And With The 5th Pick Of The NFL Draft Chargers Select....Discussion

[Chargers8491]

Bowers is a good prospect. But not at #5. IMV.

Joe Hortiz could do very well to put #5 pick up for trade.




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What if doesn't find a partner, then what?

[DerwinBosa]

So your prejudice against Bowers is all because of Pitts? They are very different players. Not to mention it is kind of hard to judge Pitts given that he has never had a half decent QB except for one season of Matt Ryan when he was the only rookie TE in NFL histoty to get 1000 yards except for Mike Ditka. Pitts also had the worst OC possible in Arthur Smith who didnt have a clue how to use him or Bijan bloody Robinson. He also tore his ACL to write off one of hs 3 seasons. Pitts is all of 23 years old and already has one 1000 yard season under his belt. Before you write off his career, let see Atlanta get a real QB and a more imaginative OC in Zac Robinson.

And really Pitts has nothing to do with Brock Bowers anyways. Nor do any of the TEs you listed. That was then, this is now. Many scouts who do this for a living have called Bowers the best TE prospect they have ever seen. Kelce's college career wasnt close to Bowers, how could he have possibley been considered for the first round?

Kelce as a freshman had 1 reception for 3 yard ONE. Bowers dominated as a freshman. 56 714 6
Kelce as a junior had 13 receptions for 150 yards Bowers as a sophomore 63 942 7

Kelce entire college career was 59 875 yards (less than Bowers had in one year)
Bowers career was 175 2538 26 TDs

Obviously Kelce has gone on to a HOF career. But on NFL draft day you are drafting prospects, you dont have a crystal ball to see their NFL careers. As a prospect Bowers is a far better prospect going into the draft than Kelce was.

We've been down this road several times. My point about Pitts being the only tight end in NFL history drafted in the top five is not a comparison between him and Bowers. It's a FACT that Pitts is the only tight end drafted in the top five for a reason. The position is not valued as highly as others. Atlanta thought it was getting a "generational talent" at the position. It hasn't, in spite of you being so impressed with Pitts getting 1,000 yards receiving in his 17-game rookie season compared to Ditka's 14-game rookie season in 1961--when the league wasn't throwing the ball nearly as much. Ditka also had 12 touchdown receptions in comparison to Pitts's one during his 17-game rookie season.

Kelce didn't play at Georgia. He played at Cincinnati, with much less talent around him. He wasn't playing for one of the three best coaching staffs in college football. He was also a quarterback in high school who was recruited to Cincinnati as an "athlete." Then he was suspended his entire sophomore year for partying too much, so of course Bowers is going to have superior statistics. Kelce didn't come into his own at tight end until he was a senior.

Please elaborate more on the "scouts who do this for a living have called Bowers the best TE prospect they have ever seen." NFL general managers have their staffs keeping their mouths shut this time of year. If you're referring to the Mel Kipers of the world as scouts then I think you need to change that description to professional draftniks.

[DerwinBosa]

The new thing should be drafting QBs in the last two rounds since Brady and Purdy are in SBs.

Keep reading the logic above,....just don't care. Safeties don't get drafted top 5 either.....til a special one comes around like Sean Taylor.

Again I'm all for trading down but let's just stop with Kittle was a 5th rounder BS. Again he was 1 of 5 TEs drafted in round 5 that year and the only one who is starting and producing. The other 4 or either out of the league or backups bouncing around.

The lone 4th round TE that year is out of the league after 2 years

Why are you singling out Kittle? He's one of many outstanding tight ends drafted after the first round. It's similar to running back. So many good-to-great ones fall out of the first round.

Many of us don't look at Brock Bowers as the "Sean Taylor" of tight ends. That, in addition to the fact it's not a position as valuable as others in play when you're picking that high, is why we prefer to not take him over a Joe Alt--or in my case Laiatu Latu (if he gets cleared medically).

