Corey Liuget

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  • Steve
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    • Jun 2013
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    #13
    A big part of it is production vs price. Liuget is the 17th highest paid interior DL. His stat sheet looks like a backup. He is a better player than that and does a lot of stuff that doesn't appear on the stat sheet, and he should get credit for that. But he is still underperforming his contract. Mebane is one of the highest paid NT types in the NFL, so we have a lot of money tied up at the DT positions (NT and 3 tech). You would think we should get some better production. We actually pay somewhat more for our DE, but the production is there at DE.

    As far as getting replacement help, it is going to depend on the price. The projections of last years 1st round picks has the 17th pick getting a 4 year, almost $12 million deal. That is a big cost saving right there. That is money that can be spent on extensions for younger players (Heyward or Trevor Williams) or bringing in FA help.

    So the question that you have to ask is do we need more production out of our DT? At the end of the season, teams were using RB and TE to chip Ingram and double teaming Bosa. We don't need JJ Watt in his prime (that would be nice though), but we need a guy who can force an offense to help out their inside blockers.

    The good thing is Phillon has OK production and costs almost nothing. He is in the last year of his rookie contract and only cost $600k, which is not that much more than a rookie min player. He had more sacks and a similar number of tackles to Liuget, but at a fraction of the cost. Their playing time was similar. Squares cost $2mill and is somewhat more productive on his stats sheet, but does get pushed around some. Tenny Palepoi is the most productive, but a lot of the production is at DE, not DT.

    Looking at the FA list, it is pretty slim.

    At 3 tech
    David Irving - Dallas - injury concern and a restricted FA, so we might have to give up a pick. Far and away the best interior DL on the FA list.
    Sheldon Richardson - Jets - Didn't do anything since he signed his last contract extension, and some of his prior production was off the edge. Just has to prove he isn't ahead case, but he will be massively expensive if he can convince anyone of that.
    Dominque Easley - Rams - Injury history
    Denico Autry - Raiders - poor run defender, but can adds some pass rush (had 5 sacks as an interior situational guy this year).

    NT

    Poe - Atlanta - run stuffer who can occasionally collapse the pocket. Not as good a run defender as his size indicates and got a lot of money for very average production . Has a history of back injuries and weight problems.
    Justin Ellis - Raiders - Played better this season, but was always out of shape and I have a hard time giving a bigger contract to guys who know what to do and won't do it.
    Bennie Logan - KC - Has an inflated opinion of himself, and is just a run stuffer, but is a good inside player and is only 28, so still in his prime.
    Jay Bromley -Giants - OK run defender with some upside and with Snacks Harrison doesn't have much of a role. Should be cheap.
    Mitch Unrein - Bears - Good, older run stuffer who adds no pass rush. We had him a couple years ago. He played some TE and FB for McCoy in Denver years ago. Cheap.
    Star Lotulelei - Panthers - OK run stuffer who occasionally adds pass rush. Lots of little nagging injuries and is not as powerful or explosive as he was coming out of Utah. Is probably going to cost too much.

    Basically, there are knocks against every FA, so it would all come down to price. The only dynamic DT in terms of being massively productive would be Irvin or Richardson, and the cost is probably too high.

    If we go draft to upgrade spots, that could work, but the catch is it would limit the ability to address other positions. We only have 7 picks, and we are probably not going to add starters after the 4th round. That means we need to either sit tight with the guys we have, or spend the draft picks and try and upgrade other spots some other way. I guess adding help via FA we can stand pat, but do it more cheaply, and lock up other key players (thinking secondary).

    Comment


    • bonehead
      bonehead commented
      Editing a comment
      Steve. Can you break down Tenny. Philon and Square skill sets. NT. Vs. 3T. ??
  • Formula 21
    The Future is Now
    • Jun 2013
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    #14
    Last edited by Formula 21; 01-12-2018, 10:40 PM.
    Now, if you excuse me, I have some Charger memories to suppress.
    The Wasted Decade is done.
    Build Back Better.

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    • blueman
      blueman commented
      Editing a comment
      I would love this, like our own Donald.
  • Steve
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    • Jun 2013
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    #15
    To make our D work the way it was designed, it actually takes one of each. The run stuffer to play NT occupies the blockers and that makes sure the 3 tech only has to beat 1 guy and can disrupt into the backfield.
    Last edited by Steve; 01-13-2018, 08:23 AM.

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    • CTrout
      Registered Charger Fan
      • Jun 2013
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      #16
      Cutting Luiget vs bringing someone else in via draft or FA. I'm not sure this is a either or situation. The team is going to be 30 some million under the cap, cutting players just for cap space (even if their overpaid) seems somewhat pointless. Unless TT plans on going bananas in FA is there really a need to create more cap space?

