This Team's D-line Rotation Sucks

[Steve]

A lot of teams who played viewed Tillery as a 34 DE. The "PROTOTYPE" 34 DE is usually a guy who is 300lb or larger (because they will be closely aligned with the OL), is around 6'4" or taller (for leverage), and has enough speed to contain from an tight shade on the OT, while maintaining the power and quickness to be able to play inside as well. Tillery fits the physical profile. The size to play inside, the speed and flexibility to play outside. Tillery played a lot of 43 DE this season, and was moderately effective (no worse than when inside). Tillery also played NT in college, as well as DT, so he can be effective. But regardless of where he plays, he needs to play a lot better, and the move isn't going to make him a great player all by itself. Tillery is kinda clueless reading plays, and that is a problem in any D.

The catch with playing the 34 is that the players all need to learn a lot more "stuff". There are plenty of over and under shifts, so the DE will line up wide on one play, and line up inside the next. Each alignment will have it's own set of responsibilities even in the base D, some of which will depend on what other players are doing. If the WIll walks out to cover a RB who motions out of backfield, then the DE may be asked to 2 gap, instead of 1 gap. There are lots of types of blocks. A purist may say that he wants the DL to learn a different technique to take on each. A more flexible coach may "double up", willing to do a 2nd best technique executed better than a perfect technique that a player will screw up? It varies a lot.

Ultimately, schemes are schemes. It is more important for players to be fundamentally sound, and that is something we haven't been so good at, and something most of the players who have been playing the last 2 weeks are.

The big issue is that our best defensive players are James and Bosa. Bosa is a better fit for a 43, but he was fine in the Pagano (Wade Phillips) 34 his rookie year.

If Bosa is going to be used as an edge rusher, who lines up opposite him?

Nwosu has been OK, but is not the type of guy I would want to bookend opposite Bosa, regardless of scheme. he can be an effective situational rusher, and is a solid 34 OLB type (it is basically the position he has been playing), but is more of a drop DE than a effective every down rush guy.

Joesph can be a OK NT. After that we are a little short on DL.

We are also pretty weak at LB. Murray flashed ability, and Tranquil played OK as a rookie, but the only other ILB who has shown anything is Perryman and Vigil, who is a a fine backup and ST guy, but a poor starter.

James can play in any secondary if he is healthy. Right now most of the rest of the secondary is mostly zone guys, so that will limit things.

We need a guy who can either teach the guys we have and develop them better than the last staff or can bring in new players and develop them quickly. Either way, there are a lot of holes and only 8 draft picks to fill them (only the top couple of picks really having a chance to do it immediately).

[jaguarmanftype]

A lot of teams who played viewed Tillery as a 34 DE. The "PROTOTYPE" 34 DE is usually a guy who is 300lb or larger (because they will be closely aligned with the OL), is around 6'4" or taller (for leverage), and has enough speed to contain from an tight shade on the OT, while maintaining the power and quickness to be able to play inside as well. Tillery fits the physical profile. The size to play inside, the speed and flexibility to play outside. Tillery played a lot of 43 DE this season, and was moderately effective (no worse than when inside). Tillery also played NT in college, as well as DT, so he can be effective. But regardless of where he plays, he needs to play a lot better, and the move isn't going to make him a great player all by itself. Tillery is kinda clueless reading plays, and that is a problem in any D.

The catch with playing the 34 is that the players all need to learn a lot more "stuff". There are plenty of over and under shifts, so the DE will line up wide on one play, and line up inside the next. Each alignment will have it's own set of responsibilities even in the base D, some of which will depend on what other players are doing. If the WIll walks out to cover a RB who motions out of backfield, then the DE may be asked to 2 gap, instead of 1 gap. There are lots of types of blocks. A purist may say that he wants the DL to learn a different technique to take on each. A more flexible coach may "double up", willing to do a 2nd best technique executed better than a perfect technique that a player will screw up? It varies a lot.

Ultimately, schemes are schemes. It is more important for players to be fundamentally sound, and that is something we haven't been so good at, and something most of the players who have been playing the last 2 weeks are.

