Defense, defense, defense

[Yubaking]

Speaking of John Jenkins i remember this from last year. Its shocking at how serious some armchair GMs are. lol. For a mock they put together a team of people to make the picks. Wow. lol Not sure it can get any gayer.

http://boltblitz.com/?tag=john-jenkins

I have seen some drafts like this on the internet. The problem is that the "fake" GMs are so different from their real counterparts that these drafts often do not come close. Some of the experienced draftniks that mock whole drafts come a lot closer than 32 random dudes in my view.

And Matt Barkley, WTF is that about?! I like(d) Jenkins, of course, but he would only have been average value at #45.

[Steve]

It's worth it more if you don' have 2 DE who can be good DT in the rush line. Some teams don't have that second guy, so for them it makes sense. We have Liuget and Reyes, so it doesn't make sense for us.

Once you have the two top starters, the NT is just another guy to rotate in. You never want to have anyone on the field who can't be effective, but the amount you pay (either draft picks or salary cap space) goes down dramatically after that.

[Yubaking]

The obsession by many in the Charger world about NT is almost cult like. There is a certain percentage of people, where everything begins and ends there. I think we need a good NT, but the cult like obsession is strange. We are on the second GM since we went to the 34 and if he continues to put NT lower on the list of needs like AJ did after Jamal left, then we will know it is planned. I think Steve is dead on here about NT and our defense basically being a 42 that plays some 34 fronts. I also think with fewer power running teams in the league and heavy passing being so prevalent, that spending a ton of resources at NT isn't worth it as much unless you get a special guy. It's still important, but... Like AJ Smith said when asked why he had not fully replaced Jamal Williams, he said something to the effect of " Know where I can acquire a Jamal Williams type player at this time?". Jamal was special at NT from 2004 to 2007.

On the other side of the spectrum, I am amazed that there are Chargers fans out there that do not recognize just how important a good NT is to our defense. When we had Jamal, the defense was great and since Jamal it has not been close to what it was before. Having seen that as Chargers fans, I would think that most of us would consider NT a top priority.

[Beerman]

On the other side of the spectrum, I am amazed that there are Chargers fans out there that do not recognize just how important a good NT is to our defense. When we had Jamal, the defense was great and since Jamal it has not been close to what it was before. Having seen that as Chargers fans, I would think that most of us would consider NT a top priority.

Jamal was also an 3x All pro. They don't just grow on trees. I'm sure we all want one, but it's not as simple as just rubbing the genie bottle and one popping out.

You also conveniently forget that Jamal's best seasons also coincided with the arrival of young Merriman and Philips. It's not a coincidence. Both positions benefit from the other causing havoc.

All that said, I want it all. I know our NT only plays 50% of the snaps, but I don't really care. I will do backflips if Nix drops to us.

[Stinky Wizzleteats+]

Comoramise, draft Aaron Donald as a NT/ DE!

NEXT!

[sandiego17]

It changed due to several unexpected developments, but that's how it was at the time of the draft. And we did not and still do not have a legitimate starting NT on our roster. There is no way WR was the position of greater need at the time of last year's draft. 4 solid WRs versus 1 reserve NT. NT was the position of much greater need at the time of the draft

Not so unexpected and disagree. Brown appeared solid? Maybe based on expectations, but he was less proven than Cam Thomas. Only position that wasn't a need was QB. WR for a variety of reasons was not as deep and set as you want to make it out. When was the last time your very solid number 2 made it through a whole season?

[Panama]

I'm not a huge Vasquez fan and I'm glad he wasn't re-signed for what he got, but Clary is not an upgrade. Although some of Vasquez's problems were probably due to being in Norv's offense and paired with Clary. I'm not sure Clary is an upgrade over even the vacated spot filled by almost anyone. He's only ever serviceable at best.

The question is not Clary > Vasquez; rather, it is (Clary + Fluker) > (Vasquez + Clary).

[Panama]

On the other side of the spectrum, I am amazed that there are Chargers fans out there that do not recognize just how important a good NT is to our defense. When we had Jamal, the defense was great and since Jamal it has not been close to what it was before. Having seen that as Chargers fans, I would think that most of us would consider NT a top priority.

The point is that you need someone who can collapse the pocket in passing situations so that the QB cannot step up and the edge rushers have a better chance of disrupting the passer.

