Offensive Line Discussion

[powderblueboy]

S.Tevi in drivers seat to be starting left tackle?!

He'll get this ironed out by moving to the opposite tackle position: I promise!

[Guest]

AJ started that way. He inherited a solid Butler roster, had two good drafts, and Imagined he was the most brilliant GM ever. He foolishly thought his roster was so strong that adding good players to core positions was not possible and nobody could even make the roster. So he started wasting draft picks on ridiculous players and the roster declined his last 3 years accordingly. Icarus’ wings melted and he plummeted to earth.

He never valued OL investment ever. One 2nd round or higher pick his entire stewardship if I recall (and a fine one he was until neck injury led to early retirement). Instead we got Craig Fucking Buster and Antoine WhoEverTheFuck. Jacob the Tweener not good at anything Hester anyone?

Okay, the roster was not "solid" when A.J. took over. The team had gone 14-34 from 2000-2002, not having a single winning season in those three years. The team was not solid in 2003, Smith's first year, either as it went 4-12 with that "solid Butler roster" and landed the first overall draft pick in 2004.

I definitely think A.J. had some lesser drafts, but stating that A.J. had a couple of "good drafts" does not do what he did justice. Telesco has not a had a draft close to what A.J. did in 2004--trade for Rivers (Hall of Famer in waiting), Kaeding (great except for playoffs), Hardwick (good), Phillips (very good), Michael Turner (good), plus Malcom Floyd signed as an UDFA. He also scored an extra first round draft pick out of the 2004 draft that he turned into Shawne Merriman in 2005.

Telesco has now had 8 drafts and has selected some good players, but I am not sure if we could pick 7 players from his drafts that would be better than the players I just listed. I think that list, including UDFAs, for Telesco would be--Allen, Bosa, James, Ekeler (UDFA), and 3 of Tyrell Williams, Mike Williams, Gordon and Henry.

In addition to Merriman, the 2005 draft produced Vincent Jackson and Darren Sproles. Those "couple of good drafts" are definitely more than Telesco has done through the draft and UDFA signings in his entire tenure as Chargers GM.

So as bad as Buster Davis, Antoine Cason and Larry English were, A.J. had some truly excellent drafts. And I have not even mentioned Pro Bowl players like McNeill, Mathews, Cromartie, Weddle, Ingram, Gates (UDFA), Dielman (UDFA) and Osgood (UDFA).

Regarding the OL, A.J. signed Dielman as an UDFA, drafted Hardwick, drafted McNeill, and signed Goff as a free agent. Those four combined to make up 80% of the last good OLs the Chargers have had.

[like54ninjas]

Okay, the roster was not "solid" when A.J. took over. The team had gone 14-34 from 2000-2002, not having a single winning season in those three years. The team was not solid in 2003, Smith's first year, either as it went 4-12 with that "solid Butler roster" and landed the first overall draft pick in 2004.

I definitely think A.J. had some lesser drafts, but stating that A.J. had a couple of "good drafts" does not do what he did justice. Telesco has not a had a draft close to what A.J. did in 2004--trade for Rivers (Hall of Famer in waiting), Kaeding (great except for playoffs), Hardwick (good), Phillips (very good), Michael Turner (good), plus Malcom Floyd signed as an UDFA. He also scored an extra first round draft pick out of the 2004 draft that he turned into Shawne Merriman in 2005.

Telesco has now had 8 drafts and has selected some good players, but I am not sure if we could pick 7 players from his drafts that would be better than the players I just listed. I think that list, including UDFAs, for Telesco would be--Allen, Bosa, James, Ekeler (UDFA), and 3 of Tyrell Williams, Mike Williams, Gordon and Henry.

In addition to Merriman, the 2005 draft produced Vincent Jackson and Darren Sproles. Those "couple of good drafts" are definitely more than Telesco has done through the draft and UDFA signings in his entire tenure as Chargers GM.

So as bad as Buster Davis, Antoine Cason and Larry English were, A.J. had some truly excellent drafts. And I have not even mentioned Pro Bowl players like McNeill, Mathews, Cromartie, Weddle, Ingram, Gates (UDFA), Dielman (UDFA) and Osgood (UDFA).

