Play Calling

[Boltjolt]

I can’t believe I have to keep posting the same things over and over again because chaincrusher can’t seem to understand certain things. Let’s start with the most obvious one. Sidenote: he probably is Daniel E.

Chain just doesn't understand football. Sorry but it's true.

He just presents circumstantial evidence (stats) which is what he is, a stat guy and thinks it holds water. Stats are misleading numbers in many situations, but not all.

Ironically the stats he ignores are those that have us at the top of the league in areas he says we aren't even doing lol.

It's why I had to put him on ignore. It's like trying to get a chronic barking dog to stop and even a shock collar won't work.

[Xenos]

The game film each game shows plenty of deep routes built in and depending on protection, progression, coverages, and reads Justin will do his best to execute the play, including deep shot when they are open and he has time to throw it.

Why are you asking questions that have ample evidence to figure it out for yourself with videos of all 22?

How did the Bengals play it, how did the Steelers play it........Hint: Not the same way.

Tip: Pre snap box and coverages don't matter. Post snap actual box and coverages do.

Both on tape and comments by players and coaches after game, the Bengals didn't drop into a 2 deep shell into 2nd half.

Recommendation: Find better answers to your own questions and concerns before posting opinion out of your back side.

P.S. You could have just called Staley a liar instead of your long-winded lawyer BS.
:hello:

The only way chaincrusher would be happy would be if Norv or Mike Martz was our OC. Got to get those deep balls no matter what!

[Critty]

Context matters sometimes. We were able to protect Herbert in the first half and the Bengals stupidly dared us to beat them deep by crowding the box. Lombardi and Herbert obliged. Bengals eventually adjusted after the half to protect the deep parts, Herbert took more hits and sacks, so we adjusted as well and went back to the shorter passing game.
https://www.thepowderblues.com/forum...51#post1286251

Lol. Chainy posted ...I was right. I was exactly right. I was exactly right in spectacular fashion. Lol.

They need to throw deep more. The OC stinks.
They get some advantageous coverages and protection on the same play calls as the previous games and Herbert connects. And Chainy shouts from the hilltops ....I was exactly right!

#BrokenClocksAreExactlyRightTwiceADay
:ygdr:

[Boltjolt]

The only way chaincrusher would be happy would be if Norv or Mike Martz was our OC. Got to get those deep balls no matter what!

I think he would be happy if we just threw them to Guyton and nobody else.

[Guest]

Context matters sometimes. We were able to protect Herbert in the first half and the Bengals stupidly dared us to beat them deep by crowding the box. Lombardi and Herbert obliged. Bengals eventually adjusted after the half to protect the deep parts, Herbert took more hits and sacks, so we adjusted as well and went back to the shorter passing game.
https://www.thepowderblues.com/forum...51#post1286251

What I have seen here from several posters in this thread are a bunch of false excuses:

1. We are trying to let our deep pass patterns develop so we can throw deep, but have faced deep cover shells preventing us from doing so. FALSE. We are in the bottom 5 in air yards per attempt and have not been holding the ball long in the pocket when compared to other teams.

2. We are trying to let our deep pass patterns develop so we can throw deep, but have faced too much pass pressure preventing us from doing so. FALSE AND SOMEWHAT INCONSISTENT WITH EXCUSE 1. We are among the 6 least pressured teams in terms of percentage of pressure faced. It is funny how teams are able to use their numbers both to cover us deep and generate a pass rush against us all at the same time.

3. We actually have been throwing deep, so saying that we are not throwing deep is just wrong. LAUGHABLY FALSE AND ENTIRELY INCONSISTENT WITH FALSE EXCUSES 1 AND 2. But it is funny that Boltjolt actually suggested this while at the same time others were trying to make excuses as to why we were not and should not be throwing deep. We do not lead the league in 40+ yard passes and have only 77% of the number the league leader has even after the two deep passes hit on Sunday. Also, several of the 40+ yard pass plays this year, unlike last year, were not designed deep pass plays.

So please, just stop with all of the BS nonsense. Sunday proved that I was right and have been all along and did so in really spectacular fashion.