The big issue is that our best defensive players are James and Bosa. Bosa is a better fit for a 43, but he was fine in the Pagano (Wade Phillips) 34 his rookie year.

If Bosa is going to be used as an edge rusher, who lines up opposite him?

Nwosu has been OK, but is not the type of guy I would want to bookend opposite Bosa, regardless of scheme. he can be an effective situational rusher, and is a solid 34 OLB type (it is basically the position he has been playing), but is more of a drop DE than a effective every down rush guy.

Joesph can be a OK NT. After that we are a little short on DL.

We are also pretty weak at LB. Murray flashed ability, and Tranquil played OK as a rookie, but the only other ILB who has shown anything is Perryman and Vigil, who is a a fine backup and ST guy, but a poor starter.

James can play in any secondary if he is healthy. Right now most of the rest of the secondary is mostly zone guys, so that will limit things.

We need a guy who can either teach the guys we have and develop them better than the last staff or can bring in new players and develop them quickly. Either way, there are a lot of holes and only 8 draft picks to fill them (only the top couple of picks really having a chance to do it immediately).

I think we'll find that Staley will adapt to his players, and ask for their input, and not peg them into any fixed positions. Jalen Ramsey supposedly asked to play in the slot at times this year, and he had some snaps there.

As I see it, Tillery will be coached up to play well this upcoming year, I just feel that intuitively, and Staley may try him out in an Aaron Donald-type role, even though he doesn't have the exact measurables, but I think he takes a leap. I think they may keep Ingram at a discount, but we'll see.

[Steve]

No, I agree. This is a big season for Tillery, since his contract is coming up in 2 more season. He has to get his ass in gear. That is just a true for a lot of our players, offense and defense. Staley is supposed to be flexible in how he motivates guys. He can be a yeller, a quite word on the sideline, a call it out in front of the team, ... he adapts his approach to what is needed, although I think there are a fair number of guys in the NFL who can do that.

I think too many people are focused on him as an X&O's thing. That is so overrated. Remember that most solid college coaches can talk about any play in their playbook for about 15 minutes. GO over the assignments, the key coaching points, what defenses want to do ... And by the time they get to the NFL, these guys can all do that with several hundred plays. Even if they don't run it themselves, other teams will, so you have talked it through with other coaches. And by the time you get to the NFL, you have to know both sides of the ball, just to understand what the other side is thinking and how they will attack you.

I think Staley's big advantage is that he is more than just an X&O's guy. Not only can he put in a flexible scheme, he can teach it well enough to get through to his guys quickly and efficiently (big playbook in the NFL), and still have time to really drill them on technique. The Rams were not a great D because of the scheme. It was fine, but everything Staley did was done before by someone else before (it's all been done before). But he did so in a way that everyone could do that, and execute their techniques at a high level. They didn't give up any cheap stuff (hardly any), and they contested a lot of throws and runs. They weren't perfect, but they were far closer to perfect than anyone else. That is what Staley brings, execution and "enough" multiplicity. He has enough answers that teams could try some stuff he hadn't seen on film and he could adjust and have answers.

Where Bradley and company failed is that we ran a very simple scheme. Simple is good, because it makes sure that everyone should be able to learn the assignments and there should be no breakdowns? BUt we had a lot of breakdowns. Missed tackles, not getting off of blocks, timid or completely blown coverages. Players have to go out, and play after play, execute at a high level. Be where you are supposed to be, play the technique (or a technique) do it well, and then if everyone does that, one guy will be in a position to make a play (remembering the other team is trying to do the same). Does that describe our D very well.

I give Gus high marks for guys getting lined up right. A low bar, but a good starting point.

Then the technique thing, not very good. We get pretty low marks for the execution part, which again is part of why you play a simple scheme. And that limits everything after that. You can't start calling more and more stuff, if you can't execute the simple calls. They were hesitant, not confident and "thinking", which is pretty much the opposite of what they were going for in the 1st place. If the whole philosophy of the D used to work (good D the 1st 3 years), and then is not working, then maybe you needed to take a look at what was being done. And that is why Staley is in.