However, a lot of people (yourself included) have bought into the myth that this inside pressure must come from an NT. You cite Jamal Williams and other dominant NTs as evidence. But you conveniently ignore the fact that on about half the plays in a 3-4 D, a d-lineman comes out of the game to be replaced by a DB. You leave your best pass rushing DL in, so usually it's the NT who comes out. When our line consisted of Castillo, Olshansky, and Williams, it would have been a mistake to remove Williams and leave Olshanksy in. However, we have two very good pass-rushing DL in Liuget and Reyes, so in our D it is the NT who comes out, and Liuget becomes the equivalent of our pass-rushing NT.

It would be shortsighted to devote a high draft pick or lot of FA money for a player who would be a part-timer on our D, so if we went all-out to acquire an NT, he would have to be a better pass rusher than Reyes and we would have to be ok with benching Reyes on half the defensive snaps.

Instead, as has been stated numerous times, it makes more sense to acquire a less expensive NT who is a solid run-stopper but who we know will come out on passing down and also to let Lissemore and Geathers continue to develop. Given the personnel on our defense and our defensive philosophy, a dominant DT is just not in the cards.

[Steve]

I still think we should not give up on the NT position, just put it a lot lower on the priority list. Drafting guys in 5th, 6th, 7th round are OK, since those positions are a little hit and miss anyway. UDFA are another area we can keep going after players and see if they can develop. If nothing else, maybe they just need to plan to bring in one highly regard UDFA every year, no matter what. That doesn't devert any resources that would be better used somewhere else. And some of those players may turn out to be decent backup DE, even if they aren't good enough to be a starting NT.

The NT thing used to be the focus of the 34 D. Back in the 80's, when all but a couple of NFL teams played the 34, the thing that determined how good your D was in the rankings was how good a NT you had. But NFL teams ran the ball on over 50% of their downs. Offenses were still built around imposing your will on the other team. And as OL got bigger and bigger, you had to have the bulk to go toe to toe with people.

But the other thing that killed the 34 and almost caused it to die out was that all these 34 teams found it almost impossible to rush the QB. You had this big NT who had to rush the QB (couldn't move well enough for even a zone blitz) and he was no good at it. As I keep saying pass rushing is a team activity. The stats are awarded to individuals, but it is the whole D that needs to be part of it. If you have a Lawrence Taylor type (or better yet 2) you can still get some pressure, but 34 decided that the only way to get pressure was to put elements of the 43 into them, and these days few 34 teams look like the old 80's defenses. So even if you have a NT who can rush the QB, you pull another DL who is just a run stuffer. But the OLB are just about like a 43 DE. The 2 DL who are in the game are just like 43 DT. We play a 42 D most of the time.

It's not that 34 NT where never relevant. And for teams who are building a team and don't have pieces in place, that would be a fine strategy to find and every down NT who can rush the passer and play every down at 340 lbs like Ngata or Jamal. But there are not many guys like that so we do the best we can, and the best we can has a 1st round and 2nd round DE who slide inside to play DT.

[thelightningwill]

The point is that you need someone who can collapse the pocket in passing situations so that the QB cannot step up and the edge rushers have a better chance of disrupting the passer.

However, a lot of people (yourself included) have bought into the myth that this inside pressure must come from an NT. You cite Jamal Williams and other dominant NTs as evidence. But you conveniently ignore the fact that on about half the plays in a 3-4 D, a d-lineman comes out of the game to be replaced by a DB. You leave your best pass rushing DL in, so usually it's the NT who comes out. When our line consisted of Castillo, Olshansky, and Williams, it would have been a mistake to remove Williams and leave Olshanksy in. However, we have two very good pass-rushing DL in Liuget and Reyes, so in our D it is the NT who comes out, and Liuget becomes the equivalent of our pass-rushing NT.

It would be shortsighted to devote a high draft pick or lot of FA money for a player who would be a part-timer on our D, so if we went all-out to acquire an NT, he would have to be a better pass rusher than Reyes and we would have to be ok with benching Reyes on half the defensive snaps.

Instead, as has been stated numerous times, it makes more sense to acquire a less expensive NT who is a solid run-stopper but who we know will come out on passing down and also to let Lissemore and Geathers continue to develop. Given the personnel on our defense and our defensive philosophy, a dominant DT is just not in the cards.

Liuget and Reyes are not very good pass rushers. They have moments that make me think they might be good in the future, but, for the most part, they don't get much of a push and they don't make room for the pass rushers behind them. They are big reasons why our pass rush is so inconsistent.

[thelightningwill]

The question is not Clary > Vasquez; rather, it is (Clary + Fluker) > (Vasquez + Clary).

Wouldn't Vasquez and Fluker be better than Clary and Fluker?

[Panama]

Wouldn't Vasquez and Fluker be better than Clary and Fluker?

Would it? I am not convinced. I like Clary at OG. Couldn't stand him at OT.