[Chargers8491]

Many of us not in the Brock Bowers fan club on this forum (that doesn't mean we don't like him) have watched plenty of him live during Georgia's games. That's a little bit different than becoming enamored while watching a YouTube highlight of him taking a reverse 75 yards for a touchdown against a severely outmatched Kent State team--or while reading Walter Football's or Mel Kiper's latest scouting report.

Speaking for myself only I'm not in the Brock Bowers fan club because of his Youtube highlights. I'm in the fan club because I look at his body of work (production) in college and the character of the player. Youtube highlights (tape) only confirm his production numbers from college. College production is really the only thing we have to determine the probability of a players skill set to transition to the NFL. There is the combine and pro-days as well as character but the majority is college production.

The reason Bower's production numbers are so high is because he is not just a TE he is a weapon. He can line up anywhere. He can line up over tackle, slot, outside and in the backfield. This makes it difficult for defenses to defend. People see TE behind is name and say well he can't the #5 pick because that is too high for a TE. Bower's should have WP (weapon) behind his name instead of TE (Joking..kinda). He is a mismatch nightmare.

I see a lot of post that use Kittle as an example as a late rnd pick that has transitioned very well to the NFL. The reason he went and most TE's go lower rnds is because the production isn't that high based on schemes and much they are utilized. Again, because the #s are low it's not as easy to determine how well the player will transition to the NFL so it makes sense to take them in lower rnds. For comparison I've posted Kittle's and Bower's production while in college. It's not even close.

Finally, the main reason I'm on the Bowers train is I think he is a perfect fit for what the Chargers want to do on offense. He can help block in the run game and gives Herbert another weapon. I also think he is a high character guy who is physical and is the type of player that the Chargers are looking for to help change the culture of the team.

Brock Bowers College Stats, School, Draft, Gamelog, Splits | College Football at Sports-Reference.com

George Kittle College Stats, School, Draft, Gamelog, Splits | College Football at Sports-Reference.com

Kyle Pitts College Stats, School, Draft, Gamelog, Splits | College Football at Sports-Reference.com

[Boltjolt]

Why are you singling out Kittle? He's one of many outstanding tight ends drafted after the first round. It's similar to running back. So many good-to-great ones fall out of the first round.

Many of us don't look at Brock Bowers as the "Sean Taylor" of tight ends. That, in addition to the fact it's not a position as valuable as others in play when you're picking that high, is why we prefer to not take him over a Joe Alt--or in my case Laiatu Latu (if he gets cleared medically).

You guys are singling him out and keep mentioning him as we can get a good TE in the 5th round. You guys, not me.

He is an exception, not the norm as I've pointed out yet again. He wasnt very productive nor healthy in college is why he fell to the 5th.
It's why I said teams should wait to draft a QB in round 7 like Purdy.

And right, we will run 2 TE sets, have none to speak of but a TE isn't valuable. Got it!

I'm sure Harbaugh and Roman disagree

[Velo]

Why are you singling out Kittle? He's one of many outstanding tight ends drafted after the first round. It's similar to running back. So many good-to-great ones fall out of the first round.

Many of us don't look at Brock Bowers as the "Sean Taylor" of tight ends. That, in addition to the fact it's not a position as valuable as others in play when you're picking that high, is why we prefer to not take him over a Joe Alt--or in my case Laiatu Latu (if he gets cleared medically).

I'm singling him out? You guys keep mentioning him as we can get a good TE in the 5th round. You guys, not me.

He is an exception, not the norm as I've pointed out yet again.
It's why I said teams should wait to draft a QB in round 7 like Purdy.

And right, we will run 2 TE sets, have none to speak of but a TE isn't valuable. Got it!

I'm sure Harbaugh and Roman disagree

Kittle is a good example. He's maybe the best TE in the league and he was a 5th round pick. But he's not an outlier in that respect. The best TEs in the league right now for the most part were drafted later in the draft. Consider PFF's top 10 TEs in the league right now, compiled after week 12 of this season.

