This Team's D-line Rotation Sucks

[Steve]

TT tends to rely on college tape and productivity for evaluations.
However, prospects do need to meet minimum thresholds, or you end up with slow LBs like Manti Teo. The problem with gusD (and TPB draft evaluators I might ad) is that uber athleticism in various forms is emphasized too much over football traits and instincts which translate well to the pro game.

See Adderley and Tillery.
I am still trying to visualize Nasir wrapping up or Tillery anchoring at all, and this is a job requirement for Staley's defense. gusD had different aspects he prioritized, like playing fast and being physical.

How is not wrapping up and not anchoring still being physical in a football sense?

Again I call Bullshit.

Everyone knew Manti was slowish, like Perryman. However, you may remember his biggest play for the Chargers was an int in pass coverage like 30 yards downfield. There were times the guy could move. His bigger issue was he was not as instinctive, and that hurt his playing speed. There was a reason Teo fell like he did.

As far as an example of a guy with poor 40 times, I would point to (fellow) TTU alumni Zach Thomas. Poor 40 time, but great quickness, and super instinctive so he played much faster than he timed. Great at being able to apply his film study. But his measurables were low and it never hurt his ability to play, despite being undersized.

Anyone who relies too much on what happens at the combine is just stupid. The combine is for medical and interviews (there is never enough time to get everyone into the same room for interviews). It also gives the position coaches see a chance to see guys in person. And in a very minor sense it allows some confirmatory work to be done.

As far as things you view as Gus prioritizing and Staley either viewing differently or not ... I doubt it. Almost all coaches view the things pretty much the same. The tackling thing might be the only big difference. There is a growing movement to rugby tackling, but the results have been very mixed. Back in the Seattle days, the Seahawks were the best tackling team by a wide margin, and it showed in their defensive stats. We have never been there. I have theories as to why that is.

Good coaches can "coach" up players and fix weaknesses. It will be interesting to see the impact of Staley and the new DL coach, because Giff Smith at least used to be one of the better DL coaches. He got a lot of good use out of some middle and late picks, and even developed some top notch guys, but wasn't very productive in the last couple of years with us.

People need to stop this euphoric, the 34 D will set us free bullshit. OUR D WAS A 34 D. Leo is a weakside/blindside pass rushing OLB. We have a NT and a DE/DT who lines up inside and a strong DE who lines up outside just exactly like the Ravens 34 D does, and like the Chargers and 49ers used to run back in the 80's and early 90's. The only major difference in the old Eagle front Gus used and the new one that Staley will run is that Gus liked to put the SDE and 3 tech DT both aligned as a 3 technique players, while Staley lines them up as 4i players. They still control the same gap (or don't control the gap in our case). We just didn't use it that much. You are going to see lots of over and under shifted 34 fronts, because the 43 over and undershift have the same responsibilities, which is why coaches love them, they are scheme independent. And Staley played 86%(according to some youtube video) of his snaps in his sub package defenses, so it is not like we will be playing much, if any true 34 sets anyway. Nickel and dime and the true base D in the NFL and that dates back to the early 1980's.

Pass rushing is about a player being able to rush and beat the guy in front of him, while blitzing is about timing and disguise (or percieved disguise). Murray has never been asked to use his hands, set the edge and shed blockers. He has been used as a blitzer off the edge, but that is not the same thing as lining up and having the OT know that is who he is going to block and then having Murray beat him. Maybe he can learn, but why would we have drafted him in the 1st round (trading up) to get a guy who is going to have to learn a new position? Why if they felt like he could do it, didn't we ask him to do it last year when our Leo's were not getting much push.

As far as Ingram goes, I think we should bring him back, but as always, the price has to be right, and we have to look for his replacement. You can never have enough pass rushers and Ingram needs someone to push him. Bring them in and let them compete. Ingram would still make an excellent situational pass rusher and backup playing about half the snaps, rotating with someone else at the backside edge rush and with Bosa to keep him fresh.