As for your latest attempt to explain away what we all saw on Sunday, nobody has ever stated that we should be throwing deep all of the time. That would be just as stupid and predictable as throwing short all of the time has been. What I have always stated is that we should be taking several shots per game and should be using Guyton in the deep passing game. Until Sunday, we had not been doing that.

And the simple fact is that as soon as we tried what I have been calling for us to do, it worked like a charm. But for weak efforts by Palmer and Parham on long passes, we likely would have scored 50+ points on Sunday.

Further, nobody has ever stated that defenses do not ever try to cover us deep. Rather, I am stating that it is pure BS that we have somehow been trying to emphasize holding the ball to let deep pass plays develop this season only to be thwarted by defenses sitting back in some deep cover shell trying to prevent them. We absolutely have not emphasized trying to hit deep passes down the field. And opposing defenses have absolutely not been sitting back in deep cover shells against us all season long.

Teams have been squatting on us at times, especially in recent weeks. And no, those are not simply "pre-snap" looks as suggested by Critty. Does that mean that a defense never shows pressure and then backs out of it? No, of course not. But that is not primarily what teams are doing against us.

Herbert is not among the league leaders in holding the ball and we remain a bottom 5 team in air yards per attempt even after Sunday. We are also a bottom 6 team in percentage of pass pressure against us, further demonstrating that we are throwing quickly and generally not trying to take the time to throw deep.

The lack of air yards per attempt is what Lombardi did in Detroit with Stafford and what is he is doing here with Herbert. He is forcing his short passing play calling system onto QBs that are more naturally talented deep passers. (By the way, it is Stafford that currently leads the league in 40+ yard passes.) He has forced Herbert, as he did with Stafford, to play like Drew Brees, a weaker armed, but very accurate passer. That is the problem.

On Sunday, we saw the solution to the problem, as I have said would be the case pretty much all season long.

[Guest]

The only way chaincrusher would be happy would be if Norv or Mike Martz was our OC. Got to get those deep balls no matter what!

Norv was a horrible play caller for us. I think I have been crystal clear in expressing that view. He was incredibly predictable and had no feel for the game he was calling--a lot like Lombardi has been most of this season in that respect.

I think Martz was a very good and underrated play caller in his time with the Rams given the team that he had and the way the NFL was at that time. More than any other offense, the Greatest Show on Turf reminded me of our offenses from the early 1980s under Coryell, who was a huge influence on Martz.

[Guest]

I think he would be happy if we just threw them to Guyton and nobody else.

Again, I think I have been very clear on this point. In terms of designed very deep passes (traditional bomb plays), I think we should target Guyton roughly twice for every time that we target Williams. Every once in a while, we can target someone else. We are talking about a solid 3-4 very deep passes per game actually being thrown. 90% of the very deep passes should be to Guyton and Williams.

I would use Williams more in the intermediate passing range where the windows are expected to be tighter, so he can use his body to make those plays. I would use Williams a little less on shorter passing plays. He is so much better when he has a chance to position his body and adjust to the pass. His hands are a little less natural on shorter hard passes.

I would use Allen on short and intermediate passes, but not on deeper crossing patterns, which have resulted in multiple INTs this year so far. The key to Allen is to use him on routes where a quick cut gets him open. Allen is not good when asked to go in the same direction for an extended time period because he cannot outrun anyone. The pass has to come before he runs in the same direction for any extended time as Allen gets open with quickness, but lacks the speed to offset the recovery of defenders after initially being beaten.

If Palmer needs to play, then I would use him mostly on short routes and the occasional medium route (mostly like Allen, but with the understanding that he will not be open as often as Allen unless the defense plays off coverage, which defenses have done, but should not do against Palmer), but I would prefer for him to be used less and for Guyton to be used more to make big, game changing plays for us, plays that Palmer is much less likely to make.

I continue to be of the view that in addition to not producing for us, Palmer has actually taken away from the team's success by taking snaps away from Guyton.

[Critty]

Wow. Imaginary world.
Literally mind blowing.
Again saying I was right in spectacular fashion. LOL.
Broken clocks are exactly right twice a day and there is nothing spectacular about it.

