Could Herbert, Burrow and Tua Tagovailoa be the best trio

[Bolt Dude]

Also Brady is not the greatest QB of all time. That title belongs to Otto Graham. 10 title games in 10 years winning 7 of the.? No one can compare.

Ahh, the days when they let quarterbacks wear #60...those were the days when men were MEN.
But don't tell that to Aaron Donald.

[like54ninjas]

CC biased, self-indulgent, factually skewed, ridiculous rants are like listening to a monotone astronomy professor drone on lecturing to a class of 300 who are mostly asleep. It is unbearable unless you do sleep through it/just record and have someone transcribe into a few useful sentences.

Otto Graham, the original O.G., is not nearly mentioned enough as a top 10 great at the QB position.

[powderblueboy]

I am not suggesting that Elway was not a good QB. However, as we have even seen in posts in this thread in which a poster has stated that Elway was a top 5 QB of all time, Elway is clearly overrated by a whole lot of people.

I do not agree with your take as to the total level of talent of the Broncos either. They had some good players, like Louis Wright, Randy Gradishar, Karl Mecklenberg, Rulon Jones, Dennis Smith, Keith Bishop, Greg Kragen, Gaston Green, Steve Atwater, Shannon Sharpe, Anthony Miller, Gary Zimmerman, Terrell Davis, Neil Smith, Tom Nalen, John Mobley, Tony Jones, Ed McCaffrey, Mark Schlereth, Bill Romanowski, and others. It was not like those teams were completely devoid of talent except Elway.

In Elway's final two seasons, I would say that Terrell Davis was easily the team's best offensive player.

Those were the cream of the Bronco crop over 16 season, not from the same team. Elway took some decent, but not special, teams to various SuperBowls,

Horse face was just a notch below the elite of the elites.

[Critty]

I am discussing what the player does, not what the team does. It is amazing that so many confuse those two concepts. So, no, I am not going to talk about team accomplishments. Average QBs like Plunkett and Eli Manning have two SB rings. Obtaining a SB ring is 100% irrelevant to how good a specifc player is, but does say that a team could win 3-4 playoff games in a row.

Since stats count regardless of when in the game they are made, I will not differentiate by quarter. I do not think it is great for a QB to have to come from behind when a better QB would have put the game away earlier.

To be clear, I compared how the two QBs did versus their peers in their own era. Rivers is better there too as well as being better by a straight comparison of stats.

I think that the running aspect of Elway's game is relevant and a fair point, but not nearly enough to offset Rivers' large passing advantage.

Like I said, Elway is overrated and Rivers is underrated.

Except you left out 3400yds and 33TDs rushing that Elway did. He did that. But of course you downgraded its impact on winning.

Never mind me. You keep on creating the criteria that supports your own opinion. And leave out what does not.

Diminish the stats you want to and uplift others. Whatever makes your case.

I think your opinion of your own opinion is massively over rated, and your opinion also vastly under rates the opinion and contributions of other TPB members.

No current GM or past GM in all of NFL history would take Rivers over Elway. That is just you out on that limb.

Good luck with that.

:smh:

[Critty]

The Greatest Football Team Ever was the 1963 Chargers. That team was guided by the Greatest Charger QB of all time. TOBIN CORNELIOUS ROTE!
And it is not even debatable. So don't even bother trying. Case Closed!

:anchorjump:

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/148994-late-charge-championship-season-at-35

[Guest]

The players you mentioned were average to good and those were with the Broncos at the end of their careers and Elway's career. Davis was a great RB. But if you are going to be honest here you know ow that the majority of his career were with terrible talent. His teams that went to the SB and were crushed were bad. He alone made them win. The problem we are having here is that most of us watched him play. You would do better with this argument with much younger people who could oy see the stats and a few old grainy highlights.

Also Brady is not the greatest QB of all time. That title belongs to Otto Graham. 10 title games in 10 years winning 7 of the.? No one can compare.

So, I literally went every other year through Elway's career and picked out players that were Pro Bowlers in seasons with Elway. That was how I generated the list of players I set forth in my earlier post and I only covered about half of Elway's seasons. The reason that I knew to do that was because I recalled from watching Elway's games over his career that he almost always had good OL players and good defensive players. His offensive skill position players were better than I had recalled as well.

I agree that his WRs were not elite, but they were not some kind of horrible, untalented players either. Miller and McCaffrey were Pro Bowlers. Elway had nine seasons with Shannon Sharpe as well. He had seasons in which Terrell Davis, a strong OL and a good defense carried the team.

Finally, since you raised Super Bowls, Elway never had a great game in a Super Bowl. He was horrible against Washington and San Francisco, bad against Green Bay (but the Broncos won despite Elway's poor game), mediocre against the Giants, and had a good game against Atlanta.

Titles are a team accomplishment, so unless I am prepared to say that Terry Bradshaw as a top 5 QB of all time or declare that Jim Plunkett and Eli Manning are top 20 QBs of all time, titles can be dismissed in their entirety when assessing the merits of players. Graham did have a high passer rating for his era, though, which is far more probative as his stats represent what he did, not what his team did.

[Guest]

Except you left out 3400yds and 33TDs rushing that Elway did. He did that. But of course you downgraded its impact on winning.

Never mind me. You keep on creating the criteria that supports your own opinion. And leave out what does not.

Diminish the stats you want to and uplift others. Whatever makes your case.

I think your opinion of your own opinion is massively over rated, and your opinion also vastly under rates the opinion and contributions of other TPB members.