[Steve]

I thought I learned my lesson years ago, which is why I thought Tua was the superior prospect over Herbert (by about 10 draft slots).
However now i'm considering leaning back (again) towards athleticism ASSUMING we have great/genius coaching
to teach Nasir how to wrap up and Tillery how to achor, these are not absurd physical demands, thus reasonable to ask Staley and co. to coach up these great athletes to execute basic fundamentals.
I think i'm willing to sacrifice instincts for under drafted athleticism, especially on defense and on day 3
I wouldn't say that if I didn't believe in Staley, would you say that's fair or am I missing something?

If you are going to be an exceptional NFL player, you need both. Lesser players can get by, but they still need some physical tools to work with.

Teo was viewed by a lot of draftnik's and college fans who just looked at his production as a great prospect. But when you broke down his tape, he is like a lot of college LB. He tended to wait and watch things develop, then react. That is too late in the NFL. I don't think NFL scouts and GM's thought nearly as highly of him as the draftnik's did. And that is a point I think that gets lost.

There is this impression that Mock drafts are a reasonably accurate view of what most NFL fornt offices view of players, and to a degree that may be true, but not everyone is.

Physically, I think Teo was OK. Not great, but OK. He was a moderately productive LB for us, and more productive for the Saints. But his being slow to read and react was something an ILB can never overcome. Like most LB he was much better going forward than playing in reverse, much like Micha Parsons in this draft, although Parsons reads things much more quickly than Teo does, and is quicker in transition.

[wu-dai clan]

Good stuff Steve.
Real good stuff.
Guess you've never heard about the Legend of Launchwhiffy.

Yep. Fundamentals plus athleticism.

I am a Hybrid D guy.
Let's do the 4-6.

[wu-dai clan]

Again I call Bullshit.
It's aaaall bullshit. But I did not say the underlined.

Everyone knew Manti was slowish, like Perryman. However, you may remember his biggest play for the Chargers was an int in pass coverage like 30 yards downfield. There were times the guy could move. His bigger issue was he was not as instinctive, and that hurt his playing speed. There was a reason Teo fell like he did.
I seem to remember a pick six at The U by Perryman.

Play speed. Tackling. Wrap up. 4-6 D. Disguised coverages. Flexible DB roles. I am liking Jevon Holland DB Oregon. Round 2.

As far as an example of a guy with poor 40 times, I would point to (fellow) TTU alumni Zach Thomas. Poor 40 time, but great quickness, and super instinctive so he played much faster than he timed. Great at being able to apply his film study. But his measurables were low and it never hurt his ability to play, despite being undersized.
Why I like Hayward/Harris for us better than $$$MDavis.

Anyone who relies too much on what happens at the combine is just stupid. The combine is for medical and interviews (there is never enough time to get everyone into the same room for interviews). It also gives the position coaches see a chance to see guys in person. And in a very minor sense it allows some confirmatory work to be done.
How dare you disparage the 3Cone.

As far as things you view as Gus prioritizing and Staley either viewing differently or not ... I doubt it. Almost all coaches view the things pretty much the same. The tackling thing might be the only big difference. There is a growing movement to rugby tackling, but the results have been very mixed. Back in the Seattle days, the Seahawks were the best tackling team by a wide margin, and it showed in their defensive stats. We have never been there. I have theories as to why that is.
Well ? ...

Good coaches can "coach" up players and fix weaknesses. It will be interesting to see the impact of Staley and the new DL coach, because Giff Smith at least used to be one of the better DL coaches. He got a lot of good use out of some middle and late picks, and even developed some top notch guys, but wasn't very productive in the last couple of years with us.
Tillery/JJones must develop.

