AFC West Roster Positional Rankings

[DerwinBosa]

This whole thread is stupid. Mahomes IS a GREAT QB…Herbert IS a GREAT QB….and I’m glad to have Herbert on my side compared to that Kermit the Frog motherfucker!

Clinging to a quarterback and rooting for him over everything else is the way many fans follow the game now. Along with the current rules favoring the quarterbacks to a nauseating level, it's why I like the position less and less each season. The worst I've noticed are those who worship Tom Brady. Patriots fans they were not, as they followed him to the Buccaneers and couldn't care less about New England now. And if you say Joe Montana or Johnny Unitas is the greatest quarterback of all time in front of them, forget it. They take it as hard or even worse than they would if you were to insult their parents or kids.

In this thread we have a gentleman now calling those who think (logically) that Justin Herbert going into only his third season isn't quite as good as Patrick Mahomes YET "Mahomers." The audacity to think Herbert is not infallible and still needs to improve in a few areas. It's ridiculous, but also quite comical.

Anyway, earlier I said it was time to exit the thread. Now I'm definitely out.

[dmac_bolt]

Clinging to a quarterback and rooting for him over everything else is the way many fans follow the game now. Along with the current rules favoring the quarterbacks to a nauseating level, it's why I like the position less and less each season. The worst I've noticed are those who worship Tom Brady. Patriots fans they were not, as they followed him to the Buccaneers and couldn't care less about New England now. And if you say Joe Montana or Johnny Unitas is the greatest quarterback of all time in front of them, forget it. They take it as hard or even worse than they would if you were to insult their parents or kids.

In this thread we have a gentleman now calling those who think (logically) that Justin Herbert going into only his third season isn't quite as good as Patrick Mahomes YET "Mahomers." The audacity to think Herbert is not infallible and still needs to improve in a few areas. It's ridiculous, but also quite comical.

Anyway, earlier I said it was time to exit the thread. Now I'm definitely out.

we can only hope you can now give it a rest, Mahomey. your pompous patrification of Mahomes is what is comical. better than Mahomes = infallible? Lol … deity much?

[Boltjolt]

Clinging to a quarterback and rooting for him over everything else is the way many fans follow the game now. Along with the current rules favoring the quarterbacks to a nauseating level, it's why I like the position less and less each season. The worst I've noticed are those who worship Tom Brady. Patriots fans they were not, as they followed him to the Buccaneers and couldn't care less about New England now. And if you say Joe Montana or Johnny Unitas is the greatest quarterback of all time in front of them, forget it. They take it as hard or even worse than they would if you were to insult their parents or kids.

In this thread we have a gentleman now calling those who think (logically) that Justin Herbert going into only his third season isn't quite as good as Patrick Mahomes YET "Mahomers." The audacity to think Herbert is not infallible and still needs to improve in a few areas. It's ridiculous, but also quite comical.

Anyway, earlier I said it was time to exit the thread. Now I'm definitely out.

The lame rules and an extra game, we will see many season records fall in the coming years. They make it so much easier for the QBs and it really is not even fair to compare today QBs from even the early 2000's and ridiculous to compare beyond that.

Again at this point, today....does it matter who is the better QB? They were pretty even last season so it comes down to the rest of their teams to see who is better and who wins the AFC West. I like our chances very much but injuries will be a factor.

[dmac_bolt]

The lame rules and an extra game, we will see many season records fall in the coming years. They make it so much easier for the QBs and it really is not even fair to compare today QBs from even the early 2000's and ridiculous to compare beyond that.

Again at this point, today....does it matter who is the better QB? They were pretty even last season so it comes down to the rest of their teams to see who is better and who wins the AFC West. I like our chances very much but injuries will be a factor.

That is generally true with regards to stats and records. Still … I don’t think Fouts or Rivers were better than Herbert. Fouts was absolutely horrible his first couple years. People forget how bad he was. Rivers was good from the start when he had two HOF weapons and a good OL. Neither were as good as Herbert imo.

[Guest]

Clinging to a quarterback and rooting for him over everything else is the way many fans follow the game now. Along with the current rules favoring the quarterbacks to a nauseating level, it's why I like the position less and less each season. The worst I've noticed are those who worship Tom Brady. Patriots fans they were not, as they followed him to the Buccaneers and couldn't care less about New England now. And if you say Joe Montana or Johnny Unitas is the greatest quarterback of all time in front of them, forget it. They take it as hard or even worse than they would if you were to insult their parents or kids.