Simple elementary level football 101 to understand that pressure rates numbers are not directly tied to how good protection. If you're throwing quicker less air yards that impacts pressure rates significantly. Another argument that falls flat on its face again while delusionally claiming to be exactly right, as you post a wall of fail again. Bravo!

The tape don't lie, but a fan with a desperate need to be right no matter what can Spin A Yarn.

Check the link. Read and learn. Or pretend to be smarter than everyone and dismiss the article as BS. Enjoy!

[Xenos]

What I have seen here from several posters in this thread are a bunch of false excuses:

1. We are trying to let our deep pass patterns develop so we can throw deep, but have faced deep cover shells preventing us from doing so. FALSE. We are in the bottom 5 in air yards per attempt and have not been holding the ball long in the pocket when compared to other teams.

2. We are trying to let our deep pass patterns develop so we can throw deep, but have faced too much pass pressure preventing us from doing so. FALSE AND SOMEWHAT INCONSISTENT WITH EXCUSE 1. We are among the 6 least pressured teams in terms of percentage of pressure faced. It is funny how teams are able to use their numbers both to cover us deep and generate a pass rush against us all at the same time.

3. We actually have been throwing deep, so saying that we are not throwing deep is just wrong. LAUGHABLY FALSE AND ENTIRELY INCONSISTENT WITH FALSE EXCUSES 1 AND 2. But it is funny that Boltjolt actually suggested this while at the same time others were trying to make excuses as to why we were not and should not be throwing deep. We do not lead the league in 40+ yard passes and have only 77% of the number the league leader has even after the two deep passes hit on Sunday. Also, several of the 40+ yard pass plays this year, unlike last year, were not designed deep pass plays.

So please, just stop with all of the BS nonsense. Sunday proved that I was right and have been all along and did so in really spectacular fashion.

As for your latest attempt to explain away what we all saw on Sunday, nobody has ever stated that we should be throwing deep all of the time. That would be just as stupid and predictable as throwing short all of the time has been. What I have always stated is that we should be taking several shots per game and should be using Guyton in the deep passing game. Until Sunday, we had not been doing that.

And the simple fact is that as soon as we tried what I have been calling for us to do, it worked like a charm. But for weak efforts by Palmer and Parham on long passes, we likely would have scored 50+ points on Sunday.

Further, nobody has ever stated that defenses do not ever try to cover us deep. Rather, I am stating that it is pure BS that we have somehow been trying to emphasize holding the ball to let deep pass plays develop this season only to be thwarted by defenses sitting back in some deep cover shell trying to prevent them. We absolutely have not emphasized trying to hit deep passes down the field. And opposing defenses have absolutely not been sitting back in deep cover shells against us all season long.

Teams have been squatting on us at times, especially in recent weeks. And no, those are not simply "pre-snap" looks as suggested by Critty. Does that mean that a defense never shows pressure and then backs out of it? No, of course not. But that is not primarily what teams are doing against us.

Herbert is not among the league leaders in holding the ball and we remain a bottom 5 team in air yards per attempt even after Sunday. We are also a bottom 6 team in percentage of pass pressure against us, further demonstrating that we are throwing quickly and generally not trying to take the time to throw deep.

The lack of air yards per attempt is what Lombardi did in Detroit with Stafford and what is he is doing here with Herbert. He is forcing his short passing play calling system onto QBs that are more naturally talented deep passers. (By the way, it is Stafford that currently leads the league in 40+ yard passes.) He has forced Herbert, as he did with Stafford, to play like Drew Brees, a weaker armed, but very accurate passer. That is the problem.

On Sunday, we saw the solution to the problem, as I have said would be the case pretty much all season long.

This is a rather long winded way of saying that you don’t understand football chaincrusher. It’s okay. This particular sport may be too difficult for even a lawyer like you to understand.

[Guest]

Chain just doesn't understand football. Sorry but it's true.

He just presents circumstantial evidence (stats) which is what he is, a stat guy and thinks it holds water. Stats are misleading numbers in many situations, but not all.

Ironically the stats he ignores are those that have us at the top of the league in areas he says we aren't even doing lol.

It's why I had to put him on ignore. It's like trying to get a chronic barking dog to stop and even a shock collar won't work.