[jaguarmanftype]

No, I agree. This is a big season for Tillery, since his contract is coming up in 2 more season. He has to get his ass in gear. That is just a true for a lot of our players, offense and defense. Staley is supposed to be flexible in how he motivates guys. He can be a yeller, a quite word on the sideline, a call it out in front of the team, ... he adapts his approach to what is needed, although I think there are a fair number of guys in the NFL who can do that.

I think too many people are focused on him as an X&O's thing. That is so overrated. Remember that most solid college coaches can talk about any play in their playbook for about 15 minutes. GO over the assignments, the key coaching points, what defenses want to do ... And by the time they get to the NFL, these guys can all do that with several hundred plays. Even if they don't run it themselves, other teams will, so you have talked it through with other coaches. And by the time you get to the NFL, you have to know both sides of the ball, just to understand what the other side is thinking and how they will attack you.

I think Staley's big advantage is that he is more than just an X&O's guy. Not only can he put in a flexible scheme, he can teach it well enough to get through to his guys quickly and efficiently (big playbook in the NFL), and still have time to really drill them on technique. The Rams were not a great D because of the scheme. It was fine, but everything Staley did was done before by someone else before (it's all been done before). But he did so in a way that everyone could do that, and execute their techniques at a high level. They didn't give up any cheap stuff (hardly any), and they contested a lot of throws and runs. They weren't perfect, but they were far closer to perfect than anyone else. That is what Staley brings, execution and "enough" multiplicity. He has enough answers that teams could try some stuff he hadn't seen on film and he could adjust and have answers.

Where Bradley and company failed is that we ran a very simple scheme. Simple is good, because it makes sure that everyone should be able to learn the assignments and there should be no breakdowns? BUt we had a lot of breakdowns. Missed tackles, not getting off of blocks, timid or completely blown coverages. Players have to go out, and play after play, execute at a high level. Be where you are supposed to be, play the technique (or a technique) do it well, and then if everyone does that, one guy will be in a position to make a play (remembering the other team is trying to do the same). Does that describe our D very well.

I give Gus high marks for guys getting lined up right. A low bar, but a good starting point.

Then the technique thing, not very good. We get pretty low marks for the execution part, which again is part of why you play a simple scheme. And that limits everything after that. You can't start calling more and more stuff, if you can't execute the simple calls. They were hesitant, not confident and "thinking", which is pretty much the opposite of what they were going for in the 1st place. If the whole philosophy of the D used to work (good D the 1st 3 years), and then is not working, then maybe you needed to take a look at what was being done. And that is why Staley is in.

I enjoyed this read. I think the most visible and likely first improvement overall will be technique and positioning on the defense. As a result, we may see substantially improved tackling, and less players taking poor form or being out of position to execute and/or assist. Quite frankly, I'm tired of seeing 5 defenders trying to tackle a rusher, or a wideout.

[AK47]

No, I agree. This is a big season for Tillery, since his contract is coming up in 2 more season. He has to get his ass in gear.

3-4 Base Defense?:

Tillery kid is so young. Lets see if we can still coach him up. At his progression, 30 tackles, 4 sacks, 2 forced fumbles, and 2 pass deflections is very very realistic in 2021 which is similar output with Michael Brockers. I want him to get to 302lbs and add some bulk. He is intelligent, seems to be coachable, and has got length.

Bosa: I wish he changes up is cardio regimen. Imagine a lean 272lb-ish Bosa. He'd have a very dangerous 1st step and the change of direction would literally be 2nd to none. No joke.

Linval: He's got the vet experience and size to be a serviceable 34NT. I think? Def need depth in this department though. Fortunately not everyone is clamoring over 340lb NTs. Scout team get to work!!!

Derwin: Just maintain your damn 8-pack abs and not get injured okay kid lol? Dude would be a terror in a 3-4 because QBs don't know where pressure is coming from and DW has elite QB hurry percentage ratio per attempt. Think he's gonna pass rush so you make adjustments? Okay he'll shut down your TE or Slot WR then.

