This Team's D-line Rotation Sucks

[Boltjolt]

I meant the OLBs aren't taking on the OL

Right, the DEs are in a 3-4.
I don't want us to switch though.

[like54ninjas]

davlin tomlinson get him

He is on my roster build.

FA TARGETS
Dalvin Tomlinson (DT) - 5yr - ($55M)/$30G/$20SB/$7CH
Ted Karras (OC) - 4yr - ($36M)/$21G/$14SB/$6CH
Darqueze Dennard (CB) - 2yr - ($10M)/$6G/$4SB/$3.5CH
Fabian Moreau (CB) - 2yr - ($7M)/$3G/$3SB/$3CH

[Attack]

He is on my roster build.

FA TARGETS
Dalvin Tomlinson (DT) - 5yr - ($55M)/$30G/$20SB/$7CH
Ted Karras (OC) - 4yr - ($36M)/$21G/$14SB/$6CH
Darqueze Dennard (CB) - 2yr - ($10M)/$6G/$4SB/$3.5CH
Fabian Moreau (CB) - 2yr - ($7M)/$3G/$3SB/$3CH

Take away some dough from Karras and add it to Tomlinson, and ok. Sounds like a lot there for Karras, and on the light side for Tomlinson. Karras is making $3M this yr on a 1 yr deal.

[like54ninjas]

Take away some dough from Karras and add it to Tomlinson, and ok. Sounds like a lot there for Karras, and on the light side for Tomlinson. Karras is making $3M this yr on a 1 yr deal.

I’ll go with my researched contract amounts.

You think an ascending NT/DT is going to command more than $11 million APY?
This will be a 2021 season that has a reduced salary cap creating cuts of many veteran players and smaller overall contract amounts.

Karras as a top 3 FA OC will garner offers.
2 year starter, ascending, fairly young, good movement skills and possesses power @POA to create movement (which Feeney lacks).

[alex8080]

He is on my roster build.

FA TARGETS
Dalvin Tomlinson (DT) - 5yr - ($55M)/$30G/$20SB/$7CH
Ted Karras (OC) - 4yr - ($36M)/$21G/$14SB/$6CH
Darqueze Dennard (CB) - 2yr - ($10M)/$6G/$4SB/$3.5CH
Fabian Moreau (CB) - 2yr - ($7M)/$3G/$3SB/$3CH

love that sequence of vet players, 1DT, 1 OC, 2 CB then attack draft at OT and OLB with pass rush mobility

[Steve]

It isn't oversimplified. OLBs can be 240-260 4-3 DEs need to be at least 260 to hold up in run support. You can think what you want but it was easier to man the 3-4 and we had our best D then. We had one NT Jamal ,2 DE Igor and Luis Castillo then 2 good rush OLBS Merriman and Phillips. It is easy to find backups for all. It is hard to find 260 lb DEs who can rush and stop the run

We have been shit in the 4-3 frankly.

34 OLB is the same position as a 43 DE with a very few, very minor differences. Why do you think PFF and all the salary cap pages refer to them as EDGE (instead of one or the other)?

If it is so fucking easy to get players, why did we spend two 1st, and two 2nd round draft picks on Merriman/Castillo and Jamal/Igor. the only one that adds any weight to that argument is Phillips as a 4th? And he only fell in the draft because teams felt like he was too close to marginal speed to add weight to be a DE????

I am not really in favor or against changing scheme, but it is really stupid to think that the scheme will make a difference, when we have players who can't tackle and shed blocks.

You need good players, and we simply haven't got them (or at least they are not playing well).

We did play pretty good D in our dime package the 1st two years that Gus was our DC. The last two years our nickle D has been awful, but there are a lot of reasons for that. We will be in the sub package 70-80% of the time anyway, so who cares what the base is, that really doesn't matter. We need good sub down players, because those are the guys who will be on the field.

