Defense, defense, defense

[Panama]

Liuget and Reyes are not very good pass rushers. They have moments that make me think they might be good in the future, but, for the most part, they don't get much of a push and they don't make room for the pass rushers behind them. They are big reasons why our pass rush is so inconsistent.

They had an off year. Hmm, I wonder if it had to do with overcompensating due to the lack of edge rushers. But no, that wouldn't explain why they were suddenly more productive when Ingram returned from injury.

I think we'll have to agree to disagree on this one.

[Steve]

Wouldn't Vasquez and Fluker be better than Clary and Fluker?

Vasquez and Fluker might be the best combination, but it would have been about 2x as expensive and I don't think Vasquez really made any effort to stay, since he signed with Den literally minutes after FA started.

Also, remember that Vasquez was a very inconsistent player when he was with us. He only turned into a dominant player once he left. I agree, I think there was a lot of hope that he would have improved, but at that price, that was a bit risky.

Liuget and Reyes are not very good pass rushers. They have moments that make me think they might be good in the future, but, for the most part, they don't get much of a push and they don't make room for the pass rushers behind them. They are big reasons why our pass rush is so inconsistent.

Liuget and Reyes are very good pass rushers, they are also tremendously inconsistent pass rushers, which is what I assume you mean by not being very good. Their problem is that both of them like to shoot through gaps and try to get by cleanly, which rarely happens. They are DT, so they are just going to have to get used to scratching their way to the QB, fighting through the OL.

But the biggest issue with our pass rush is the complete lack of an outside rush. In the period after Freeney went down to Ingram, we had no outside pressure. And when those two were rushing, they didn't get any help from the other side, since they weren't on the field at the same time. If you want a consistent pass rush, you have to collapse the whole pocket. Then on any given play, when a player doesn't get past his guy, the other players around will get there.

FWIW, when you look at the best pass rushing DT, they are almost always 3 technique guys. With Reyes and Liuget, we have 2 of the better prospects at 3 technique DT in football. But they just need to step it up. But our rush line usually puts both of them in the 3 technique spots, given both a shot at being able to get after the QB.

[ArtistFormerlyKnownAsBKR]

Again, from the perspective of "at the time of the draft", it was far from clear that Allen was BPA. It depended on who you asked when compared to Jenkins.

According to whom, Yuba? You (and I) have....ZERO...insight into teams' boards. We only have the ability to see what draftniks had to say at the time of the draft. Draftniks pretend to be scouts and we pretend to be GMs. So when you make a statement like "it was far from clear" that is based on outsiders' opinions which may or may not reflect what is going on in war rooms. To you (or us) it might seem far from clear. To people in the business it might have been very clear. That having been said, the issue I have with your statements is the level of certitude. So be honest...at a minimum you're at least two levels out of the loop. Which is why most of us probably wouldn't second guess what actually happened.

Clearly, Telesco had Allen enough above Telesco that we never made it to the position of need consideration in a very close comparison. That is, Telesco must not have thought that it was very close because he completely ignored the position of much greater need at the time. There is no doubt that that is what he did, so the only curiosity I have is with respect to the two players is how he ranked Allen and Jenkins. It doesn't matter now, but it would be interesting to know.

Try chicken skins. Might be more efficient.

[ArtistFormerlyKnownAsBKR]

The question is not Clary > Vasquez; rather, it is (Clary + Fluker) > (Vasquez + Clary).

Devil's advocate: Vasquez+Fluker

Sorry, lightning was already on this LOL

[thelightningwill]

Vasquez and Fluker might be the best combination, but it would have been about 2x as expensive and I don't think Vasquez really made any effort to stay, since he signed with Den literally minutes after FA started.

Also, remember that Vasquez was a very inconsistent player when he was with us. He only turned into a dominant player once he left. I agree, I think there was a lot of hope that he would have improved, but at that price, that was a bit risky.



Liuget and Reyes are very good pass rushers, they are also tremendously inconsistent pass rushers, which is what I assume you mean by not being very good. Their problem is that both of them like to shoot through gaps and try to get by cleanly, which rarely happens. They are DT, so they are just going to have to get used to scratching their way to the QB, fighting through the OL.

But the biggest issue with our pass rush is the complete lack of an outside rush. In the period after Freeney went down to Ingram, we had no outside pressure. And when those two were rushing, they didn't get any help from the other side, since they weren't on the field at the same time. If you want a consistent pass rush, you have to collapse the whole pocket. Then on any given play, when a player doesn't get past his guy, the other players around will get there.