Ingram: His market price should be cheaper. A tad too small in frame to use as a 3-4OLB full time. If he had 2 inches longer arms would've been the ideal 34OLB. Drop back, run support, pass rushing. Damn if we do go 3-4 even 40% of the time we actually need a guy like Ingram.

Kenneth Murray: Actually has good 3-4 OLB measurables so if we want to get creative in pass rushing he's another piece. That sideline-to-sideline game speed is slowly improving. He could replace Ingram at 34OLB from a measurables aspect. 6-3 frame, long arms, and 4.52 40-time....but lacking in bulk.

Draft: Man I think we need a CB. Can we get a shutdown CB at #13? Could also use a OLB but with no Combine and using a #13 pick I'm very hesitant. I'm about the 3-cone WALDO formula. Pro Day numbers will only skew data.


Rochelle and Emeke are too small up front in a 3-4.

[Boltjolt]

3-4 Base Defense?:

Tillery kid is so young. Lets see if we can still coach him up. At his progression, 30 tackles, 4 sacks, 2 forced fumbles, and 2 pass deflections is very very realistic in 2021 which is similar output with Michael Brockers. I want him to get to 302lbs and add some bulk. He is intelligent, seems to be coachable, and has got length.

Bosa: I wish he changes up is cardio regimen. Imagine a lean 272lb-ish Bosa. He'd have a very dangerous 1st step and the change of direction would literally be 2nd to none. No joke.

Linval: He's got the vet experience and size to be a serviceable 34NT. I think? Def need depth in this department though. Fortunately not everyone is clamoring over 340lb NTs. Scout team get to work!!!

Derwin: Just maintain your damn 8-pack abs and not get injured okay kid lol? Dude would be a terror in a 3-4 because QBs don't know where pressure is coming from and DW has elite QB hurry percentage ratio per attempt. Think he's gonna pass rush so you make adjustments? Okay he'll shut down your TE or Slot WR then.

Ingram: His market price should be cheaper. A tad too small in frame to use as a 3-4OLB full time. If he had 2 inches longer arms would've been the ideal 34OLB. Drop back, run support, pass rushing. Damn if we do go 3-4 even 40% of the time we actually need a guy like Ingram.

Kenneth Murray: Actually has good 3-4 OLB measurables so if we want to get creative in pass rushing he's another piece. That sideline-to-sideline game speed is slowly improving. He could replace Ingram at 34OLB from a measurables aspect. 6-3 frame, long arms, and 4.52 40-time....but lacking in bulk.

Draft: Man I think we need a CB. Can we get a shutdown CB at #13? Could also use a OLB but with no Combine and using a #13 pick I'm very hesitant. I'm about the 3-cone WALDO formula. Pro Day numbers will only skew data.


Rochelle and Emeke are too small up front in a 3-4.

I think you are pretty far off thinking this is going to be a traditional base 3-4. I think its gonna change a lot and we will have multiple looks. Ingram isnt to small to play OLB in a 3-4 and he probably isnt coming back anyways. I dont want him him back.

[FoutsFan]

3-4 Base Defense?:

Tillery kid is so young. Lets see if we can still coach him up. At his progression, 30 tackles, 4 sacks, 2 forced fumbles, and 2 pass deflections is very very realistic in 2021 which is similar output with Michael Brockers. I want him to get to 302lbs and add some bulk. He is intelligent, seems to be coachable, and has got length.

Bosa: I wish he changes up is cardio regimen. Imagine a lean 272lb-ish Bosa. He'd have a very dangerous 1st step and the change of direction would literally be 2nd to none. No joke.

Linval: He's got the vet experience and size to be a serviceable 34NT. I think? Def need depth in this department though. Fortunately not everyone is clamoring over 340lb NTs. Scout team get to work!!!

Derwin: Just maintain your damn 8-pack abs and not get injured okay kid lol? Dude would be a terror in a 3-4 because QBs don't know where pressure is coming from and DW has elite QB hurry percentage ratio per attempt. Think he's gonna pass rush so you make adjustments? Okay he'll shut down your TE or Slot WR then.