People need to stop this euphoric, the 34 D will set us free bullshit. OUR D WAS A 34 D. Leo is a weakside/blindside pass rushing OLB. We have a NT and a DE/DT who lines up inside and a strong DE who lines up outside just exactly like the Ravens 34 D does, and like the Chargers and 49ers used to run back in the 80's and early 90's. The only major difference in the old Eagle front Gus used and the new one that Staley will run is that Gus liked to put the SDE and 3 tech DT both aligned as a 3 technique players, while Staley lines them up as 4i players. They still control the same gap (or don't control the gap in our case). We just didn't use it that much. You are going to see lots of over and under shifted 34 fronts, because the 43 over and undershift have the same responsibilities, which is why coaches love them, they are scheme independent. And Staley played 86%(according to some youtube video) of his snaps in his sub package defenses, so it is not like we will be playing much, if any true 34 sets anyway. Nickel and dime and the true base D in the NFL and that dates back to the early 1980's.
Yeah !

Pass rushing is about a player being able to rush and beat the guy in front of him, while blitzing is about timing and disguise (or percieved disguise). Murray has never been asked to use his hands, set the edge and shed blockers. He has been used as a blitzer off the edge, but that is not the same thing as lining up and having the OT know that is who he is going to block and then having Murray beat him. Maybe he can learn, but why would we have drafted him in the 1st round (trading up) to get a guy who is going to have to learn a new position? Why if they felt like he could do it, didn't we ask him to do it last year when our Leo's were not getting much push.
It's about ROI. Kenneth is a fast learner. I want to use Perryman MIKE and Tranquill JACK inside.
Get our best football players out there.

As far as Ingram goes, I think we should bring him back, but as always, the price has to be right, and we have to look for his replacement. You can never have enough pass rushers and Ingram needs someone to push him. Bring them in and let them compete. Ingram would still make an excellent situational pass rusher and backup playing about half the snaps, rotating with someone else at the backside edge rush and with Bosa to keep him fresh. I like Mel/Joey stunts...shades of Justin/Alden Smith w/SF. Short armed Ingram setting the EDGE but not fast learnin' Kenneth ? Bullshit.
BTW has anyone seen the way Ojulari takes on blockers ? Thump go the shoulder pads. Azeez played ORT in high school in a pinch.

veryourhead:

[Biggestfan]

This team needs to start really investing in the defensive line. All of the great teams throughout the years have been solidly above average in their defensive line play. Not sure why guys like Square are still in the rotation. As I said, Bosa is the whole dline. Linvale Joseph was pretty good. The rest were not good. Tillery isn't developing. Maybe a change in coaching can help. Justin Jones is not nearly what they need him to be either

[sonorajim]

This team needs to start really investing in the defensive line. All of the great teams throughout the years have been solidly above average in their defensive line play. Not sure why guys like Square are still in the rotation. As I said, Bosa is the whole dline. Linvale Joseph was pretty good. The rest were not good. Tillery isn't developing. Maybe a change in coaching can help. Justin Jones is not nearly what they need him to be either

There's been considerable imvestment.
Ingram, Bosa, Tillery LAC 1st rd draft picks, Jones a 3rd, Joseph a FA former 2nd.
Talent, training and scheme haven't been a good fit IMO.
We just hired an excellent HC/ D play caller & an acclaimed top DL coach. That will have an impact.
I'm not against adding talent but current LAC DL can and will be more effective.

[Silversurfer]

This team needs to start really investing in the defensive line. All of the great teams throughout the years have been solidly above average in their defensive line play. Not sure why guys like Square are still in the rotation. As I said, Bosa is the whole dline. Linvale Joseph was pretty good. The rest were not good. Tillery isn't developing. Maybe a change in coaching can help. Justin Jones is not nearly what they need him to be either

Yup! tired of these guys that never seem to develop. Hopefully new coach has some input on that. I like Joseph but hes up there in age, we need dudes that can plug some gaps. Just give us one guy on the interior that causes some havoc and Bosa and the Linebackers will be 10 times better. Always hated to see little Adderley making tackles and he was the last dude if he missed its a TD.

[powderblueboy]

If you are going to be an exceptional NFL player, you need both. Lesser players can get by, but they still need some physical tools to work with.

