Creating Pass Rush

[sonorajim]

I hope for a strong pass rush this year. Mack - Bosa edge and draft a quality 3T DL. Get pressure with 4 DL.

[dmac_bolt]

2010 Chargers were NFL #1 defense. (and offense) and worst STs in NFL history.

A contributor to their defensive yards stat was the historic worst STs that either gave up direct scores (opponent offense didnt step on field) or extremely shortened fields (far less offensive yards).

Defense yards allowed ranking didnt fully reflect their strength - they were not the best defense in the league and we all really should know that and recognize it here as we watched the games and saw it.

[sonorajim]

A contributor to their defensive yards stat was the historic worst STs that either gave up direct scores (opponent offense didnt step on field) or extremely shortened fields (far less offensive yards).

Defense yards allowed ranking didnt fully reflect their strength - they were not the best defense in the league and we all really should know that and recognize it here as we watched the games and saw it.

Agree. It was a little tongue in cheek. We were 10 in pts allowed, 20.1 ppg.
'07 we were 5th in points allowed. 17.8 ppg is a good -very good number. Something to shoot for. Sub 20 ppg D gives the O a comfort zone.

[ChargersPowderBlue]

I prefer big DTs who can push the LOS and tackle to smaller, mobile pass rush types. I don’t care about pass rush from my DTs. I just want them to push the pocket backwards on passing plays. I want them to tie up the OL at the LOS so the LBs and S can keep clean and make tackles on rushing plays. I hate playing on our side of the LOS. I want the bigger, more physical DTs who can beat the crap out of the OL, not the little finesse guys who take the beating.

This gives me cheaper DTs (because they can’t pass rush) so I can spend more money on Edges to go get the QB.

Gotta manage the salary cap for maximum benefit.

You need DTs who can pass rush. Having just one good one isn't enough. That's been proven with this team time and time again.

But they will just hold on the interior too, and refs can get away with even fewer calls inside than the blatant non-calls they let slide that are out in the open on the edge.

Again, I agree coaches want to generate more pressure inside. The beauty of interior pressure is not just getting to the QB (sack), but collapsing the pocket so QB can’t step up and avoiding edge rushers, clogging throwing lanes, etc. Great value in interior pressure.

But extending that thought to interior DL are more important to pass rush than edge players is an over-extrapolation of that trend. Interior DL will continue to be heavier and bigger to hold up to rushing plays inside, and there is not going to be a new superfreak class of humans that are both heavier bigger and faster. Time to QB is still the metric and Edge players are still usually first.

2022 players with current designs, current trends, current schemes = 10 or top 11 sack leaders were edge. The outlier was Chris J, a super freak athlete who lines up everywhere and cannot be contained easily by anyone on the OL inside or out.

There are other good DL besides the big names. People only think of the ones like Aaron Donald or Chris Jones. There are many other good pass rushing DT besides the big names. You don't need the Aaron Donalds or Chris Jones. But if you have ones on the level of Morgan Fox it should be good. And having at least two of them will help the defense be much better. When the Bengals went to the Super Bowl, they had two good pass rushing DTs in Larry Ogunjobi and BJ Hill. The Titans have two good pass rushing DTs in Denico Autry and Jeffery Simmons, and Tennessee was the number 1 seed in the AFC in 2021. There are more examples than these that I stated.

Look up the top 10 DL Chris is listed #3. You can find several more difference makers that are not AS consistent as the top 10. QB pressure and run D by DL isn't a lost art. Some are better is all.

The team has had too many guys who are good in one of the two and not both. Vita Vea has improved; he's a good run defender and got better as a pass rusher. I wish Brendon Fehoko could improve like Vita Vea has. Right now he's lacking as a pass rusher. I hope Fehoko gets to where Vea is.

[dmac_bolt]

I barely remember this debate started as a post that inside pass rush is more important than edge rush, that it’s “the trend” yada yada.

I don’t know why it continues - that was wrong and proven wrong. IDL not more important to pass rush than edge. Edge rushers lead almost every team in sacks, Jones/KC was an outlier because he is a complete freak and KC had lousy edge rushers last year. Their next up in sacks was Karlaftis with only 6 sacks. The league stats are glaring - ALL of the top pass rushers are edge except for one unicorn.

one unicorn is not a trend, its a unicorn.

[Lefty2SLO]

I barely remember this debate started as a post that inside pass rush is more important than edge rush, that it’s “the trend” yada yada.