In this thread we have a gentleman now calling those who think (logically) that Justin Herbert going into only his third season isn't quite as good as Patrick Mahomes YET "Mahomers." The audacity to think Herbert is not infallible and still needs to improve in a few areas. It's ridiculous, but also quite comical.

Anyway, earlier I said it was time to exit the thread. Now I'm definitely out.

At post #36, you stated regarding the comparison between Herbert and Mahomes, "but as of right now ranking Herbert higher is pure homerism." It is this notion that one would have to be guilty of "pure homerism" to rank Herbert ahead of Mahomes that constitutes the "Mahomerism" term that dmac_bolt coined, which refers to an elevating of Mahomes to a status far higher than is objectively supportable and, frankly, that is just out of touch with reality. In the post quoted above, you have made a failed attempt to turn your obvious Mahomerism in this respect on its head.

Not only am I not a homer for ranking Herbert ahead of Mahomes entering 2022, I have a whole bunch of support for my position. By the measurements, Herbert is the better athlete--bigger and faster. I will add to that that when you watch the two QBs in person as I have, it is pretty easy to see that Herbert routinely throws a better ball than Mahomes does. In addition, in this thread, I have identified 11 statistical categories, categories that are both quantitative and qualitative, in which Herbert was better than Mahomes in 2021. The advantages held by Herbert in some of these statistical categories were fairly large. (See post #94 for a listing of those categories.)

In doing so, I negated a couple of the statistical categories cited as meaningful in favor of Mahomes, proving that INT% and completion percentage do not tell the whole story as Herbert had a higher percentage of on target throws and a lower percentage of bad passes than Mahomes despite not having as high of a completion percentage; and Mahomes turned the ball over more than Herbert because Mahomes fumbled the ball 9 times, losing four, versus the one absolutely horrible "fumble" call against Herbert on an incomplete pass that traveled 20 yards down the field into end zone, which was Herbert's only scored fumble all season long.

Beyond that, in examining the external factors for each QB, Herbert, for the first time either in college or the NFL, will get to play in the same offensive system for a second season. Also, many QBs experience a jump in their level of play in year three. Josh Allen is a recent example of that. On the other hand, Mahomes lost Tyreek Hill, the single most dangerous and defense altering receiver in the NFL. So, we have one QB that seems to be ascending, while the other will have to fight to maintain his previous level based upon external circumstances.

My view is that Herbert was already better than Mahomes in 2021. The stats support that view. Many people already seem to value Herbert more than Mahomes as evidenced by people voting Herbert as the starter for the AFC in the Pro Bowl over Mahomes. Since our fan base gets knocked routinely as being small following our team's relocation to Los Angeles, who are all of those people that voted Herbert over Mahomes? Are they pure Chargers homers too even though most of them are presumably not Chargers fans?

Finally, your imputation of motives and thought processes throughout this thread has just been wrong. I have stated that Herbert is better than Mahomes and I have supported that position with stats and other facts. Completely contrary to your repeated notion that I have responded as if my family members were being insulted or that I am rooting for the QB above all else (both of which imply that I am somehow responding out of bias, emotion and in an irrational fashion), I have shown in a very objective fashion that there is considerable evidence that demonstrates that Herbert was already better than Mahomes in 2021 and that that gap should widen in 2022.

That you have ducked taking on my position on the merits and have resorted to an assignment of motives and thought processes rather than a discussion of the merits of the matter is telling.

[Boltjolt]

That is generally true with regards to stats and records. Still … I don’t think Fouts or Rivers were better than Herbert. Fouts was absolutely horrible his first couple years. People forget how bad he was. Rivers was good from the start when he had two HOF weapons and a good OL. Neither were as good as Herbert imo.

Won't argue any of it but I will say in Rivers and especially Fouts early years we didn't have a PI flag thrown every 3rd pass and didn't have roughing the QB calls if you grazed their helmet, landed on top of them or just hit them too hard.

How much better would they be early if they had these jacked up rules?

So different now, even from Rivers as a first time starter....for the worse IMO. Can't stand seeing so many flags thrown.

[sonorajim]

Won't argue any of it but I will say in Rivers and especially Fouts early years we didn't have a PI flag thrown every 3rd pass and didn't have roughing the QB calls if you grazed their helmet, landed on top of them or just hit them too hard.

How much better would they be early if they had these jacked up rules?

So different now, even from Rivers as a first time starter....for the worse IMO. Can't stand seeing so many flags thrown.

