Greg Roman OC Discussion, Part 2

[gzubeck]

That's a great story... but the GM picks players.

The coaching staff probably told the GM that they have a fix for the center position. I cannot find fault in Hortiz draft last year other than getting serious about a center replacement. We might end up paying someone $20 mil per year to play center for us...it's now more important than any other position outside of QB.

[dmac_bolt]

These are the same coaches that coached Slater and Alt... are they not?
Re-read your words... you're almost there.

Slater was pro bowl caliber before they even walked in the building. Alt is the most natural and born to be pro bowl OT I’ve seen in a long time. OT is more pure innate “island” ability vs assignment switching and coaching is in the middle. A lot of reasons why Slater and Alt do not prove that Gro and Devlin are superior NFL OL coaches. They don’t prove they are not, but they do not prove they are. So we look inward for more clues on how great Gro and Devlin are as coaches and … yeah

Bottom line Gov, and you are really fighting strong, is they need to be able to coach up professional OTs AND IOLs, its not an either/or and scoring a 40 on the test (2 of 5) is a failing grade.

there is no notable other greatness that warrants retention other than familiarity. One of the hardest things to do as a leader in any organization is to recognize and then act on the conclusion that one of your top lieutenants is ok at his job, hasn’t done something egregiously wrong, but he is just not superior/great and does not have the extra that is needed to take your team to the highest level. Gro is that guy imo, he’s competent and steady (for the most part) and ok - but he lacks a creative unique vision to deliver anything more than common denominator conventional wisdom performance. Our goal is greatness and I believe now that is not Gro. We could still win a lot of games as long as Minter and the defense are excelling, but we won’t achieve the ceiling that we could.

Devlin is just incompetent. He has not improved that IOL at the detailed nuts and bolts level of their jobs in 2 years. Fire that guy yesterday, it doesn’t matter of the IOL players are below average. He is not improving them, try a different IOL coach who will try something different.

Edit: note both Slater and Alt have better pass block grades than run block. Why - because OT pass pro is the most individual talent ability. Rush blocking requires coordination with the rest of the OL, and that … requires good coaching. So the signs are even there in our two stars …

[Topcat]

Those people faded away once we beat the Chiefs and Broncos... just as I knew they would. Even without Slater, we grasped the AFCWest by the throat. Those teams recognized Roman's proclivity to run the ball. They feared that acumen. They stacked the box all day... even as we shredded them through the air for 318 yards and 3 TD passes. Not one person believed that Roman would continue to throw... they said he couldn't do it. Three weeks later, we threw 47 times against the Broncos, for another 300 yards, against a team known for their pass defense.

They were wrong. Now that the injuries have decimated the OL and they struggle to both run and pass, the same people are back to pick the bones. But Harbaugh knows... everyone knows... Roman will be back. And those same people will fade away again come September.

Good points there, Nut...but...what about Gro not dialing up more plays to protect Herbie from hits and sacks?

[Boltnut]

Slater and Alt are top 15 draft picks, full of talent and dedication to their craft. No coaching staff makes either of them and they will excel whatever team and coaching staff they play for

Well, maybe we should get some of those guys for the IOL.
Not guys you have to hand-hold.

Didn't Hortiz replace Bozeman with Linderbaum once already...?
Weren't Roman and Devlin on that staff at that time...?
Glad to hear that Roman/Devlin were able to communicate to Linderbaum... "See the guy blitzing...? Block him."

LOL! Since we both seem to truly understand the situation now... I'm heading back to the Draft Prospects or Roster Build threads...
I'll see you there...

Good luck with your Fire Roman Part 2.
BTW... whatever happen to Part 3?

[Boltnut]

Good points there, Nut...but...what about Gro not dialing up more plays to protect Herbie from hits and sacks?

By "dialing up" are you implying that maybe Bradley Bozeman should wear the green dot?
That way Roman could remind Boze to block the blitzing LB right in front of him?

Or maybe Harbaugh could convince the NFL to leave the communications system on during the play?
"OK Herbie, both safeties have rotated to the trips-left... hit the wide open RB in the flats... Now! Throw it Gawd Dammit! Throw it!"

Remember the famous Vince Lombardi quote?
When asked what he thought of his team's execution... he responded, "I'm all for it".
This is one of those situations.

[Bolt-O]

"I'm in favor of it." - John McKay, reportedly.

[Topcat]

By "dialing up" are you implying that maybe Bradley Bozeman should wear the green dot?
That way Roman could remind Boze to block the blitzing LB right in front of him?

Or maybe Harbaugh could convince the NFL to leave the communications system on during the play?
"OK Herbie, both safeties have rotated to the trips-left... hit the wide open RB in the flats... Now! Throw it Gawd Dammit! Throw it!"

Remember the famous Vince Lombardi quote?
When asked what he thought of his team's execution... he responded, "I'm all for it".
This is one of those situations.

To counter the pressure coming up IOL, I'm thinking at the least, dial up more rollouts, screens, swing passes and short passes to RB and TE in the flats...

[Boltinloudguy]

Well, maybe we should get some of those guys for the IOL.
Not guys you have to hand-hold.

Didn't Hortiz replace Bozeman with Linderbaum once already...?
Weren't Roman and Devlin on that staff at that time...?
Glad to hear that Roman/Devlin were able to communicate to Linderbaum... "See the guy blitzing...? Block him."

LOL! Since we both seem to truly understand the situation now... I'm heading back to the Draft Prospects or Roster Build threads...
I'll see you there...

Good luck with your Fire Roman Part 2.
BTW... whatever happen to Part 3?

