Grice cut dl to be added soon

[Panama]

My analysis is based on sack numbers. You may agree or disagree with that analysis, but it is objective.

Do I need to post the video again?

[Panama]

I do not think that the concept of vulture sacks is unique to this site. Also, if someone used the term before I did in the past on this forum, I do not recall seeing it. I think Steve used the term cleanup sacks and I used the term vulture sacks in the past. I may have been the original user of the term here.

In any event, whether or not I was the original user of the term, I think I am free to explain what I mean by my own use of the term, which is what I did when I commented on someone's post who was commenting on my comment involving that term.

I prefer Harpy Eagle Sacks.

[Formula 21]

I think a defender who knows where a qb is going to be in 3 seconds and sets his blocker up so that he can get to that spot at the same time as the qb should get a smart guy sack, not a vulture sack.

[onelazyfock]

I do not think that the concept of vulture sacks is unique to this site. Also, if someone used the term before I did in the past on this forum, I do not recall seeing it. I think Steve used the term cleanup sacks and I used the term vulture sacks in the past. I may have been the original user of the term here.

In any event, whether or not I was the original user of the term, I think I am free to explain what I mean by my own use of the term, which is what I did when I commented on someone's post who was commenting on my comment involving that term.

I think you missed the point. Basically, your argument was that your definition of the term vulture sack was the correct one, as if there is a commonly agreed upon definition of "vulture sack". I think both of your definitions of the term are fine, but arguing which one is proper is silly.

That being said I think both of your arguments have some validity but I don't know of any way to isolate cause.

[Yubaking]

I think you missed the point. Basically, your argument was that your definition of the term vulture sack was the correct one, as if there is a commonly agreed upon definition of "vulture sack". I think both of your definitions of the term are fine, but arguing which one is proper is silly.

That being said I think both of your arguments have some validity but I don't know of any way to isolate cause.

I think you are missing the point. There is no argument about how I am using the term and I am free to clarify that when another poster attempts to quote my post and use the term in some new way that I have never seen on this forum despite my multiple previous uses of the term in the exact same context as it was used here. As I said, as far as I know, I am the original user of the term on this forum.

And, in case anyone cares, Blueman's substantive argument about Phillips getting his sacks when Denver had a big lead and the other team was forced to pass is largely BS. Of Phillips' 10 sacks last year, 2.5 came in game situations in which Denver's opponent was forced to pass due to being behind by a large margin. 2 sacks came in games Denver lost (IND, and the second game against us). 2 sacks came against Dallas in the 51-48 game that went right down to the wire. 1.5 sacks in KC came in the first half of the game when the game's score was within one possession. One sack came in the third quarter against BAL when the score was 21-17 in favor of Denver. One sack came against us in the third quarter of the first game when we were down 28-13, but we were still running the ball and scored to get that game to 28-20 early in the 4th quarter.

If anything, given the total amount of game time in which Denver had big leads in games and the increased number of passes thrown in those situations by Denver's opponents, Phillips actually got surprisingly few sacks in those situations as a percentage of his total sacks.

[Steve]

Yuba is correct in that fact that most of Phillips sacks were not when the Donks were ahead and he was just pass rushing. However, that does not mean that Phillips got them as the result of being this explosive pass rushing force that was beating OL right and left, like his teammate Von Miller does.

I went back and watched all of Phillips sacks last year (some time ago, not recently). If you look at them, almost every one was more the result of what someone else did right or wrong than what Phillips did well. For example, in the sack against Fluker, Fluker bit on a head fake by Phillips, and just flat out missed Phillips. So, Phillips got a cheap sack that he was unblocked. But the rest of the game, Fluker largely dominated Phillips, and kept him nailed to the line of scrimmage, no pressure, no penetration. Overall, Phillips had few sacks that I felt like he earned, meaning he had one other good upfield push where he beat a blocker. For the most part he was stuck on the line, and he waited to clean up on sacks that the QB ran to him. The idea that pass rush is important is to force the QB off his mark, disrupt the throwing motion, and make the QB do something stupid. Phillps doesn't contribute to that at all. He is stuck on the line, and he gets sacks when his teammates flush the QB to him.

The other thing to note is that almost all of his decent rushes came against rookie OL or OL who were stuggleing. He got 3 sacks vs Baltimore, an OL that struggled all year. He got his next sacks against Philly's OL (their rookie RT), 2 sacks vs Dal (OL struggling), 1 sacks vs IND (OL struggling), 1 sack vs us in SD (OL not playing really well in that game), 2 vs KC (rookie RT), 1 vs us in Den (rookie RT)..... There is a trend there.