The Chargers got some BS flags during Rivers tenure. Didn't PR get three flags in a row for bobbing his head during snap count at NO?
That was hard to watch.
Receivers looked for Jammer. Just run into him - PI! Even if the pass was on the other side of the field.
The 70's weren't as bad. 60's were a dogfight.

[dmac_bolt]

Won't argue any of it but I will say in Rivers and especially Fouts early years we didn't have a PI flag thrown every 3rd pass and didn't have roughing the QB calls if you grazed their helmet, landed on top of them or just hit them too hard.

How much better would they be early if they had these jacked up rules?

So different now, even from Rivers as a first time starter....for the worse IMO. Can't stand seeing so many flags thrown.

I once had a friend who would always say “if If’s were Skifs, we’d all be sailors”.. so many of these debates / questions are unknowable and decided by personally informed (biased?) opinion. I don’t think you drop year2 Fouts into last year’s Charger team and he comes anywhere close to what Herbert did. I don’t think Rivers outplays him - Rivers played under basically the same rules imo.

I just watch them all play and Herbert looks by far like the best QB. he throws the best, he runs the best, I don’t think his intelligence can be beaten. Neither Fouts nor Rivers ever won any big game so its not like we can assign some intangible moxy gumption git-er-done plus factor to either of them. Stepping up to NFL QB is a very tough thing to do and I don’t know that its gotten easier. The game is more complicated, faster, defenders are better trained and conditioned. Herbert has done it his first two years literally and measurably better than ANY PRIOR QB IN NFL HISTORY.

Yes - he has the best statistics in first 2 years of any QB ever. Including Mahomey. Emphasis added for my good brother friend DJ, not you

[Boltjolt]

I once had a friend who would always say “if If’s were Skifs, we’d all be sailors”.. so many of these debates / questions are unknowable and decided by personally informed (biased?) opinion. I don’t think you drop year2 Fouts into last year’s Charger team and he comes anywhere close to what Herbert did. I don’t think Rivers outplays him - Rivers played under basically the same rules imo.

I just watch them all play and Herbert looks by far like the best QB. he throws the best, he runs the best, I don’t think his intelligence can be beaten. Neither Fouts nor Rivers ever won any big game so its not like we can assign some intangible moxy gumption git-er-done plus factor to either of them. Stepping up to NFL QB is a very tough thing to do and I don’t know that its gotten easier. The game is more complicated, faster, defenders are better trained and conditioned. Herbert has done it his first two years literally and measurably better than ANY PRIOR QB IN NFL HISTORY.

Yes - he has the best statistics in first 2 years of any QB ever. Including Mahomey. Emphasis added for my good brother friend DJ, not you

Not trying to take anything away from Herbert but Rivers didn't play under the same rules in 2006 and 2007. In his last years sure...and i mean very last years. Theres no way when he started out the rules were the same, hec id love them to go back to 2006 rules instead of the BS they do now.

It's only been around what,.. 5 years that the league changed everything.....and from there still made changes for head injuries from lawsuits and geared everything to more offense.

It's a reason Brady said he isn't retiring before he became a Buck, because "they have made it too easy". You will never hear Fouts say that.



He also said these bits:

https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/t...out-nfl-rules/


The NFL is still king, but that doesn't mean the product is perfect. Every year the league tries to find ways to make the game safer. While this is a noble pursuit, some of the new rules implemented have negatively affected the game in other ways. Flags are thrown on "bang-bang plays," and a massive hit will almost always draw a piece of yellow laundry. While these penalties are made to protect the players, Tom Brady recently called them a "disservice to the sport."

Brady is entering his 22nd season in the NFL, and he has seen plenty of change. The hits that are allowed and how the quarterback is treated are very different compared to what they used to be, and Brady said during a recent "Player Chat" session with the Tampa Bay Buccaneers that it's been difficult to adjust to. The future Pro Football Hall of Famer said that quarterbacking is not being taught the right way anymore because signal-callers used to have to throw the ball into very specific areas to protect their wide receivers from getting blind-sided.


"A quarterback should only throw the ball to certain places, because your receiver is in danger of getting hit," Brady said.

Brady brought up how, when he played against legendary Baltimore Ravens linebacker Ray Lewis, he wouldn't throw to the middle of the field because Lewis would knock players out of the game.






"And now, every hard hit is a penalty on the defense," Brady said. "So I feel like they penalize defensive players for offensive mistakes."

