bad because he is not a guy who flies around.The biggest complaint about him is that he opens up way to much when he is taking on faster speed guys outside, that leaves him vulnerable to moves inside but that is a pass protection thing that Michigan State does, that pro teams don't use. Michigan state pulls the backside OG to make that protection look like play action, so Conklin is allowed to open up, because the OG has the counter/inside move guy.

You have to love Conklin's technique and power in the running game. He gets his hands on the inside of players, drives out and then pops his hips, really driving and powering guys off the line. He keeps talking about his cockroach block, which is where he ends up flipping his guy over and pancaking him on his back, so the guy looks like a dead coackroach. I also like that once it was clear he had done well enough in the 40 to satisfy everyone, he went back to doing technique work with Hudson Houck (retired NFL OL great). And when guys talk about the NFL dream, most talk about draft day, Conklin keeps talking about the Super Bowl.

To be honest, the only reason I want to trade down to get Conklin is that I think other teams will give us the draft picks. I am actually fine with taking him #3 overall. I just think everyone else see him as a 10-12 guy, so if we can trade down a few spots and pick up a 2nd or 3rd, then why not. Supposedly, the Giants want him at #10, but that is the kind of stuff that people said about Eric Fischer who then ended up going #1 overall. Conklin won't go overall, but if the OL coach has a say, he will go higher then the draftniks think (see Brandon Schreff at #5 for Washington last year).

[bonehead]

I've seen Conklin going to Tennessee at #15 in some mocks....I wouldn't be surprised to see the Giants take Conklin at #10, they're sensible like that.

Steve...do you see a big spread between centers Kelly and Martin from Notre Dame? Do you see Martin as a plug and play Center?

[Steve]

Not as much as some people. I do think Kelly is better, but not by as much as some people. Kelly is more explosive, and that is the biggest difference. But I really like how Martin works the combos in the zone run game. He is excellent, and that is the foundation of the zone run game, and something we haven't done well since Hardwick and and Clary retired. I

MArtin does needs a little technique work. He could stay a bit lower in his stance. BUt his hand placement is better than most C, so I think he will be an easlier starter than most rookie C.