Ingram: His market price should be cheaper. A tad too small in frame to use as a 3-4OLB full time. If he had 2 inches longer arms would've been the ideal 34OLB. Drop back, run support, pass rushing. Damn if we do go 3-4 even 40% of the time we actually need a guy like Ingram.

Kenneth Murray: Actually has good 3-4 OLB measurables so if we want to get creative in pass rushing he's another piece. That sideline-to-sideline game speed is slowly improving. He could replace Ingram at 34OLB from a measurables aspect. 6-3 frame, long arms, and 4.52 40-time....but lacking in bulk.

Draft: Man I think we need a CB. Can we get a shutdown CB at #13? Could also use a OLB but with no Combine and using a #13 pick I'm very hesitant. I'm about the 3-cone WALDO formula. Pro Day numbers will only skew data.


Rochelle and Emeke are too small up front in a 3-4.

Noooooooo! Not the T-rex arm argument. That short arm thing was mocked and derided long ago as an online joke, a meme so to speak.

Seriously 2" means nothing. Now if he did not have fingers that would be something.

[FoutsFan]

I think you are pretty far off thinking this is going to be a traditional base 3-4. I think its gonna change a lot and we will have multiple looks. Ingram isnt to small to play OLB in a 3-4 and he probably isnt coming back anyways. I dont want him him back.

Nobody runs a strict 3-4 alignment anymore. With all the players being hybrid types they can all put there hands on the ground or stand up, teams have so many defensive looks now a days.

[jaguarmanftype]

3-4 Base Defense?:

Tillery kid is so young. Lets see if we can still coach him up. At his progression, 30 tackles, 4 sacks, 2 forced fumbles, and 2 pass deflections is very very realistic in 2021 which is similar output with Michael Brockers. I want him to get to 302lbs and add some bulk. He is intelligent, seems to be coachable, and has got length.

Bosa: I wish he changes up is cardio regimen. Imagine a lean 272lb-ish Bosa. He'd have a very dangerous 1st step and the change of direction would literally be 2nd to none. No joke.

Linval: He's got the vet experience and size to be a serviceable 34NT. I think? Def need depth in this department though. Fortunately not everyone is clamoring over 340lb NTs. Scout team get to work!!!

Derwin: Just maintain your damn 8-pack abs and not get injured okay kid lol? Dude would be a terror in a 3-4 because QBs don't know where pressure is coming from and DW has elite QB hurry percentage ratio per attempt. Think he's gonna pass rush so you make adjustments? Okay he'll shut down your TE or Slot WR then.

Ingram: His market price should be cheaper. A tad too small in frame to use as a 3-4OLB full time. If he had 2 inches longer arms would've been the ideal 34OLB. Drop back, run support, pass rushing. Damn if we do go 3-4 even 40% of the time we actually need a guy like Ingram.

Kenneth Murray: Actually has good 3-4 OLB measurables so if we want to get creative in pass rushing he's another piece. That sideline-to-sideline game speed is slowly improving. He could replace Ingram at 34OLB from a measurables aspect. 6-3 frame, long arms, and 4.52 40-time....but lacking in bulk.

Draft: Man I think we need a CB. Can we get a shutdown CB at #13? Could also use a OLB but with no Combine and using a #13 pick I'm very hesitant. I'm about the 3-cone WALDO formula. Pro Day numbers will only skew data.


Rochelle and Emeke are too small up front in a 3-4.

Just to comment on Tillery, but I hate to point out those are very similar numbers to what he had this year: 30 tackles, 3 sacks, 2 PD, 2 FF all in 11 games started, so not sure it's much progression. I was high on him through half of the season, I'm not sure what happened as it progressed. My only assumption that would explain the dropoff would be the team losing close games with murmurings and grumblings within the team about Bradley and overall coaching, but that's anecdotal based on what we heard from King and Ingram.

[wu-dai clan]

Tillery and JJones were drafted specifically for gusD as penetrating one gap 3TECHs.

Remember how bad we were at run defense this year ?

Dudes cannot anchor/disengage.

