Clary, why is he still here???

[MakoShark]

I thought Clary the guard was way better than Clary the tackle. Early in the season several people here kept wondering why we wouldn't run right more often. It seemed that the right side was better for running and left was better in pass protection. I think Clary is a bit overpriced, but I do consider his toughness, versatility and veteran status huge pluses. Those things considered, I'm willing to bet he has a great 2nd year at guard and will help advance Flukers maturity. Those 2 could turn into the best pair of road graters in the league. I just wish he was about 1.5 mil cheaper.

[Steve]

PFF grades most zone OG poorly. It is a systematic thing. And several other former NFL players in analysts jobs have pointed out that they don't agree with the PFF grading. I hear Chris Cooley here (outside of DC), but have heard a couple others. But most writers just point to PFF and leave it at that, as if that is the final word on the subject.

I don't disagree that Clary is a better pass blocker then run blocker. I think everyone would agree with that. But that means nothing about how effective our running game is, and or how much Clary contributes to that.

Just as an example of one of our best run blocking OT in recent memory, I would say that Roman Oben was one of the best. He got released by TB because they wanted a powerful mauler type, which he wasn't. They went with bigger more physical OL, and couldn't run at all, and eventually got Gruden fired. But he played LT for us and he was great at cutting off backside pursuit. So, we ran right a lot, but Roman's cutback lanes were money for LT. And those lanes are even more important in the zone running game. So this idea that you can tell how good a player is by looking at overall team stats, even if you infer the players alignment signals where the strength is just has little bearing on reality. It takes an entire OL working as a unit to run the ball.

[oneinchpunch]

The Bucs traded Oben because they needed the cap room. They probably wouldn't have released him.

[SDFan]

Clary didn't even play RG the whole season since he had to slide out to RT when Fluker went to LT. Do these grades take that into account and is Fluker being a rookie + OL shuffling more responsible for problems running right than just Clary?

[Panama]

What fans are scratching their heads?

Bald ones.

[Panama]

Early in the season several people here kept wondering why we wouldn't run right more often. It seemed that the right side was better for running and left was better in pass protection.

It seems most of us aren't grok what Steve keeps saying about the backside, though. Apparently, it's not that the right side of the line isn't doing a decent job in run blocking but rather that the left side isn't sealing off the backside pursuit well enough on runs to the right. And this, again as Steve has repeatedly pointed out, affects the PFF grades the right side of the OL gets because they don't* take into account assignments (like sealing off the backside) in a zone blocking scheme.

*And they can't, really, as in such a scheme no one but the players and coaches will know for sure what the assignments are.

[Steve]

The Bucs traded Oben because they needed the cap room. They probably wouldn't have released him.

The Bucs were in the middle of a very public move to become bigger and more physical on OL. They wanted him gone, and they wanted something for him. They were probably going to release him had they not traded him. They would have used him as a camp body, but they were moving away.

And that isn't the point. The point is that how you play at the point of attack is not necessarily what makes a top run blocker. Oben filled a great need by being the best backside run blocker we have had since the Fouts era, and LT had some of his best years while Oben was blocking for him, despite the fact that we ran away from him. But, as I repeated numerous times, PFF doesn't seem to recognize, although since no one really knows how they grade, we can only guess if they know what they are doing. And since the authors of PFF are British and have NEVER played football, I am not inclined to give them the benefit of the doubt.

[Yubaking]

My view of Clary remains unchanged. He is not as good as Rinehart at OG and yet his cap figure is more than 3.5 times Rinehart's cap figure. It was a bad contract when A.J. gave it to Clary and it is bad contract management by Telesco if he allows it to continue.

While I think Steve's back side seal analysis and its relationship to PFF grades is an interesting point, I also think it is inapplicable absent evidence that was why our running game to the right side was comparatively weak (which anyone watching our games should have been able to observe).

I think most of that problem running to the right was because of Clary's inability to block effectively. I will not go so far as to say that there never was a play on which a runner got pulled down from the back side, but it does not stand out in my mind as being that regular of an occurrence. What stands out in my mind is that the running lanes on the right front side were not there as often or as consistently as they were on the left front side and that that appeared to be because of Clary and not Fluker when I saw those plays.