No current GM or past GM in all of NFL history would take Rivers over Elway. That is just you out on that limb.

Good luck with that.

:smh:

I specifcally acknowledged that Elway's running game was a fair point, but not enough to shift the overall result which, at the end of the day, favors Rivers. The reality is that passing the ball is the main function of a QB. Rivers is a significantly better passer than Elway was. So, no, Elway's running advantage does not offset Rivers' passing advantage.

I try not to mix individual and team stats. That is an erroneous approaach to individual player analysis and is one of the biggest mistakes made by people that try to rate/rank players.

Of course, I view my own opinion as being correct because it is my opinion. My suspicion is that unless you are deliberately and knowingly talking out of your backside, you view your opinion as being correct as well.

Many times, I think other posters make good points and I like their posts or respond by noting that I agree. I just happen to disagree with your ridiculously biased anti-Rivers view, which covers many posts, so I do not agree with your takes that often.

However, I just acknowledged your legitimate point about Elway being a better runner. I think that is a fair take and completely relevant to the discussion.

If both players were entering the NFL now, I am sure that all or virtually all of the NFL GMs would take Elway over Rivers. From a physical standpoint, his ceiling was much higher than Rivers' ceiling.

Unfortunately, I think it is pretty clear that Rivers did a better job of maximizing his limited physical abilities than Elway did of maximizing his vastly superior set of physcial abilities. Honestly, if Elway were an accurate passer, he probably would have been a top 5 QB of all time. But he was never that accurate. Heck, as a rookie, he completed under 48% of his passes. His career mark of just 56.9% is just not very impressive even in his own era. Neither is his career QB rating of only 79.9 over 16 seasons. That was also not very good even in his own era. I have posted his ranking in each of his seasons and it is not all that.

Nobody would ever deny that Elway could make some absolutely amazing throws and plays. But people seem to get lost in the eye candy and not study the actual results carefully. This reality and team accomplishments erroneously being counted as individual accomplishments result in Elway being overrated.

Conversely, the bias against and disrespect for Rivers is immense. Rivers is 6th all time and moving up on 5th in passing yards and TDs. He is 10th all time in QB rating. His stats taken against his peers are better than Elway's stats taken against Elway's peers.

Elway was flashier. Rivers has been better.

[Velo]

The Greatest Football Team Ever was the 1963 Chargers. That team was guided by the Greatest Charger QB of all time. TOBIN CORNELIOUS ROTE!
And it is not even debatable. So don't even bother trying. Case Closed!

:anchorjump:

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/...p-season-at-35

roids

[Lone Bolt]

Too many people refuse to believe there's a difference between quarterbacks and passers.
Simply put, good passers put up numbers, good quarterbacks put up W's.
Whilst Elway may not have had inflated numbers, anyone who saw him play knew he was ALWAYS capable of beating you, in multiple ways. Same as Terry Bradshaw, he of the 4 SB titles.

Disagree on Bradshaw...he had an amazing team around him...before there was parity in the league with salary caps, they wandered into a talented roster that stuck together...they flat out hurt people, and there wasn't as much incentive in those days for some of their key pieces to move on...Bradshaw was good, but mostly it was the team that dominated. He was no gunslinging hero, for the most part.

[FoutsFan]

So, I literally went every other year through Elway's career and picked out players that were Pro Bowlers in seasons with Elway. That was how I generated the list of players I set forth in my earlier post and I only covered about half of Elway's seasons. The reason that I knew to do that was because I recalled from watching Elway's games over his career that he almost always had good OL players and good defensive players. His offensive skill position players were better than I had recalled as well.

I agree that his WRs were not elite, but they were not some kind of horrible, untalented players either. Miller and McCaffrey were Pro Bowlers. Elway had nine seasons with Shannon Sharpe as well. He had seasons in which Terrell Davis, a strong OL and a good defense carried the team.

Finally, since you raised Super Bowls, Elway never had a great game in a Super Bowl. He was horrible against Washington and San Francisco, bad against Green Bay (but the Broncos won despite Elway's poor game), mediocre against the Giants, and had a good game against Atlanta.

Titles are a team accomplishment, so unless I am prepared to say that Terry Bradshaw as a top 5 QB of all time or declare that Jim Plunkett and Eli Manning are top 20 QBs of all time, titles can be dismissed in their entirety when assessing the merits of players. Graham did have a high passer rating for his era, though, which is far more probative as his stats represent what he did, not what his team did.

Ok well I wi just leave it at this. When a football fans are walking out of step with you on this, it might be a good time to evaluate who is out of step with whom.

[chris9341]

Guys the topic is about Herbert, Burrow and Tua.

[Guest]

Ok well I wi just leave it at this. When a football fans are walking out of step with you on this, it might be a good time to evaluate who is out of step with whom.

I am aware of what the majority view is or would be on this subject and am very comfortable with my position.

Look, I can find people out there in droves that think that Rivers is the worst of the three 2004 QBs taken, which they base on Super Bowl wins. There are actually people on this planet that believe that that is a valid analysis even though the numbers show that Rivers is the best of the three QBs.

And, to be clear, I think the discussion involving Rivers and Elway is made more difficult by the players playing in differnt eras, the imporper use of team accomplishments, and biases against Rivers ranging from not being as athletic, to being a trash talker, to throwing the ball in a "funny" manner.

I prefer my approach of looking past those sources of bias and evaluating players on the numbers with an eye toward how each player performed in his own era versus his peers, which is, in my view, advantage Rivers. It amazes me how people do not recognize the historically significant quantity and quality of Rivers' performance over the years.