And the above post is the winner for the most ridiculous post I have seen this season.

I have been watching NFL football since the early/mid 1970s, so your take on my football knowledge is incredibly ignorant and weak.

Your suggestion that having statistical support for my positions is a bad thing is duly noted and rejected for the nonsense that it is.

Your failure to have a full comprehension of stats you are attempting cite unsuccessfully is also duly noted and rejected as feeble.

We are not among the leaders in designed 40+ yard passes. We have had multiple plays where Herbert was pressured, scrambled and threw late to a receiver that had worked his way down the field. That is not a designed long pass. We also had a 17 yard pass play on which the receiver ran for an additional 36 yards. The plays that we have not really been doing are designed very long long pass plays.

Further, we are 20th in pass plays of 25+ yards despite being third in pass attempts. We are not throwing the ball down the field. We have been and remain, even after Sunday, in the bottom 5 in air yards per attempts. And since we are 3rd in pass attempts and have Herbert, Guyton and Williams, we should be leading the league outright in very long completions.

And it is hilarious that you are arguing that we have been throwing throwing the ball down the field while others who are trying to justify what has been poor play calling for most of the season have been offering (inconsistent) excuses for why we have not been throwing the ball down the field.

Maybe you guys should get together and try to figure out which BS story you want to go with before offering a bunch of pathetic excuses in a weak effort to defend that which cannot be defended.

[Guest]

This is a rather long winded way of saying that you don’t understand football chaincrusher. It’s okay. This particular sport may be too difficult for even a lawyer like you to understand.

Well, I understand football more than you understand argumentation. The mutually inconsistent points offered by you and some others have been exposed and utterly destroyed.

I literally posted one minute before the game against CIN began about Guyton being open on deep routes and about the alleged failure to block preventing the deep passing game being a BS excuse for not throwing deep (since we did so successfully with the worst OL in all of football last season) after advocating all season for more deep passes in general and especially to Guyton, a deep ball specialist last year who had exactly zero deep ball receptions this entire season coming into Sunday's game.

We then tried exactly what I had been begging us to try doing and it worked in spectacular fashion. One pass, one 44 yard TD--sit down, shut up.

You see, that tends to show that I was right and tends to show it in really spectacular fashion.

What the OP overlooked is that the pass blocking scheme and play design matter when calling deeper passes. Also, the videos posted are not really designed very deep shot plays for the most part and are not mainly what I have been discussing this entire season. It is also clear that Guyton is not the primary target on most of the plays based upon where Herbert is looking. Anyone can see pressure on a video, but why is the pressure happening and what can be done about it? Pressures can happen on long pass plays when the OL is not configured in an intelligent way, can happen when we do not increase our pass protection numbers, and can happen when we do not use techniques to increase the time to throw such as changing Herbert's launch point.

And the fact remains that we are the 6th least pressured team in terms of percentage of pass pressures, so while anyone can find isolated examples, the narrative of pressure being a huge problem for us that is somehow preventing us from doing deep passing plays is largely false. And unless you are going to argue that this year's pass protection is worse than last year's was, there is no effective way to assert that pass protection issues prevent us from throwing deep altogether since we already accomplished the feat with worst OL in the NFL last year.

[Critty]

There's nothing to get straight except your comprehension.

Chargers lead the league in completions of 40+ is a very fair comment to show the deep pass is showing up.

Game tape that shows deep route design but pressure that prevented those throws from happening is very fair comment.

Short passing game being an extension of run game in a new offense that is throwing it more often so those extra short passes instead of the runs impact overall air yards is an extremely fair comment to show air yards stat by itself is almost meaningless.

Maybe you should work on expanding your knowledge about the air yard stat and how a team who intentionally uses short passes as part of run game will water down the air yards. Instead of continuous BS that the air yard stats sole and super meaningful significance about deep passes.

And what with your need to be exactly right in spectacular fashion. It's quite odd and doesn't add to your takes but instead makes them look borderline narcissistic.

Chainy, your schtick of being a know it all stat guy who is the smartest guy in the room is worn out and washed up.

There is no intellectual discussion, sharing of ideas or debate with the guy who is always right. Good luck with that.