Another factor that I observed that has not been mentioned regarding struggles running to the right that I am curious if anyone else observed is that it appeared to me that Mathews simply runs better to the left than he does to the right. He carries the ball in his left arm even when he runs to the right and looks less comfortable/fluid in running to his right. To be clear, I do not think that this is the primary reason why the team does not run as well to the right, but it is a contributing factor.

I agree with apparently everyone in the belief that Clary is a better pass blocking OG than he is a run blocking OG. At OT, I think he is both a poor run blocker and a poor pass blocker.

With Clary's contract the way that it is, I think we are wasting some money that could be used to improve us elsewhere. For as bad as Clary is on the field, he would have to be an absolute ironman or the greatest teammate ever to warrant his current contract, and while he is fairly durable and a good teammate by all accounts, he isn't that good at either or both to warrant his current salary.

[Steve]

How is it inapplicable? If the D is taking away cutback lanes, and the WHOLE POINT of zone running. Teams like to EXPLOIT the cutback lanes. How is that you think you can run at all to the right at all in zone scheme if you don't have cutback lanes? All it takes is one defender with outside leverage and you running game would stop.

The other issue, that I have not completely explored is that a great many teams at all levels of football do not run zone running plays towards a 3 technique DT. Those teams will often get to the line, and if the 3 technique DT is towards the called side, they switch to run the other direction. This is especially true of the outside zone play, but somewhat applicable to inside zone as well. Since Fluker tends to bury people, or miss them, the low average then suggests Fluker's inconsistency, and nothing about Clary at all.

I also don't see how you can isolate Clary and Reinhart, since it is pretty obvious that Reinhart is getting the contract he gets in large part because of his injuries. So, comparing their level of play and their contract amounts and then talking about their values based on level of play is mixing two different issues.

[Yubaking]

How is it inapplicable? If the D is taking away cutback lanes, and the WHOLE POINT of zone running. Teams like to EXPLOIT the cutback lanes. How is that you think you can run at all to the right at all in zone scheme if you don't have cutback lanes? All it takes is one defender with outside leverage and you running game would stop.

The other issue, that I have not completely explored is that a great many teams at all levels of football do not run zone running plays towards a 3 technique DT. Those teams will often get to the line, and if the 3 technique DT is towards the called side, they switch to run the other direction. This is especially true of the outside zone play, but somewhat applicable to inside zone as well. Since Fluker tends to bury people, or miss them, the low average then suggests Fluker's inconsistency, and nothing about Clary at all.

I also don't see how you can isolate Clary and Reinhart, since it is pretty obvious that Reinhart is getting the contract he gets in large part because of his injuries. So, comparing their level of play and their contract amounts and then talking about their values based on level of play is mixing two different issues.

You are discussing theory. I do not disagree with your theoretical analysis that defenders taking away cutback lanes can help shut down a running game. What I am saying is that in terms of actual analysis of the 2013 San Diego Chargers and the difficulties that they had in running the ball to the right, sealing the back side and creating cut back lanes did not appear to be the actual problem. The problem appeared to be that Clary, possibly because he is slow (not ideal for ZBS, right?) and at times not physical enough, was not effective in his blocking assignments. Your theory, while interesting, is irrelevant in that it does not explain what actually happened with our team's problems running to the right. At least that is not what I saw happening. The others can speak for themselves. Is that what you saw happening with our problems running to the right?

I do not think the switching of the play call based upon a DT playing 3 technique factors into the analysis we are discussing, but the play calling concept you are discussing makes sense to me.

I agree that Clary is historically more durable than Rinehart and that Clary has experience at OT (even if he is not very good there), but Rinehart is the better player at OG, which is what each player is being paid to play. I could see Clary's durability and versatility being an offset for Rinehart's superior play, but we are talking about a ratio of 3.5 times in terms of salary cap figure disparity. If Rinehart's salary is fair, then Clary is being hugely overpaid. And that's exactly what I and many others think is happening here.

[Stinky Wizzleteats+]

Please keep rebuttles to 50 words or less!

[Panama]

I also don't see how you can isolate Clary and Reinhart, since it is pretty obvious that Reinhart is getting the contract he gets in large part because of his injuries. So, comparing their level of play and their contract amounts and then talking about their values based on level of play is mixing two different issues.

The other thing missed in a Rinehart/Clary comparison is that LG is generally considered to be an easier position than RG (at least in a zone scheme), much in the way that RT is considered easier than LT. The difference in salary not only reflects Rinehart's injury history but is also commensurate with the difference in positions.