FWIW, when you look at the best pass rushing DT, they are almost always 3 technique guys. With Reyes and Liuget, we have 2 of the better prospects at 3 technique DT in football. But they just need to step it up. But our rush line usually puts both of them in the 3 technique spots, given both a shot at being able to get after the QB.

I don't pay much attention to the money-end of football. Maybe Clary did better than Vasquez in comparison to their salaries. No idea.

I'm not the O'line-viewing master you are, so I have no idea how involved Vasquez was in making our line shit the season before. I do know he played right next to Clary, who never seemed to do anything right at tackle.

We don't have any good pass-rushing OLBs. True. But I think, with a better defensive line, crappy pass-rushing OLBs can get to the quarterback a lot quicker than the Chargers' OLBs do. Reyes and Liuget rarely make room for them.

But maybe I'm wrong. Maybe all we need are some better outside linebackers, and Reyes and Liuget have little to do with our shitty pass rush.

To be fair, the team I compare (or, in this case, contrast) the Chargers most with is the Cardinals. (I'm not a Cardinals fan, but I accidentally see a lot of their games because I live in Arizona, and the Cardinals are always on at the bar at the same time the Chargers are). The Cardinals have the best D-line in the game. And they always seem to put pressure on the QB no matter who is playing linebacker. Shit, sometimes I wonder if they have any outside linebackers at all. The last couple years, if it wasn't some D-lineman in the QB's face, it was an inside linebacker who ran straight up that giant hole created by the d-line right through the center of the o-line. And that's something I haven't seen happen in San Diego since Jamal Williams ran the line of scrimmage.

[thelightningwill]

They had an off year. Hmm, I wonder if it had to do with overcompensating due to the lack of edge rushers. But no, that wouldn't explain why they were suddenly more productive when Ingram returned from injury.

I think we'll have to agree to disagree on this one.

Liuget and Reyes can't have an off year until they have a good year.

They certainly have potential, but, at this point, they've been too inconsistent to be considered good. Yes, each one has made great plays at some point. But they cancel that out with a bunch of plays in which they get owned.

If they were overcompensating for having shitty teammates, they didn't do a very good job of it. To be honest (and this is probably sacrilege), I thought Keiser and Lissemore were better pass rushers than Liuget and Reyes were this year.

And, yes, getting Ingram back, it seemed, made us a better team.

[Panama]

I don't pay much attention to the money-end of football. Maybe Clary did better than Vasquez in comparison to their salaries. No idea.

I'm not the O'line-viewing master you are, so I have no idea how involved Vasquez was in making our line shit the season before. I do know he played right next to Clary, who never seemed to do anything right at tackle.

We don't have any good pass-rushing OLBs. True. But I think, with a better defensive line, crappy pass-rushing OLBs can get to the quarterback a lot quicker than the Chargers' OLBs do. Reyes and Liuget rarely make room for them.

But maybe I'm wrong. Maybe all we need are some better outside linebackers, and Reyes and Liuget have little to do with our shitty pass rush.

To be fair, the team I compare (or, in this case, contrast) the Chargers most with is the Cardinals. (I'm not a Cardinals fan, but I accidentally see a lot of their games because I live in Arizona, and the Cardinals are always on at the bar at the same time the Chargers are). The Cardinals have the best D-line in the game. And they always seem to put pressure on the QB no matter who is playing linebacker. Shit, sometimes I wonder if they have any outside linebackers at all. The last couple years, if it wasn't some D-lineman in the QB's face, it was an inside linebacker who ran straight up that giant hole created by the d-line right through the center of the o-line. And that's something I haven't seen happen in San Diego since Jamal Williams ran the line of scrimmage.

I think all positions are interrelated, so if the LB is shite the DL will be and vice versa. But you can see this for yourself. Last year we had a better pass-rushing threat from OLB. Liuget had perhaps the second most dominant season of any 3-4 DL (2nd to Watt) and Reyes came on very strong in the second half of the season. This year, our OLB corps was downgraded, and Liuget and Reyes were largely invisible and ineffective for most of the season until Ingram and JJ came back from injury. That right there should tell you everything you need to know.

[Panama]

Liuget and Reyes can't have an off year until they have a good year.

Name one 3-4 DE other than Watt who had a better season than Liuget in 2012.

[thelightningwill]

Name one 3-4 DE other than Watt who had a better season than Liuget in 2012.

