When Does Herbert Sit? - Justin Herbert Discussion

[Charge!]

THAT was pretty damning, IMO.

Agree......

[Lone Bolt]

Wildly out of proportion? I think not.
Teams that win the turnover battle win significantly more games. Is it the only determination? No. Talent level, execution, scheme, physicality, health, and situation management are key factors as well.

Tyrod isn’t a big time playmaker for certain. He is a game manager that does well with a dynamic run game. Neither phase was great @bungals.
If AL/staff don’t think Herbert is ready to play on a week to week basis then he will sit and learn. Justin is the future and we definitely don’t need to demoralize him through a long, rough, season that he mentally may not be truly ready for.
AL has taken all the pressure off Justin in TC and now.
My guess is that Herbert will get the start this week and if he plays well in a win he’ll earn another.

Has anyone given thought of Herbert not having any indication of starting until after the coin flip might have helped him?
Justin just got to go play. He didn’t have to think. He didn’t have to anticipate all week. He didn’t have to sit for the 36 hours from when leaving Friday practice/meetings until Sunday with his mind contemplating.
He is a very cerebral dude but knowing your the starting QB has got to play mind games with you at least week 1.
Prep time, practice snaps, and being part of developing the game plan (having options set to your skillset) will of course help him on the other hand

Absolutely....I sometimes think some of the fans here believe if we start Herbert now, he is gonna improve week after week, all season long. The reality is, he is gonna learn week to week, and you mostly learn by cocking it up....there are gonna be some serious downs to go with the ups. All the more reason to allow Tyrod to lose the job before we annoint Herbert the guy. He will have enough to contend with already, without worrying if the team behind him is wondering if we benched Tyrod too early or unfairly.

A cerebral guy like Herbie will inevitably overthink it sometimes...hell, I'm pretty sure he overthought that interception. In college he runs for that first down...but he was probably thinking of impressing the coach, or making KA happy, or trying to show the world he can do more than tuck it and run.

Lynn is not far off on the fact that Herbert isn't exactly ready...big play late where he faked the handoff the wrong way is just one example...not sure the kid even knows how to slide properly, even though he runs well...could the kid play now, and play well? Possibly...but I got no problem letting him digest that game a bit, while Tyrod gets another shot.

Hey, I would like to start Justin now...I just understand Lynns position on this as well, and for now, support it...I don't think it hurts the team or Herberts development at all...it's only the third game, for crying out loud!

[Budsman]

If he wasn’t ready to play and had no prep from an nfl coaching staff and played that well, there can be no argument that he’s not ready with the proper preparation.

I fail to see how learning from mistakes is still not learning and he will make them now or later, it’s the price you pay for drafting a new QB. Or you can let him sit, and he makes the mistakes next year. Tyrod hasn’t earned anything here or anywhere else. This isn’t a HOF qb, or some big name, this is Tyrod I can’t make it anywhere I’m the best backup in the league Taylor.

I feel like some fans think that starting Taylor is somehow going to win us games. It wont, it will help us not lose games. That doesn’t work in today’s nfl. That will beat bad teams and lose to good teams. It’s a recipe for mediocrity

[wu-dai clan]

I found this thread on the Bills message board. Don't forget that Lynn was the HC and TT was the starting QB for the Bills.

https://www.twobillsdrive.com/commun...od-as-starter/

Great find, PR#1 !!
I will not go so far to say that AL
is the little one wearing the lampshade
crashing into the oven...not yet at least.

[CivilBolt]

Lone Bolt just wanted to point out that on the faked hand off, Austin Ekeler admitted during his interview that it was his mistake going the wrong way and not JH.

[Charge!]

Why does Lynn have to be a stubborn hardass? Why not leave options open and let the opponent prepare for 2 QB's.....?

[Lone Bolt]

Lone Bolt just wanted to point out that on the faked hand off, Austin Ekeler admitted during his interview that it was his mistake going the wrong way and not JH.

Huh....I stand corrected.

Civilbolt...love the handle, by the way...you should be a moderator!

[Guest]

Wildly out of proportion? I think not.
Teams that win the turnover battle win significantly more games. Is it the only determination? No. Talent level, execution, scheme, physicality, health, and situation management are key factors as well.

Tyrod isn’t a big time playmaker for certain. He is a game manager that does well with a dynamic run game. Neither phase was great @bungals.
If AL/staff don’t think Herbert is ready to play on a week to week basis then he will sit and learn. Justin is the future and we definitely don’t need to demoralize him through a long, rough, season that he mentally may not be truly ready for.
AL has taken all the pressure off Justin in TC and now.
My guess is that Herbert will get the start this week and if he plays well in a win he’ll earn another.

Has anyone given thought of Herbert not having any indication of starting until after the coin flip might have helped him?
Justin just got to go play. He didn’t have to think. He didn’t have to anticipate all week. He didn’t have to sit for the 36 hours from when leaving Friday practice/meetings until Sunday with his mind contemplating.
He is a very cerebral dude but knowing your the starting QB has got to play mind games with you at least week 1.
Prep time, practice snaps, and being part of developing the game plan (having options set to your skillset) will of course help him on the other hand

My discussion of turnovers was with respect to QB play. Lynn seems to think that turnovers and whether or not the team won are the only determinative factors. Such thinking in my view consitutues a poor analysis.

A QB can play well like Herbert did and his team can still lose and a QB can play poorly like Taylor did and his team can still win.