Teo was viewed by a lot of draftnik's and college fans who just looked at his production as a great prospect. But when you broke down his tape, he is like a lot of college LB. He tended to wait and watch things develop, then react. That is too late in the NFL. I don't think NFL scouts and GM's thought nearly as highly of him as the draftnik's did. And that is a point I think that gets lost.

There is this impression that Mock drafts are a reasonably accurate view of what most NFL fornt offices view of players, and to a degree that may be true, but not everyone is.

Physically, I think Teo was OK. Not great, but OK. He was a moderately productive LB for us, and more productive for the Saints. But his being slow to read and react was something an ILB can never overcome. Like most LB he was much better going forward than playing in reverse, much like Micha Parsons in this draft, although Parsons reads things much more quickly than Teo does, and is quicker in transition.

It surprised when it became apparent Teo wasn't all that instinctive. Not having watched him, I imagined that to be his strong point coming out of college.

[Boltjolt]

It surprised when it became apparent Teo wasn't all that instinctive. Not having watched him, I imagined that to be his strong point coming out of college.

Apparently Telesco's informant from Notre Dame isn't very good evaluating their talent.

I say stop talking to that guy lol.

Though their freshman RB Kyren Williams looks to be a good one but right now he is only 195lbs.

[AK47]

Noooooooo! Not the T-rex arm argument. That short arm thing was mocked and derided long ago as an online joke, a meme so to speak.

Seriously 2" means nothing. Now if he did not have fingers that would be something.

2 inches? Do you know wonders I can do with an extra 2 inches!!! Give me 2 more inches!! Imagine a dude in front of you. Clothed of course. Possibly in biker shorts. Now imagine said dude with 2 inches shorter arms. Imagine said dude throws a standing closed fist punch that stops 1 mm short of your nose. Now your turn. You shoot your standing punch and hit him 2 inches into his face. Be the dude with 2 more inches!!!! Now I know what your thinking lol!!

:bertstare:

2 inches though is a lot in the NFL. There's seemingly at least 2x every season where Ingram has his fingers on the QB's jersey and just when the QB is about to be pulled down they escape. An extra 2 inches and that would be a jersey grab and a sack. 2 extra sacks per season minimum. 2 inches more in arm length and that is a total 4 inches wider tackling radius. Those barely/almost tipped balls become pass deflections. Bull rushes are more effective since your grabbing the linemen 2 inches sooner.

As a PSA, February is the 9th annual unofficial "Measure You Arm Length Month". A tradition started by yes, AK47 in commemoration of the drafting of Melvin Ingram. I actually had Ingram projected as my 1st round pick....I had to fight off the short-arm comments.

[Biggestfan]

2 inches? Do you know wonders I can do with an extra 2 inches!!! Give me 2 more inches!! Imagine a dude in front of you. Clothed of course. Possibly in biker shorts. Now imagine said dude with 2 inches shorter arms. Imagine said dude throws a standing closed fist punch that stops 1 mm short of your nose. Now your turn. You shoot your standing punch and hit him 2 inches into his face. Be the dude with 2 more inches!!!! Now I know what your thinking lol!!

:bertstare:

2 inches though is a lot in the NFL. There's seemingly at least 2x every season where Ingram has his fingers on the QB's jersey and just when the QB is about to be pulled down they escape. An extra 2 inches and that would be a jersey grab and a sack. 2 extra sacks per season minimum. 2 inches more in arm length and that is a total 4 inches wider tackling radius. Those barely/almost tipped balls become pass deflections. Bull rushes are more effective since your grabbing the linemen 2 inches sooner.

As a PSA, February is the 9th annual unofficial "Measure You Arm Length Month". A tradition started by yes, AK47 in commemoration of the drafting of Melvin Ingram. I actually had Ingram projected as my 1st round pick....I had to fight off the short-arm comments.

Ingram no longer has the speed or moves to compensate for the arm deficiencies

[AK47]

Ingram no longer has the speed or moves to compensate for the arm deficiencies

Good point. We need some fresh and cheaper new talent.