Brady isn't just speaking on penalties in the passing game. He also has a problem with how quarterbacks -- like himself -- are protected even when they fail to protect themselves. Brady spoke about how if the offensive line makes a mistake in blocking or a quarterback fails to register an approaching blitzer coming in like a missile, that eventual big hit could be flagged.

"If you're a quarterback you gotta protect yourself and your players," Brady said. "It shouldn't be the responsibility of your opponent to protect you. It creates really bad habits for players because you feel like 'I can basically do anything. I can run and not slide, I can throw my receiver into any coverage and not have any repercussion for it.' The only thing they're gonna do is they're actually going to blame the defensive player for making a good solid hit, and now the defensive player is going to feel like, 'Oh I can't do that,' even though I feel like it was an offensive mistake.








"In the end, I think it's a disservice to the sport because the sport isn't being played at a high level like I believe that it once was. It actually deteriorates because you're not teaching the players the reasons and the fundamentals of what the sport should be."

Brady is saying NFL rules are rewarding what is actually bad quarterback play. Campaigning for defenses to be more free to inflict pain on players like himself is not something you would expect to hear, but his reasoning has more to do with how the game is played instead of just pure entertainment.

Brady, Gronk and the gang are back. Are the Bucs ready to hoist the Lombardi Trophy again?

[sonorajim]

Not trying to take anything away from Herbert but Rivers didn't play under the same rules in 2006 and 2007. In his last years sure...and i mean very last years. Theres no way when he started out the rules were the same, hec id love them to go back to 2006 rules instead of the BS they do now.

It's only been around what,.. 5 years that the league changed everything.....and from there still made changes for head injuries from lawsuits and geared everything to more offense.

It's a reason Brady said he isn't retiring before he became a Buck, because "they have made it too easy". You will never hear Fouts say that.



He also said these bits:

https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/t...out-nfl-rules/


The NFL is still king, but that doesn't mean the product is perfect. Every year the league tries to find ways to make the game safer. While this is a noble pursuit, some of the new rules implemented have negatively affected the game in other ways. Flags are thrown on "bang-bang plays," and a massive hit will almost always draw a piece of yellow laundry. While these penalties are made to protect the players, Tom Brady recently called them a "disservice to the sport."

Brady is entering his 22nd season in the NFL, and he has seen plenty of change. The hits that are allowed and how the quarterback is treated are very different compared to what they used to be, and Brady said during a recent "Player Chat" session with the Tampa Bay Buccaneers that it's been difficult to adjust to. The future Pro Football Hall of Famer said that quarterbacking is not being taught the right way anymore because signal-callers used to have to throw the ball into very specific areas to protect their wide receivers from getting blind-sided.


"A quarterback should only throw the ball to certain places, because your receiver is in danger of getting hit," Brady said.

Brady brought up how, when he played against legendary Baltimore Ravens linebacker Ray Lewis, he wouldn't throw to the middle of the field because Lewis would knock players out of the game.






"And now, every hard hit is a penalty on the defense," Brady said. "So I feel like they penalize defensive players for offensive mistakes."

Brady isn't just speaking on penalties in the passing game. He also has a problem with how quarterbacks -- like himself -- are protected even when they fail to protect themselves. Brady spoke about how if the offensive line makes a mistake in blocking or a quarterback fails to register an approaching blitzer coming in like a missile, that eventual big hit could be flagged.

"If you're a quarterback you gotta protect yourself and your players," Brady said. "It shouldn't be the responsibility of your opponent to protect you. It creates really bad habits for players because you feel like 'I can basically do anything. I can run and not slide, I can throw my receiver into any coverage and not have any repercussion for it.' The only thing they're gonna do is they're actually going to blame the defensive player for making a good solid hit, and now the defensive player is going to feel like, 'Oh I can't do that,' even though I feel like it was an offensive mistake.








"In the end, I think it's a disservice to the sport because the sport isn't being played at a high level like I believe that it once was. It actually deteriorates because you're not teaching the players the reasons and the fundamentals of what the sport should be."

Brady is saying NFL rules are rewarding what is actually bad quarterback play. Campaigning for defenses to be more free to inflict pain on players like himself is not something you would expect to hear, but his reasoning has more to do with how the game is played instead of just pure entertainment.

Brady, Gronk and the gang are back. Are the Bucs ready to hoist the Lombardi Trophy again?

Brady makes some good points. Herbert has the best arm, Brady's still the GOAT.