Besides, we ARE playing a 34 D. When Carroll learned the D in SF, the LEO rusher was called an Elephant. Derrick Thomas and Charles Haley both played the same position, and both played OLB and DE. Ingram has played OLB and DE. There are dozens of guys who have done it (Greg Ellis for Cowboys). Our 34 OLB under Pagano used to line up at DE in our 4 man rush line.

Ingram is the rush LB, Bosa the DE, our Tillery/Jones would be called a DE in the 34 or a 3tech DT in the 43, and Joseph/Square are the NT, with Nwosu as the drop LB. Yoy are all hung up on symantics.

And how on earth do you think a 34 OLB who is lined up on the outside of a OT is going to be able to get away without being able to take on and shed blocks? LB in the 34 HAVE to take on blocks. They don't have enough DL in front to keep them clean. If the NT is being double teamed, a LB is still going to have to take on an OL.

[Cdn Bolt]

34 OLB is the same position as a 43 DE with a very few, very minor differences. Why do you think PFF and all the salary cap pages refer to them as EDGE (instead of one or the other)?

If it is so fucking easy to get players, why did we spend two 1st, and two 2nd round draft picks on Merriman/Castillo and Jamal/Igor. the only one that adds any weight to that argument is Phillips as a 4th? And he only fell in the draft because teams felt like he was too close to marginal speed to add weight to be a DE????

I am not really in favor or against changing scheme, but it is really stupid to think that the scheme will make a difference, when we have players who can't tackle and shed blocks.

You need good players, and we simply haven't got them (or at least they are not playing well).

We did play pretty good D in our dime package the 1st two years that Gus was our DC. The last two years our nickle D has been awful, but there are a lot of reasons for that. We will be in the sub package 70-80% of the time anyway, so who cares what the base is, that really doesn't matter. We need good sub down players, because those are the guys who will be on the field.

Besides, we ARE playing a 34 D. When Carroll learned the D in SF, the LEO rusher was called an Elephant. Derrick Thomas and Charles Haley both played the same position, and both played OLB and DE. Ingram has played OLB and DE. There are dozens of guys who have done it (Greg Ellis for Cowboys). Our 34 OLB under Pagano used to line up at DE in our 4 man rush line.

Ingram is the rush LB, Bosa the DE, our Tillery/Jones would be called a DE in the 34 or a 3tech DT in the 43, and Joseph/Square are the NT, with Nwosu as the drop LB. Yoy are all hung up on symantics.

And how on earth do you think a 34 OLB who is lined up on the outside of a OT is going to be able to get away without being able to take on and shed blocks? LB in the 34 HAVE to take on blocks. They don't have enough DL in front to keep them clean. If the NT is being double teamed, a LB is still going to have to take on an OL.

OLB and DE are different positions . DE has to take on OL in the run game the OLB doesn't in the 3-4. They used to bring up an OLB on passing situations . We had Steve Foley playing some OLB so it couldn't have been that hard. We are not playing a 3-4. In Gus;'s D he lines up in the 'under front' 5t, 1t 3t and 6t w a NT and DT as distinct positions where the NT is 1t and the other and the DT is a 3t

Either way I don't think we'll go back to it so let's not bother to debate it.

[Attack]

I’ll go with my researched contract amounts.

You think an ascending NT/DT is going to command more than $11 million APY?
This will be a 2021 season that has a reduced salary cap creating cuts of many veteran players and smaller overall contract amounts.

Karras as a top 3 FA OC will garner offers.
2 year starter, ascending, fairly young, good movement skills and possesses power @POA to create movement (which Feeney lacks).

You could be right on what the market bears. Just looking at the contracts for Kenny Clark, DJ Reader, and Javon Hargrave, who all just got paid, and looks like they got more than $11M per.