Simlarly, a player can make a turnover and still play better than a player that did not make a turnover--even on the same drive, much less when the whole game is taken into consideration.

Look at the Herbert INT drive on which the Chiefs took the ball at their own 5 yard line following the INT. We took the ball at our own 16 yard line. Unless Taylor leads the team to a FG or a TD on that drive, then there is almost a 100% chance that Taylor would have produced a worse result on that very drive than Herbert did.

Having referenced Taylor as running the "one, two, three, kick offense", you know where my money is on which QB would have had the better outcome on that series. And again, that is even with Herbert throwing an INT at the end of the drive. With Taylor, it is either three and out or one first down and then a punt. Barring a miraculous punt, KC is likely starting at at least its own 25 yard line.

And that analysis does not even get us to the obvious reality that one QB can turn the ball over more than another QB and yet still be a much better QB. I will take a QB that throws 6 TDs and 2 INTs over three games any day over one that throws 1 TD and 1 INT over that same span.

The question is which QB is moving the ball and putting the team in the best position to produce net points, which is how teams win. When a QB like Taylor fails to move the ball, he hurts his team by not letting the defense rest and he hurts his team by producing superior starting field position for the other team, both of which help other teams score independently of turnovers. And, of course, the failure to score points makes it very difficult to produce positive net points, again, independently of turnovers.

While turnovers do matter and I have never said anything to the contrary, a small turnover differential between two QBs can certainly be trumped by a large difference in these areas I have identified in favor of the QB that is turning the ball over slightly more often. That large difference exists between Herbert and Taylor and that large difference appears to be being ignored in its entirety by Lynn, which is not good.

[Guest]

If he wasn’t ready to play and had no prep from an nfl coaching staff and played that well, there can be no argument that he’s not ready with the proper preparation.

I fail to see how learning from mistakes is still not learning and he will make them now or later, it’s the price you pay for drafting a new QB. Or you can let him sit, and he makes the mistakes next year. Tyrod hasn’t earned anything here or anywhere else. This isn’t a HOF qb, or some big name, this is Tyrod I can’t make it anywhere I’m the best backup in the league Taylor.

I feel like some fans think that starting Taylor is somehow going to win us games. It wont, it will help us not lose games. That doesn’t work in today’s nfl. That will beat bad teams and lose to good teams. It’s a recipe for mediocrity

I would take this concept even further. Starting Taylor will not only not help us win games, it will help us lose them as it was on its way to doing against the Bengals until the referees and a kicker's leg cramp got in the way--and that was with a +2 turnover differential against the reigning worst team in the league. When one team's QB is not moving the ball very well at all, the other team gets lots of chances to overcome its mistakes.

[Guest]

Absolutely....I sometimes think some of the fans here believe if we start Herbert now, he is gonna improve week after week, all season long. The reality is, he is gonna learn week to week, and you mostly learn by cocking it up....there are gonna be some serious downs to go with the ups. All the more reason to allow Tyrod to lose the job before we annoint Herbert the guy. He will have enough to contend with already, without worrying if the team behind him is wondering if we benched Tyrod too early or unfairly.

A cerebral guy like Herbie will inevitably overthink it sometimes...hell, I'm pretty sure he overthought that interception. In college he runs for that first down...but he was probably thinking of impressing the coach, or making KA happy, or trying to show the world he can do more than tuck it and run.

Lynn is not far off on the fact that Herbert isn't exactly ready...big play late where he faked the handoff the wrong way is just one example...not sure the kid even knows how to slide properly, even though he runs well...could the kid play now, and play well? Possibly...but I got no problem letting him digest that game a bit, while Tyrod gets another shot.

Hey, I would like to start Justin now...I just understand Lynns position on this as well, and for now, support it...I don't think it hurts the team or Herberts development at all...it's only the third game, for crying out loud!

Herbert will get better over time on the whole. That is what a rookie's learning curve typically looks like. It is unlikely that he will be better every game than he was in the previous game, but the trend over time will be positive.

He is better than Taylor is right now. That difference will widen over time.

This team with Herbert has a legitimate chance to make the playoffs. We can't be giving away wins by playing Taylor at QB. Contrary to what Lynn would have us believe, Herbert gives us the best chance at winning, not Taylor. We all have seen it with our own eyes.

Herbert will make mistakes more often than Taylor will, but he will make more than enough plays that Taylor would never even sniff to more than offset that negative play difference.

And, as one poster has already noted, the play on which you are suggesting Herbert turned the wrong way was actually Ekeler's admitted mistake.

[Lyth]

A cerebral guy like Herbie will inevitably overthink it sometimes...hell, I'm pretty sure he overthought that interception. In college he runs for that first down...but he was probably thinking of impressing the coach, or making KA happy, or trying to show the world he can do more than tuck it and run.

I wonder if the INT was conditioning and a rookie's ignorance of how an NFL game would wear you down. KA was behind the defenders. It wasn't a bad decision to throw that if you could get the ball there just a split second sooner or put some more air under it and let LA run to it. That CB is also really really fast. Again, something a rookie might miss. I didn't see over thinking at all. Decisions were fast, and right almost every time.

[Velo]

Lynn already ran the best QB in Chargers history out of town. Now he's screwing over Herbert. At what point does Lynn run out of other people to blame for his poor coaching?

But hey, he's got his black QB, and that's all that matters in 2020.

Don't even go there. I would delete this if I were you.