There is a strong need for at least one DL w/4i traits.

The good news is that this can happen in mid or even late rounds.

[Steve]

3-4 Base Defense?:

Tillery kid is so young. Lets see if we can still coach him up. At his progression, 30 tackles, 4 sacks, 2 forced fumbles, and 2 pass deflections is very very realistic in 2021 which is similar output with Michael Brockers. I want him to get to 302lbs and add some bulk. He is intelligent, seems to be coachable, and has got length.

Bosa: I wish he changes up is cardio regimen. Imagine a lean 272lb-ish Bosa. He'd have a very dangerous 1st step and the change of direction would literally be 2nd to none. No joke.

Linval: He's got the vet experience and size to be a serviceable 34NT. I think? Def need depth in this department though. Fortunately not everyone is clamoring over 340lb NTs. Scout team get to work!!!

Derwin: Just maintain your damn 8-pack abs and not get injured okay kid lol? Dude would be a terror in a 3-4 because QBs don't know where pressure is coming from and DW has elite QB hurry percentage ratio per attempt. Think he's gonna pass rush so you make adjustments? Okay he'll shut down your TE or Slot WR then.

Ingram: His market price should be cheaper. A tad too small in frame to use as a 3-4OLB full time. If he had 2 inches longer arms would've been the ideal 34OLB. Drop back, run support, pass rushing. Damn if we do go 3-4 even 40% of the time we actually need a guy like Ingram.

Kenneth Murray: Actually has good 3-4 OLB measurables so if we want to get creative in pass rushing he's another piece. That sideline-to-sideline game speed is slowly improving. He could replace Ingram at 34OLB from a measurables aspect. 6-3 frame, long arms, and 4.52 40-time....but lacking in bulk.

Draft: Man I think we need a CB. Can we get a shutdown CB at #13? Could also use a OLB but with no Combine and using a #13 pick I'm very hesitant. I'm about the 3-cone WALDO formula. Pro Day numbers will only skew data.


Rochelle and Emeke are too small up front in a 3-4.

No team is playing 340 lb NT anymore. Since NFL offenses are 11 personnel so much, you are just putting a guy on the field who can't get after the QB. And if they can, then they are going to be getting #20 mill+ per season. And Joesph is pretty big and immobile.

Ingram has been a 34 OLB before and was fine. Plenty of 34 OLB are shorter in height, so everyone can forget the long arms only bullshit. James Harrison was several inches shorter than Ingram.

Murray is a good blitzer but has never been used as a pass rusher. No experience and no skill set to fall back on. People are dreaming because they have no idea what to look for. We need a real OLB, not pipe dreams. Murray is a ILB type who can blitz, but that is it.

We need help everywhere> CB is one of the spots, especially if we release Hayward to save money.

If you can't tell who is going where based on how they play, you are going to fuck up your draft. Who cares what guys run in their underwear? Watch them play, there is plenty of that on youtube.

[Boltjolt]

No team is playing 340 lb NT anymore. Since NFL offenses are 11 personnel so much, you are just putting a guy on the field who can't get after the QB. And if they can, then they are going to be getting #20 mill+ per season. And Joesph is pretty big and immobile.

Ingram has been a 34 OLB before and was fine. Plenty of 34 OLB are shorter in height, so everyone can forget the long arms only bullshit. James Harrison was several inches shorter than Ingram.

Murray is a good blitzer but has never been used as a pass rusher. No experience and no skill set to fall back on. People are dreaming because they have no idea what to look for. We need a real OLB, not pipe dreams. Murray is a ILB type who can blitz, but that is it.

We need help everywhere> CB is one of the spots, especially if we release Hayward to save money.

If you can't tell who is going where based on how they play, you are going to fuck up your draft. Who cares what guys run in their underwear? Watch them play, there is plenty of that on youtube.

I don't see Murray playing OLB either. I think if we keep Perryman, he and Murray are a good ILB combo though neither offer much in coverage so you can rotate in Tranquil. But who knows if we even re sign Perryman.
How much we actually play the 3-4 is another guess.