The implication being made is that based on the number of sacks Phillips got that he was an impact player who was causing offenses problems. But if you watch the games, Phillips got some nice cleanup sacks, but he was not a difference maker. In fact, he mostly got sacks vs young players or OL who had protection problems (or generally both) and just about anyone could have made those plays if the rest of the Denver DL had pushed the QB to them.

It just comes down to the fact that sacks are one of the most misleading individual stats around. They are not an individual achievement much of the time. Most of the time they are a group activity. Phillips did do a great job of finishing plays for his teammates. If you have 3 good pass rushers on a DL, Phillips is a good guy to put opposite the RT, to finish off the play. But if you think Phillips can line up opposite a decent LT, and get any pressure on the QB, and force the QB to throw the ball before he is ready, you need to go back and watch the Denver DL, because that is not something Phillips can do.

[TTK]

Yuba is correct in that fact that most of Phillips sacks were not when the Donks were ahead and he was just pass rushing. However, that does not mean that Phillips got them as the result of being this explosive pass rushing force that was beating OL right and left, like his teammate Von Miller does.

I went back and watched all of Phillips sacks last year (some time ago, not recently). If you look at them, almost every one was more the result of what someone else did right or wrong than what Phillips did well. For example, in the sack against Fluker, Fluker bit on a head fake by Phillips, and just flat out missed Phillips. So, Phillips got a cheap sack that he was unblocked. But the rest of the game, Fluker largely dominated Phillips, and kept him nailed to the line of scrimmage, no pressure, no penetration. Overall, Phillips had few sacks that I felt like he earned, meaning he had one other good upfield push where he beat a blocker. For the most part he was stuck on the line, and he waited to clean up on sacks that the QB ran to him. The idea that pass rush is important is to force the QB off his mark, disrupt the throwing motion, and make the QB do something stupid. Phillps doesn't contribute to that at all. He is stuck on the line, and he gets sacks when his teammates flush the QB to him.

The other thing to note is that almost all of his decent rushes came against rookie OL or OL who were stuggleing. He got 3 sacks vs Baltimore, an OL that struggled all year. He got his next sacks against Philly's OL (their rookie RT), 2 sacks vs Dal (OL struggling), 1 sacks vs IND (OL struggling), 1 sack vs us in SD (OL not playing really well in that game), 2 vs KC (rookie RT), 1 vs us in Den (rookie RT)..... There is a trend there.

The implication being made is that based on the number of sacks Phillips got that he was an impact player who was causing offenses problems. But if you watch the games, Phillips got some nice cleanup sacks, but he was not a difference maker. In fact, he mostly got sacks vs young players or OL who had protection problems (or generally both) and just about anyone could have made those plays if the rest of the Denver DL had pushed the QB to them.

It just comes down to the fact that sacks are one of the most misleading individual stats around. They are not an individual achievement much of the time. Most of the time they are a group activity. Phillips did do a great job of finishing plays for his teammates. If you have 3 good pass rushers on a DL, Phillips is a good guy to put opposite the RT, to finish off the play. But if you think Phillips can line up opposite a decent LT, and get any pressure on the QB, and force the QB to throw the ball before he is ready, you need to go back and watch the Denver DL, because that is not something Phillips can do.

Thanks Steve. Excellent analysis as always!

[blueman]

Shoulda amended my "definition" (lol) to included situations where the OT is too young to do anything, broken, or just plain bad. Cuz yeah, Phillips is great against those guys.

Point I was trying to make was yuba seems to love stats except when they don't count. Which we all do, except Q who's smart enough to abstain, and Steve, just plain smart.

[thelightningwill]

Yuba is correct in that fact that most of Phillips sacks were not when the Donks were ahead and he was just pass rushing. However, that does not mean that Phillips got them as the result of being this explosive pass rushing force that was beating OL right and left, like his teammate Von Miller does.

I went back and watched all of Phillips sacks last year (some time ago, not recently). If you look at them, almost every one was more the result of what someone else did right or wrong than what Phillips did well. For example, in the sack against Fluker, Fluker bit on a head fake by Phillips, and just flat out missed Phillips. So, Phillips got a cheap sack that he was unblocked. But the rest of the game, Fluker largely dominated Phillips, and kept him nailed to the line of scrimmage, no pressure, no penetration. Overall, Phillips had few sacks that I felt like he earned, meaning he had one other good upfield push where he beat a blocker. For the most part he was stuck on the line, and he waited to clean up on sacks that the QB ran to him. The idea that pass rush is important is to force the QB off his mark, disrupt the throwing motion, and make the QB do something stupid. Phillps doesn't contribute to that at all. He is stuck on the line, and he gets sacks when his teammates flush the QB to him.