Regarding the OL, A.J. signed Dielman as an UDFA, drafted Hardwick, drafted McNeill, and signed Goff as a free agent. Those four combined to make up 80% of the last good OLs the Chargers have had.

A. J. was working off Butler’s prospect/player evaluations that is the reason for his early success and later complete failures.

[Guest]

A. J. was working off Butler’s prospect/player evaluations that is the reason for his early success and later complete failures.

I disagree. Butler died in April of 2003. A.J.'s first draft, the one presumably most influenced by Butler and just two weeks later, was mediocre at best. It included Sammy Davis, Drayton Florence, Terrence Kiel, Cortney Van Buren, Matt Wilhelm, Mike Scifres, Hanik Milligan, and Andrew Pinnock. Scifres was a good pick and Florence was a solid player, but the rest were not very good (though Milligan did have one very good season on special teams). In fact, A.J. did much better with UDFAs that year (Gates, Dielman, Osgood, Cooper and Cesaire) than he did with Butler's draft board.

It was not until the following draft that Smith knocked it out of the park. Of course, back in 2003, Butler would have had limited influence over how to rank the players on the team's board in 2004, would have had limited knowledge of what the team's 2004 needs would have been (such as QB with Brees completely sucking in 2003), would have had no idea of the team's draft position, and would have been no factor in the draft day fleecing of the Giants. Butler would not have significantly influenced the 2005 draft either (Merriman, Jackson, Sproles).

Similarly, Cromartie had not set foot on a college football field while Butler was alive and McNeill had only played his freshman season and was not recognized for his play until after the end of his 2004 season at Auburn. Mathews was 15 years old when Butler died. Ingram was 13. Mathews and Ingram represent a slight uptick in A.J.'s performance in his later years as GM.

I agree that A.J. produced diminishing returns for some time and that some of that was due to a decline in A.J.'s performance. Some of that was also due to the obvious--that it is generally easier to produce a better draft from an earlier draft position than it is from a much later position. A.J. did have a slight uptick in the quality of his drafts in his final three seasons 2010-2012 versus 2007-2009. That also is not consistent with John Butler being the explanation for A.J.'s weaker 2007-2009 drafts.

So I am not buying Butler as the primary explanation for A.J.'s performance. A closer look at the facts just does not support that conclusion.

But all of this gets us far removed from the OL and my view that A.J. was a huge factor in producing the last good OL's that the team has had by signing Dielman as an UDFA, drafting Hardwick and McNeill, and signing Goff as a free agent.

[Critty]

I disagree. Butler died in April of 2003. A.J.'s first draft, the one presumably most influenced by Butler and just two weeks later, was mediocre at best. It included Sammy Davis, Drayton Florence, Terrence Kiel, Cortney Van Buren, Matt Wilhelm, Mike Scifres, Hanik Milligan, and Andrew Pinnock. Scifres was a good pick and Florence was a solid player, but the rest were not very good (though Milligan did have one very good season on special teams). In fact, A.J. did much better with UDFAs that year (Gates, Dielman, Osgood, Cooper and Cesaire) than he did with Butler's draft board.

It was not until the following draft that Smith knocked it out of the park. Of course, back in 2003, Butler would have had limited influence over how to rank the players on the team's board in 2004, would have had limited knowledge of what the team's 2004 needs would have been (such as QB with Brees completely sucking in 2003), would have had no idea of the team's draft position, and would have been no factor in the draft day fleecing of the Giants. Butler would not have significantly influenced the 2005 draft either (Merriman, Jackson, Sproles).

Similarly, Cromartie had not set foot on a college football field while Butler was alive and McNeill had only played his freshman season and was not recognized for his play until after the end of his 2004 season at Auburn. Mathews was 15 years old when Butler died. Ingram was 13. Mathews and Ingram represent a slight uptick in A.J.'s performance in his later years as GM.

I agree that A.J. produced diminishing returns for some time and that some of that was due to a decline in A.J.'s performance. Some of that was also due to the obvious--that it is generally easier to produce a better draft from an earlier draft position than it is from a much later position. A.J. did have a slight uptick in the quality of his drafts in his final three seasons 2010-2012 versus 2007-2009. That also is not consistent with John Butler being the explanation for A.J.'s weaker 2007-2009 drafts.