[Steve]

OLB and DE are different positions . DE has to take on OL in the run game the OLB doesn't in the 3-4. They used to bring up an OLB on passing situations . We had Steve Foley playing some OLB so it couldn't have been that hard. We are not playing a 3-4. In Gus;'s D he lines up in the 'under front' 5t, 1t 3t and 6t w a NT and DT as distinct positions where the NT is 1t and the other and the DT is a 3t

Either way I don't think we'll go back to it so let's not bother to debate it.

You can call it what you want, but unless you are telling me that Ingram never played OLB, then how do you explain the fact that he is a 240 lb DE?

So is Gus always lined up in an over or an under? Switch the strength of the formation, but leave the DL in position, you have a different alignment. And the reason NFL teams love over and under fronts is that they are the same in the 34 and 43, except that in the 34, they don't call the DE and 3 technique, even though he aligns in a 3 technique, and the Will LB is lined up in a wide 5 technique and plays like a DE.


What is "Foley played OLB so it couldn't have been that hard" supposed to mean? Foley was a good player. Not a great player. But there are places for good players on defenses. We are running short of good players.

You should do your homework before you open your mouth about things you are ignorant of.

The defense we play was develop by George Siefert and used by the 49ers in the 1980's and 90's during their super bowl runs. When he left, Pete Carroll ran the D, but they kept the scheme. The unique thing about it back then was that it mixed one and two gap techniques with the gap and heads up alignments of the 34 and 43. All they do is CALL it a 43 D, as opposed to a 34. It is exactly the same D.

https://www.bigcatcountry.com/2013/1/19/3890928/gus-bradley-defense-leo-position

The Double Eagle that we use pretty rarely is exactly the same as the double eagle that the is used in a 34/52 going back to Greasy Neale in the Philly Eagles back prior to inventing the 43.

besides how much Okie front and classic 43 (double 2i DT) looks do NFL give any more? They are pretty rare.

[Cdn Bolt]

You can call it what you want, but unless you are telling me that Ingram never played OLB, then how do you explain the fact that he is a 240 lb DE?

I never said that. He played OLB and he is 247 btw and probably better suited for OLB than DE taking on 300 lb lineman vs the run. That was a 3-4 DEs job before freeing them up to make plays.

What is "Foley played OLB so it couldn't have been that hard" supposed to mean? Foley was a good player. Not a great player. But there are places for good players on defenses. We are running short of good players.

You should do your homework before you open your mouth about things you are ignorant of.

It 'means' he was an avg Lber yet could be used as a pass rusher . It 'means' LBs are generally faster than DEs so it is easier to fill OLB needs in a 3-4 vs DE needs in a 4-3 as far as pass rushing goes . That is my view. You can disagree but you are the only one being an ignorant dik here thank you and we'll leave it there.

[Boltjolt]

I never said that. He played OLB and he is 247 btw and probably better suited for OLB than DE taking on 300 lb lineman vs the run. That was a 3-4 DEs jobe before job freeing them up to make plays.


It 'means' he was an avg Lber yet could be used as a pass rusher . It 'means' LBs are generally faster than DEs so it is easier to fill OLB needs in a 3-4 vs DE needs in a 4-3 . That is my view. You can disagree but you are the only one being an ignorant dik here thank you and we'll leave it there.

I dont agree with that either. OLB in a 3-4 are also in coverage a lot more than a 4-3 DE will be. And not everybody adapts well to it. I stated before that Haasan Reddick had a hard time (per sources with the team) adapting to standing up as a OLB for some reason and they declined his 5th year option,.... but it happens. Just as some OTs have a hard time adjusting from LT to RT and vice versa.

[Cdn Bolt]

I dont agree with that either. OLB in a 3-4 are also in coverage a lot more than a 4-3 DE will be. And not everybody adapts well to it. I stated before that Haasan Reddick had a hard time (per sources with the team) adapting to standing up as a OLB for some reason and they declined his 5th year option,.... but it happens. Just as some OTs have a hard time adjusting from LT to RT and vice versa.

I meant for pass rushing mainly.