The other thing to note is that almost all of his decent rushes came against rookie OL or OL who were stuggleing. He got 3 sacks vs Baltimore, an OL that struggled all year. He got his next sacks against Philly's OL (their rookie RT), 2 sacks vs Dal (OL struggling), 1 sacks vs IND (OL struggling), 1 sack vs us in SD (OL not playing really well in that game), 2 vs KC (rookie RT), 1 vs us in Den (rookie RT)..... There is a trend there.

The implication being made is that based on the number of sacks Phillips got that he was an impact player who was causing offenses problems. But if you watch the games, Phillips got some nice cleanup sacks, but he was not a difference maker. In fact, he mostly got sacks vs young players or OL who had protection problems (or generally both) and just about anyone could have made those plays if the rest of the Denver DL had pushed the QB to them.

It just comes down to the fact that sacks are one of the most misleading individual stats around. They are not an individual achievement much of the time. Most of the time they are a group activity. Phillips did do a great job of finishing plays for his teammates. If you have 3 good pass rushers on a DL, Phillips is a good guy to put opposite the RT, to finish off the play. But if you think Phillips can line up opposite a decent LT, and get any pressure on the QB, and force the QB to throw the ball before he is ready, you need to go back and watch the Denver DL, because that is not something Phillips can do.

Last year, was Shaun Phillips better than any outside linebacker who played for us? Was he better than Tourek Williams? Was he better than Reggie Walker? Was he better than Larry English? Was he better than Dwight Freeney? Was he better than Melvin Ingram? Was he better than Jarret Johnson? Was he better than Thomas Keiser?

[sandiego17]

Last year, was Shaun Phillips better than any outside linebacker who played for us? Was he better than Tourek Williams? Was he better than Reggie Walker? Was he better than Larry English? Was he better than Dwight Freeney? Was he better than Melvin Ingram? Was he better than Jarret Johnson? Was he better than Thomas Keiser?

He's just a guy who will be playing for his third team in three seasons. The last two teams he played for thought so highly of Shaun Jamal Phillips that they didn't even try to resign him despite his extremely cheap price tag. Maybe he's not as much of an impact player as some believe? Sometimes it's just time to move on, no big loss, it's not like TT let Fred Dean go for nothing. It's also interesting how teams personnel decisions are a basis to back up some arguments (Marshall/Nix) but completely ignored for others.

[thelightningwill]

He's just a guy who will be playing for his third team in three seasons. The last two teams he played for thought so highly of Shaun Jamal Phillips that they didn't even try to resign him despite his extremely cheap price tag. Maybe he's not as much of an impact player as some believe? Sometimes it's just time to move on, no big loss, it's not like TT let Fred Dean go for nothing. It's also interesting how teams personnel decisions are a basis to back up some arguments (Marshall/Nix) but completely ignored for others.

You never answered the question. Answer the question, Claire.

[Yubaking]

Yuba is correct in that fact that most of Phillips sacks were not when the Donks were ahead and he was just pass rushing. However, that does not mean that Phillips got them as the result of being this explosive pass rushing force that was beating OL right and left, like his teammate Von Miller does.

I went back and watched all of Phillips sacks last year (some time ago, not recently). If you look at them, almost every one was more the result of what someone else did right or wrong than what Phillips did well. For example, in the sack against Fluker, Fluker bit on a head fake by Phillips, and just flat out missed Phillips. So, Phillips got a cheap sack that he was unblocked. But the rest of the game, Fluker largely dominated Phillips, and kept him nailed to the line of scrimmage, no pressure, no penetration. Overall, Phillips had few sacks that I felt like he earned, meaning he had one other good upfield push where he beat a blocker. For the most part he was stuck on the line, and he waited to clean up on sacks that the QB ran to him. The idea that pass rush is important is to force the QB off his mark, disrupt the throwing motion, and make the QB do something stupid. Phillps doesn't contribute to that at all. He is stuck on the line, and he gets sacks when his teammates flush the QB to him.