1. Kittle 2017 #146/5th
2. T.J. Hockenson 2019 #8/1st
3. Travis Kelce 2013 #63/3rd
4. Mark Andrews 2018 #86/3rd
5. Cole Kmet 2020 #43/2nd
6. Dallas Goedert 2018 #49/2nd
7. Jake Ferguson 2022 #129/4th
8. Dalton Schultz 2018 #137/4th
8. Dalton Kincaid 2023 #25/1st
8. Sam LaPorta 2023 #34/2nd

All of these TEs were drafted in the last seven drafts, with the exception of Kelce.

Two 1st rounders. Three 2nd rounders. Two 3rd rounders. Two 4th rounders. One 5th rounder.

The average position they were drafted was #72, which in the 2024 draft is the 8th pick in the 3rd round.

The best TE in the league, according to this list, was the the TE drafted the latest - #146. Half of them were drafted in the 3rd round or later.

Not on this list is Kyle Pitts, touted as the best TE prospect coming out of college ever in 2021, drafted at #4 overall. I don't remember the last time a TE was drafted in the top 5. Pat Freiermuth, drafted at #55 in 2021, has scored more TDs in their respective careers - both have played 44 games.

This is why many of us are reluctant to use a top 5 pick on a TE. I rest my case.

https://www.pff.com/news/nfl-ranking-the-nfls-top-10-most-valuable-tight-ends-of-the-2023-season

[Critty]

What if doesn't find a partner, then what?

Then Joe takes his BPA. Whoever that is for him.

[Boltjolt]

Kittle is a good example. He's maybe the best TE in the league and he was a 5th round pick. But he's not an outlier in that respect. The best TEs in the league right now for the most part were drafted later in the draft. Consider PFF's top 10 TEs in the league right now, compiled after week 12 of this season.

1. Kittle 2017 #146/5th
2. T.J. Hockenson 2019 #8/1st
3. Travis Kelce 2013 #63/3rd
4. Mark Andrews 2018 #86/3rd
5. Cole Kmet 2020 #43/2nd
6. Dallas Goedert 2018 #49/2nd
7. Jake Ferguson 2022 #129/4th
8. Dalton Schultz 2018 #137/4th
8. Dalton Kincaid 2023 #25/1st
8. Sam LaPorta 2023 #34/2nd

All of these TEs were drafted in the last seven drafts, with the exception of Kelce.

Two 1st rounders. Three 2nd rounders. Two 3rd rounders. Two 4th rounders. One 5th rounder.

The average position they were drafted was #72, which in the 2024 draft is the 8th pick in the 3rd round.

The best TE in the league, according to this list, was the the TE drafted the latest - #146. Half of them were drafted in the 3rd round or later.

Not on this list is Kyle Pitts, touted as the best TE prospect coming out of college ever in 2021, drafted at #4 overall. I don't remember the last time a TE was drafted in the top 5. Pat Freiermuth, drafted at #55 in 2021, has scored more TDs in their respective careers - both have played 44 games.

This is why many of us are reluctant to use a top 5 pick on a TE. I rest my case.

https://www.pff.com/news/nfl-ranking...he-2023-season

I get that.

I'm just saying Kittle is used all the time as an example,...because he is great but he is the exception as a 5th rounder.
He never played a full college season and only has 48 career catches. That's why he fell.
Hard to know who will stay healthy or not in this game.

Still, it doesn't mean it can ever happen if you pick one high.

Pitts isn't a good blocker and ended up with Arthur Smith as a HC after his 1000 yard rookie season. Smith is a running type coach and we want to trade for him here? Lol. Not a good fit here.


I am completely fine trading down and if Bowers is still there, even better but to say (not you) a TE isnt a valuable position on this team, thats ridiculous
We may draft 2 for this offense with 2 TE set formations.

Doubt we keep Stone Smart.