      I posted before I'd like to see them go after DeQuan Jones (Titans). Let him win one of those DT spots and Mebane or Luiget moves to a backup role. That's some quality depth.

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      • Steve
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        • Jun 2013
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        #17
        Whoever we have playing DT, they need to push the pocket and give our DE a chance.

        Increasingly, as I think about it, it is more about freeing up the roster space. Liuget and Mebane are just not in our future plans, IMHO. I do think we need the salary cap space, but that is more about signing out own players next year when we have a lot of FA. I don' t think there is going to be much FA help at any of our positions of need. If it does come, it would likely be in the form of a 1-year flyer type deal, which has no long-term cap implications.

        Liuget is a problem because he is not productive enough. He is OK, but we need a good DT to take advantage of all the 1 on 1 situations our 3 technique DT gets. That is the entire point of playing a 3 tech DT, is to get the 1 on 1. Phillon is the disruptive player of the two. I think we need to get someone who can push him and find out if he is worth signing to a long-term deal.

        Mabane did an OK job this year, but he wan not as good as he has been in the past, and he is at the age where undersized NT start to go downhill. He is still a great locker room guy, but we need to find a NT for the future.

        As far as moving either to a backup role, they are both being paid very good starter money and are no more productive than the players behind them. Why on earth would we pay them a ton of money to be backups? That is a salary cap disaster in the making. They got to play this season and showed that their production is not up to their salary. They got to enjoy underproducing for an entire season (a couple for Liuget). It is time to move on.

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        • Formula 21
          The Future is Now
          • Jun 2013
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          #18
          Now, if you excuse me, I have some Charger memories to suppress.
          The Wasted Decade is done.
          Build Back Better.

          Comment


          • Steve
            Steve commented
            Editing a comment
            I would take the "value" part off. He is the best DT on the team.

          • Formula 21
            Formula 21 commented
            Editing a comment
            I agree on Philon. And he’s a mid round pick that we developed. That’s what we all want to see. He came out a year early too inexperienced, but had those quick feet that gave us hope for his future.
        • Steve
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          • Jun 2013
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          #19
          DT portion of the roster is tricky. There are not many DT who are true impact players, so you have to have some depth, but some guys need to play more and some need to be rotated. And getting a rotation right is kinda tough too.

          Add in our DE position, I think it gives some flexibility that might make it easier in that we can get by with guys who aren't the ideal. McCain is only an outside speed guy off the edge, but both Ingram and Bosa do well inside (Ingram more than Bosa), so we can easily get him on the field on 3rd downs. Issac Rochelle flashes some pass rush inside at 3 tech, even though he is only capable of being a run-down DE.

          In my mind, the DL rotation looks like

          SDE - Bosa/Rochelle
          NT - 1st pick(?????)/Square - my first choice would be DaRon Payne
          3 tech - Phillon/(?????)/Palepoi - Second choice would be Maurice Hurst (he will probably be drafted way too high for us to take him)
          Leo - Ingram/McCain

          The more I watch Payne the more I like him. He has gotten a lot better over his senior year, especially late. He has always used his hands better than most college DL, but now he does a better job of staying low and using his lower body to knock guys off the ball. He is never going to be a good pass rusher, but he is an important part of the Alabama blitz packages and pass rush line, because he sets up stunts and does a good job of taking away scrambling lanes and maintaining leverage to keep the pass rushers in the game. But the lack of pass rush means we probably have a shot at him.

          Hurst will only fall to us if teams focus on irrelevant negatives. He is kinda a sloppy body type, and he is undersized at 6'2" 280lbs. He also could be more productive if Michigan didn't use him at NT some and asked him to 2 gap some. Hurst has a good bit of Jack Youngblood in him. He plays with outstanding leverage and often jacks up much bigger OL. He is a penetrating DL who people are comparing to Aaron Donald, but they just play the same position. Hurst has a much different style of play. Donald is just super quick and beats people off the snap. Hurst doesn't beat people off the snap, but he is quick enough that he is the low man and you just can't block him effectively, and then he can shed and make plays. If you watch his highlight tapes, he doesn't get any free plays. He has to beat someone, shed the block to make tackles. Most college DL get a ton of highlight film because they either just run plays down from behind or the offense forgets to block them. Hurst works for every play, even the ones he doesn't get credit for. He would make a great 3 tech for us, but could probably play NT too, even though he is pretty undersized.

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