Devlin was the assistant OLine Coach and Roman was fired. Whenever Devlin was the OLine Coach for a team, the OLine was never ranked in the top half of the league.

I think my biggest issue with Roman are his pass game concepts, while I don’t know details, but I know they are not creative and WRs run into each at times with mesh and crossing patterns.

I agree with you on one thing, Roman isn’t going anywhere. I would be surprised if Devlin is fired. Maybe if Bill Callahan wants to coach, Harbaugh might lean that way?

[Boltnut]

Slater was pro bowl caliber before they even walked in the building. Alt is the most natural and born to be pro bowl OT I’ve seen in a long time...

One of the hardest things to do as a leader in any organization is to recognize and then act on the conclusion that one of your top lieutenants is ok at his job...

Devlin is just incompetent. He has not improved that IOL at the detailed nuts and bolts level of their jobs in 2 years. Fire that guy yesterday, it doesn’t matter of the IOL players are below average. He is not improving them, try a different IOL coach who will try something different.

Edit: note both Slater and Alt have better pass block grades than run block. Why - because OT pass pro is the most individual talent ability. Rush blocking requires coordination with the rest of the OL, and that … requires good coaching. So the signs are even there in our two stars …

I'm glad that mostly everyone has come to recognize that Joe Alt is so valuable... I could have used some of that enthusiasm back when we drafted him. Mostly everyone was trying to convince me that Trey Pipkins was more than adequate @RT to execute Roman concepts on offense. Some even went as far as to suggest that Alt couldn't be trusted to make the switch to RT... SMH. I even suggested that Alt's proficiency at LT would add value... should Slater ever become injured...

One of the hardest things to do as a fan is to recognize their team is built in a different way from what they prefer. It's hard to accept that the leader will make choices that are different from their own. Popper is having a hard time with this... so were the Never Roman people. In the end, this is a results-driven industry. And the Harbaugh/Roman combination has turned dumpster fires into winners time after time... at the college level and the pro level. Their win/loss results are indisputable @67%. I just want to win... and largely, they've done that... even with injuries and inferior rosters.

IMO, the jury is out on Devlin. Having said that, I'd like to see what he can do with better IOL players. On the Roster Build thread and the Draft Prospects thread we've spent hours and hours agreeing that better players are need @IOL. On this thread, the need for better players seems to disappear or be glossed over.

Slater and Alt indeed came to the Chargers with pass/run greatness... that's why they were 1st round picks. Run blocking, as you note, is a coordinated effort... but so is pass blocking. And if you want to run screen plays...? Well that takes timing, selling, coordination, and reliance on your skill players also. The blocking is super nuanced if you wish to run a play-action offense (like Roman's). Sometimes, you have to look like you're run blocking... when you're really pass blocking. And vice-versa. It's nearly impossible to run when you have new combinations every week. Especially when you have guys coming from other teams and schemes (Decalus and Penning) or stepping off the street (Hart). People wonder why Salyer wasn't inserted immediately after injuries @OT... myself included. But let's face it... he had been learning guard assignments for the last 2 years under this regime. I doubt he spent much time learning tackle assignments. They swung and missed on the Decalus/Penning @OT trades. But at least they had training/understanding @OT. IMO, it was wise to wait until after the bye to switch Salyer to LT.

Alright, I'm pretty much done with this BS thread. If you want to bitch further about Roman... I'm sure you'll insert him into all of the other threads. Have fun with your campaign. Maybe you can even revive Fire Roman Part 1 and Part 3. Hell, start a Part 4 if you're inspired.

[Boltjolt]

How so? The run game has been below average both years, and the pass game is a complete joke and makes things hard on a good QB.






A JUGGERNAUT running game doesnt lead to this... CONSTANT 3rd downs

We are 47% on 3rd downs and believe it or not are averaging 4.5 YPC rushing

[Boltnut]

The coaching staff probably told the GM that they have a fix for the center position. I cannot find fault in Hortiz draft last year other than getting serious about a center replacement. We might end up paying someone $20 mil per year to play center for us...it's now more important than any other position outside of QB.

Who knows what the coaching staff told the GM... it's all a guess. If I had to guess, I'd guess the GM listens to the scouts. I'm no professional scout... but I certainly wasn't impressed with the college center prospects last draft. And outside of maybe 1 center free agent (who didn't really fit our scheme) I wasn't impressed with the free agent centers last year, either. IMO, this draft is the draft where you can find better centers. Maybe that's what Hortiz's scouts told him last year. There's nothing about Bozeman's/Jame's contracts that scream long-term. Even Becton's contract looks more short-term... with hopes tied to his 2024 production.

Now if they do nothing @IOL this off-season... I'm breaking out the torch and pitchfork!

[Boltnut]

We are 47% on 3rd downs and believe it or not are averaging 4.5 YPC rushing

The 2 go hand-in-hand. Just wait until we get our Pro Bowl OT's back next year...
Oh, and it would be nice to get our 1st round RB back, too.

[Boltnut]

To counter the pressure coming up IOL, I'm thinking at the least, dial up more rollouts, screens, swing passes and short passes to RB and TE in the flats...

You didn't like the naked bootlegs vs the Eagles...?
You didn't like the soul-crushing, game-ending run vs the Chiefs...?
You can't run them every play... but they've been run.
Rollouts, on the other hand, take good OT's that can seal the outside... we don't have that.
RB's in the flat... TE's and RB's on shorter routes... we got that. Not that anyone has noticed.

There's a little too much ball-watching going on for my tastes.