[sonorajim]

Kittle is a good example. He's maybe the best TE in the league and he was a 5th round pick. But he's not an outlier in that respect. The best TEs in the league right now for the most part were drafted later in the draft. Consider PFF's top 10 TEs in the league right now, compiled after week 12 of this season.

1. Kittle 2017 #146/5th
2. T.J. Hockenson 2019 #8/1st
3. Travis Kelce 2013 #63/3rd
4. Mark Andrews 2018 #86/3rd
5. Cole Kmet 2020 #43/2nd
6. Dallas Goedert 2018 #49/2nd
7. Jake Ferguson 2022 #129/4th
8. Dalton Schultz 2018 #137/4th
8. Dalton Kincaid 2023 #25/1st
8. Sam LaPorta 2023 #34/2nd

All of these TEs were drafted in the last seven drafts, with the exception of Kelce.

Two 1st rounders. Three 2nd rounders. Two 3rd rounders. Two 4th rounders. One 5th rounder.

The average position they were drafted was #72, which in the 2024 draft is the 8th pick in the 3rd round.

The best TE in the league, according to this list, was the the TE drafted the latest - #146. Half of them were drafted in the 3rd round or later.

Not on this list is Kyle Pitts, touted as the best TE prospect coming out of college ever in 2021, drafted at #4 overall. I don't remember the last time a TE was drafted in the top 5. Pat Freiermuth, drafted at #55 in 2021, has scored more TDs in their respective careers - both have played 44 games.

This is why many of us are reluctant to use a top 5 pick on a TE. I rest my case.

https://www.pff.com/news/nfl-ranking...he-2023-season

Brackets, while useful, are meaningless in any single evaluation. You're a good scout or you ain't.
Best of luck!

[Velo]

What if doesn't find a partner, then what?

Look at the draft landscape.

1. Bears - they are going to draft a QB, probably Caleb Williams
2. Commanders - they are going to draft a QB, probably Drake Maye is my guess
3. Patriots - definitely they are going to draft a QB
4. Cardinals - don't need a QB
5. Chargers - don't need a QB
6. Giants - need a QB
7. Tenn - probably not a QB, they have Levis
8. Falcons - need a QB
9. Chicago again
10. Jets - they could be in the market for a QB
11. Vikings - also could be in the market for a QB
12. Broncos - QB is top priority
13. Raiders - QB is top priority
14. Saints - QB may also be a top priority

The Seahawks (16) and Steelers (20) may also be looking for a QB in this draft.

QBs who are franchise caliber, who are top 10 worthy: 1. Williams 2. Maye 3. Jayden Daniels 4. Michael Penix 5. Bo Nix (maybe)?

The demand for franchise QBs exceeds the supply. With the exception of Nix, I think these QBs will go in the top 10. Who is the best QB after Williams/Maye? Penix or Daniels? The Raiders are said to covet Daniels. Antonio Pierce is said to be close Daniels from their AZ State days. I know inner-division trades are unusual, but Telesco does have a relationship with the Chargers, don't count out the Raiders wanting to trade up to #5 for Daniels. If the not the Raiders, the Giants, Falcons, Vikings, Saints or even the Broncos would have incentive to trade up, there could be a lot of competition for the Chargers' pick.

[Velo]

Brackets, while useful, are meaningless in any single evaluation. You're a good scout or you ain't.
Best of luck!

I don't profess to be a scout.

I'm merely documenting recent trends, and recent trends in drafting TEs are

1. The first TE drafted does not turn out to be the best TE of his class.

2. TEs who become elite NFL players are drafted, on average, in the 3rd round.

3. The most recent TE drafted in the top 5 is not even one of the 10 best TEs in the league after three seasons.

[Velo]

I'm just saying Kittle is used all the time as an example,...because he is great but he is the exception as a 5th rounder.

He is an exception for a 5th rounder. But that's not the point. The point is that half of the 10 best TEs in the league in 2023 were drafted in the 3rd round or later, and Kittle is an example of that.