The other thing to note is that almost all of his decent rushes came against rookie OL or OL who were stuggleing. He got 3 sacks vs Baltimore, an OL that struggled all year. He got his next sacks against Philly's OL (their rookie RT), 2 sacks vs Dal (OL struggling), 1 sacks vs IND (OL struggling), 1 sack vs us in SD (OL not playing really well in that game), 2 vs KC (rookie RT), 1 vs us in Den (rookie RT)..... There is a trend there.

The implication being made is that based on the number of sacks Phillips got that he was an impact player who was causing offenses problems. But if you watch the games, Phillips got some nice cleanup sacks, but he was not a difference maker. In fact, he mostly got sacks vs young players or OL who had protection problems (or generally both) and just about anyone could have made those plays if the rest of the Denver DL had pushed the QB to them.

It just comes down to the fact that sacks are one of the most misleading individual stats around. They are not an individual achievement much of the time. Most of the time they are a group activity. Phillips did do a great job of finishing plays for his teammates. If you have 3 good pass rushers on a DL, Phillips is a good guy to put opposite the RT, to finish off the play. But if you think Phillips can line up opposite a decent LT, and get any pressure on the QB, and force the QB to throw the ball before he is ready, you need to go back and watch the Denver DL, because that is not something Phillips can do.

Thank you for confirming what I have been saying all along about Phillips getting a large number of vulture sacks (or cleanup sacks as you call them). As I said, he has a knack for consistently doing that when other players have not been able to do so, which gives him real value as a pass rusher. He has been consistently good at that throughout his career, which indicates that it is not a fluke.

As I have stated repeatedly, Phillips is not an elite pass rusher, but he is clearly a consistently above average sack artist. Again, with the exception of his injury riddled outlier 2011 season, from 2005 through 2013, Phillips has averaged 9.0 sacks per season, having never posted less than 7.0 sacks in any one of those seasons. He's not great, but he is above average.

As for the remainder of your analysis, it leaves much to be desired. The struggling opponent OL argument is simply not supported by the numbers. Against BAL Phillips got 2.5 of the team's 4 sacks. (It is interesting that you stated that Phillips had 3 sacks in that game because I would have scored it that way too, but officially one of his sacks turned into an imaginary split sack.) Versus PHI he got one of 3 sacks. Versus DAL, he got 2 of 4 sacks. Versus IND he got 1 of 2 sacks. Versus us in the first game he got 1 of 4 sacks. Versus us in the second game he got 1 of 2 sacks. Versus KC he got 1.5 of 3 sacks.

In those games combined, Phillips got 10 of the 22 sacks allowed. To the extent anyone wants to argue that 22 sacks allowed in 7 games represents struggling OLs, I would note that 45% of those sacks were registered by Phillips himself (i.e., they could be deemed to be struggling not to give up sacks only because Phillips got so many of them). The 12 registered by other Broncos in those games is less than two per game. Even with Phillips' contribution they did not get more than 4 in any one game in which Phillips had a sack. That is not the picture of one team running roughshod over another's struggling OL, which is the picture that your post seems to want to create.

Also, while Phillips did have success against a later round less physically gifted rookie in the BAL game, the other rookies you are discussing were all top 11 draft picks (Fisher, Johnson and Fluker). Of course, they were learning as rookies, but they represent top NFL talent. I think it is a skewed discussion to consider them as nameless, faceless rookies.

And your discussion about the sack against Fluker shows anti-Phillips bias as well. You argue that Phillips' sacks were because of the mistakes or plays of others. But then you state that Fluker bit on a head fake by Phillips and missed him, resulting in Phillips registering an unblocked sack. Now I do not have a specific recollection of that play, but let's assume that it was just as you have described it.

Another way of stating that would be to state that Phillips beat Fluker with a head fake and sacked Rivers. A fake, swim move, spin move, hump move, bull rush and speed rush are examples of moves/techniques that pass rushers use to beat pass blockers. Now a fake that causes a complete miss suddenly doesn't count as a good move because it was Phillips that did it?! How about giving a little credit to Phillips for making a play? In the example you cited, it is not like Fluker just slipped and fell or went to block the wrong guy (missed assignment). He tried to block Phillips and got beat and nothing you said suggests anything else.

Finally, there is nothing misleading about Phillips as a sack artist. To the contrary, barring injury, you can pencil him in for 7.0 to 11.5 sacks right now if past performance is any indication. Compared to a lot of players, that is a fairly tight range of performance. At the end of the day, cleanup sacks count just as much as sacks generated by the pressure of the sacker. Phillips' value comes in the knowledge and confidence that his team can have that he is going to put up those above average numbers like he has pretty much throughout his career. He's not a Batman, but he isn't a half bad Robin.