So I am not buying Butler as the primary explanation for A.J.'s performance. A closer look at the facts just does not support that conclusion.

But all of this gets us far removed from the OL and my view that A.J. was a huge factor in producing the last good OL's that the team has had by signing Dielman as an UDFA, drafting Hardwick and McNeill, and signing Goff as a free agent.

:stirpot:

Butler drafted LT & Brees

Just because the next draft happened a certain way does not mean Butler would have leaned that direction or signed off on that Bolts presumptive consensus pick. Imo, if he was the decision maker on the subsequent draft the picks would not have been identical. By how much I dont know. But im confident it would not have been identical.

[Caslon]

Sjupposedly, the Chargers biggest question is still at blind side protection. A must wait and see situation. Two preseason games to check that out.

[like54ninjas]

Sjupposedly, the Chargers biggest question is still at blind side protection. A must wait and see situation. Two preseason games to check that out.

No preseason games this year, just TC practices against our own.

[sonorajim]

Sjupposedly, the Chargers biggest question is still at blind side protection. A must wait and see situation. Two preseason games to check that out.

Pipkins & Tillery are fairly equal question marks.

[FarAwayBoltFan]

Pipkins & Tillery are fairly equal question marks.

It might be interesting to switch it up and try Pip at DT and Jerry at OT.

[chargeroo]

From Chargers Pulse




Anthony Lynn said he'll try Forrest Lamp at left tackle, but didn't sound too serious about it. He'll likely stay as a guard: "I liked Forrest inside before he got hurt … No doubt he can be a starting guard in this league, but we will put him at (LT) just to see how he looks."

Lamp has had a higher pass block and run block grade than Dan Feeney in the last two seasons. Dan Feeney has been in the bottom 3 on the team in both categories in back to back seasons and gave up the 2nd most pressures in both seasons behind Sam Tevi in 2018 and Trent Scott last season.

Forrest Lamp was rated as one of the best offensive lineman in the draft in 2017 but has struggled to stay healthy since being drafted and as a result hasn’t received much of an opportunity to show his talents. Hoping for a healthy season in 2020
--------------------------------------------------------- m
FYI - Chargers pulse is a very good source - if you aren't using it, you should check it out

[like54ninjas]

From Chargers Pulse




Anthony Lynn said he'll try Forrest Lamp at left tackle, but didn't sound too serious about it. He'll likely stay as a guard: "I liked Forrest inside before he got hurt … No doubt he can be a starting guard in this league, but we will put him at (LT) just to see how he looks."

Lamp has had a higher pass block and run block grade than Dan Feeney in the last two seasons. Dan Feeney has been in the bottom 3 on the team in both categories in back to back seasons and gave up the 2nd most pressures in both seasons behind Sam Tevi in 2018 and Trent Scott last season.

Forrest Lamp was rated as one of the best offensive lineman in the draft in 2017 but has struggled to stay healthy since being drafted and as a result hasn’t received much of an opportunity to show his talents. Hoping for a healthy season in 2020
--------------------------------------------------------- m
FYI - Chargers pulse is a very good source - if you aren't using it, you should check it out

As Eddie Murphy once said “What have you done for me lately?”

[Formula 21]

From Chargers Pulse




Anthony Lynn said he'll try Forrest Lamp at left tackle, but didn't sound too serious about it. He'll likely stay as a guard: "I liked Forrest inside before he got hurt … No doubt he can be a starting guard in this league, but we will put him at (LT) just to see how he looks."

Lamp has had a higher pass block and run block grade than Dan Feeney in the last two seasons. Dan Feeney has been in the bottom 3 on the team in both categories in back to back seasons and gave up the 2nd most pressures in both seasons behind Sam Tevi in 2018 and Trent Scott last season.

Forrest Lamp was rated as one of the best offensive lineman in the draft in 2017 but has struggled to stay healthy since being drafted and as a result hasn’t received much of an opportunity to show his talents. Hoping for a healthy season in 2020
--------------------------------------------------------- m
FYI - Chargers pulse is a very good source - if you aren't using it, you should check it out

Read between the lines. Tevi stinks and the Bolts need to expand their options.