I don’t know why it continues - that was wrong and proven wrong. IDL not more important to pass rush than edge. Edge rushers lead almost every team in sacks, Jones/KC was an outlier because he is a complete freak and KC had lousy edge rushers last year. Their next up in sacks was Karlaftis with only 6 sacks. The league stats are glaring - ALL of the top pass rushers are edge except for one unicorn.

one unicorn is not a trend, its a unicorn.

This thread started as a discussion about creating pressure without elite edge pass rushers because of the way the NFL is (not) calling holding, and their (edge rusher's) price tags not living up to their performance. This concept extends to IDL as well, for the same reason. I get that edge rushers are the primary way the NFL currently gets pressure - the discussion was how to go away from this concept and still be successful.

Does it make sense to invest 40 to 50 mil in salary cap on a couple of edge rushers that (might) combine for 20 sacks in a season? Is this the best use of our resources?

[sonorajim]

The point I had hoped to make is three are better than 1 or 2 pass rushers. Two edge and a penetrating IDL can make blockers and the Q B sweat.
Having top edge guys makes a good 3T great. Fehoko was a UDFA JAG and has developed into a serviceable rotation player/ depth.Fox is good in rotation..We need a 3T who can stay out there with Bash and make a difference.

[Lefty2SLO]

The point I had hoped to make is three are better than 1 or 2 pass rushers. Two edge and a penetrating IDL can make blockers and the Q B sweat.
Having top edge guys makes a good 3T great. Fehoko was a UDFA JAG and has developed into a serviceable rotation player/ depth.Fox is good in rotation..We need a 3T who can stay out there with Bash and make a difference.

Yep - more good players is always better, but sooner or later they're going to want to get paid. Maybe 'best use of cap $$$'s' is to go the Fehoko route and coach 'em up?? But that means we need to be extremely good at drafting in the lower rounds (3rd & beyond) - not really been our strong suit . . . . .

And of course we need quality coaches to help them along . . . . . we haven't had that level of coaching in the past, not sure we have it now either.

[21&500]

Yep - more good players is always better, but sooner or later they're going to want to get paid. Maybe 'best use of cap $$$'s' is to go the Fehoko route and coach 'em up?? But that means we need to be extremely good at drafting in the lower rounds (3rd & beyond) - not really been our strong suit . . . . .

And of course we need quality coaches to help them along . . . . . we haven't had that level of coaching in the past, not sure we have it now either.

I think I'd be content with drafting edge guys regularly, rotating them and letting them walk for comp picks vs paying them.
at this point in the game's evolution, we need edge guys to set the edge, slow outsize zone runs and keep offenses honest.
sacks will come as the oline breaks down throughout the course of a game or through the opposing offenses mistakes..

Invest in savvy, durable DBs that can grow together and dictate passing lanes to opposing qbs. Focus on redzone defense with ballhawks.

[Lefty2SLO]

I think I'd be content with drafting edge guys regularly, rotating them and letting them walk for comp picks vs paying them.
at this point in the game's evolution, we need edge guys to set the edge, slow outsize zone runs and keep offenses honest.
sacks will come as the oline breaks down throughout the course of a game or through the opposing offenses mistakes..

Invest in savvy, durable DBs that can grow together and dictate passing lanes to opposing qbs. Focus on redzone defense with ballhawks.

And creative (selective) blitzing.

[powderblueboy]

This thread started as a discussion about creating pressure without elite edge pass rushers because of the way the NFL is (not) calling holding, and their (edge rusher's) price tags not living up to their performance. This concept extends to IDL as well, for the same reason. I get that edge rushers are the primary way the NFL currently gets pressure - the discussion was how to go away from this concept and still be successful.

Does it make sense to invest 40 to 50 mil in salary cap on a couple of edge rushers that (might) combine for 20 sacks in a season? Is this the best use of our resources?

The thread is about how to create pressure when everyone is being held?

You need three good pass rushers to get consistent pressure: two can be checked.

Remember when the Chargers had Leslie ONeil & Lee Williams, but drafted Burt Grossman in the 1rst?

I think Merlin Olsen commented on that saying that you need 3 good pass rushers: you can basically double two of them.
He didn't say that they all had to be edge rushers.

My stance is to get the most disruptive and don't focus on position.

[powderblueboy]

I think I'd be content with drafting edge guys regularly, rotating them and letting them walk for comp picks vs paying them.
at this point in the game's evolution, we need edge guys to set the edge, slow outsize zone runs and keep offenses honest.
sacks will come as the oline breaks down throughout the course of a game or through the opposing offenses mistakes..

Invest in savvy, durable DBs that can grow together and dictate passing lanes to opposing qbs. Focus on redzone defense with ballhawks.

That is not likely unless you are willing to spend a ton of draft capital to ensure you land 2 - 3 good pass rushers every 4 years.