You'd probably know better than me because I don't watch too many games that don't involve the Chargers.
The only team I see much of outside of the Chargers is the Cardinals.
Their D-linemen push back the pocket and create holes for their linebackers on just about every 3rd-down pass play. That would be Calais Campbell and Darnell Dockett. And sometimes Dan Williams when he plays. Campbell and Dockett were better than Liuget in 2012 and 2013. Yes, Liuget probably made more sacks in 2012. But, even when the Cardinals D-linemen weren't getting near the QB themselves, they were pushing back the O'line and opening up holes for the backers to make plays (That's pretty much how I see a D-lineman's job in a 3-4 - don't make plays, but make it easy for your teammates to make plays). That's something I rarely see Liuget or Reyes do with any kind of consistency - not in 2012 or 2013. (To be fair, the Cardinals have a good nose tackle when Williams plays and the Chargers don't ever have anybody that good playing between Reyes and Liuget.)
Liuget played well at the end of 2012. He made some great plays. He also took up the first half of the year being not so good - which is kind of like how this season went. Same with Reyes.

[TTK]

According to whom, Yuba? You (and I) have....ZERO...insight into teams' boards. We only have the ability to see what draftniks had to say at the time of the draft. Draftniks pretend to be scouts and we pretend to be GMs. So when you make a statement like "it was far from clear" that is based on outsiders' opinions which may or may not reflect what is going on in war rooms. To you (or us) it might seem far from clear. To people in the business it might have been very clear. That having been said, the issue I have with your statements is the level of certitude. So be honest...at a minimum you're at least two levels out of the loop. Which is why most of us probably wouldn't second guess what actually happened.

Exactly. What a actual GM thinks and some talking head draft expert thinks are going to be two completely different things. Compare TT's draft last year to other teams and he came out pretty well so it looks like he knows what he's doing right now.

[Panama]

You'd probably know better than me because I don't watch too many games that don't involve the Chargers.
The only team I see much of outside of the Chargers is the Cardinals.
Their D-linemen push back the pocket and create holes for their linebackers on just about every 3rd-down pass play. That would be Calais Campbell and Darnell Dockett. And sometimes Dan Williams when he plays. Campbell and Dockett were better than Liuget in 2012 and 2013. Yes, Liuget probably made more sacks in 2012. But, even when the Cardinals D-linemen weren't getting near the QB themselves, they were pushing back the O'line and opening up holes for the backers to make plays (That's pretty much how I see a D-lineman's job in a 3-4 - don't make plays, but make it easy for your teammates to make plays). That's something I rarely see Liuget or Reyes do with any kind of consistency - not in 2012 or 2013. (To be fair, the Cardinals have a good nose tackle when Williams plays and the Chargers don't ever have anybody that good playing between Reyes and Liuget.)
Liuget played well at the end of 2012. He made some great plays. He also took up the first half of the year being not so good - which is kind of like how this season went. Same with Reyes.

The correct answer was "nobody." In 2012 amongst 3-4 DEs, only Watt had a better season than Liuget. He didn't just come on at the end of the year either, as Reyes did, but was dominant the entire season.

Your comment about watching only the Chargers and Cardinals explains why you thought Arizona was the 3rd best team in the league last year! The Cardinals were good, but the Saints, Panthers, maybe Packers, maybe Bears, and maybe Broncos were better.

[WindsorUK]

Vasquez and Fluker might be the best combination, but it would have been about 2x as expensive and I don't think Vasquez really made any effort to stay, since he signed with Den literally minutes after FA started.

Also, remember that Vasquez was a very inconsistent player when he was with us. He only turned into a dominant player once he left. I agree, I think there was a lot of hope that he would have improved, but at that price, that was a bit risky.



Liuget and Reyes are very good pass rushers, they are also tremendously inconsistent pass rushers, which is what I assume you mean by not being very good. Their problem is that both of them like to shoot through gaps and try to get by cleanly, which rarely happens. They are DT, so they are just going to have to get used to scratching their way to the QB, fighting through the OL.

But the biggest issue with our pass rush is the complete lack of an outside rush. In the period after Freeney went down to Ingram, we had no outside pressure. And when those two were rushing, they didn't get any help from the other side, since they weren't on the field at the same time. If you want a consistent pass rush, you have to collapse the whole pocket. Then on any given play, when a player doesn't get past his guy, the other players around will get there.

FWIW, when you look at the best pass rushing DT, they are almost always 3 technique guys. With Reyes and Liuget, we have 2 of the better prospects at 3 technique DT in football. But they just need to step it up. But our rush line usually puts both of them in the 3 technique spots, given both a shot at being able to get after the QB.

I think you're on to something there Steve.
A front 4 of Freeney, Reyes, Lieuget, and Ingram would be our best bet going forward. Draft a couple of OLB's that are strong and fast and move to a base 4-3.