Oh Boy...I'm gonna get nailed for this one.

[Gwynning_Spirit]

How long is he on the physically unable to post list?

[Bearded14YourPleasure]

Classic remark when you have no facts on your side. Butler has been utterly mediocre this season.

I agree that Butler has been mediocre this season, but I think he is still worth resigning just not at Lee money. He also hasn't had any help from the rest of our front 7 so I don't put all the blame on him. Our front 3 can barely handle 1on 1s and there has been no outside pressure outside Freeney, who is obviously done for the season. In the long haul it could work out for us because we can resign Butler to a contract he would be able to outplay.

[Beerman]

I agree that Butler has been mediocre this season, but I think he is still worth resigning just not at Lee money. He also hasn't had any help from the rest of our front 7 so I don't put all the blame on him. Our front 3 can barely handle 1on 1s and there has been no outside pressure outside Freeney, who is obviously done for the season. In the long haul it could work out for us because we can resign Butler to a contract he would be able to outplay.

I got no problem resigning him at a reduced cost. I am just tired of paying for potential and having bloated contracts with dead money on the books. The contract numbers that were being thrown around by a lot of people on the board were paying for potential. All of us obviously want him to take that next step into stardom, but that clearly hasn't happened yet and he's gotten injured yet again.

I have no issue paying him what he is worth. If he keeps producing at this rate, however, he's not worth the top contract his agent is looking for. I don't see how I am being out of line here. Any unbiased observer would come to the same conclusion based on his play.

[Bearded14YourPleasure]

I got no problem resigning him at a reduced cost. I am just tired of paying for potential and having bloated contracts with dead money on the books. The contract numbers that were being thrown around by a lot of people on the board were paying for potential. All of us obviously want him to take that next step into stardom, but that clearly hasn't happened yet and he's gotten injured yet again.

I have no issue paying him what he is worth. If he keeps producing at this rate, however, he's not worth the top contract his agent is looking for. I don't see how I am being out of line here. Any unbiased observer would come to the same conclusion based on his play.

Yeah totally agree. A mid range contract, preferably with some injury clauses, would be right on par with his performance so far this year.

[Panama]

Q, no offense intended, but this is one of the stupidest ideas you've ever posted!

One builds a team around a QB, and you're proposing rebuilding by dumping a young (yes, 31 is young for QBs) QB in his prime who has 7 good years (plus or minus 1) left???

No way!

The problem with this team is we have zero depth (except at WR, but that depth has been depleted by injuries). We all knew that going into the season, so most of us knew to expect a down year.

But we're not as far away as all that. Despite the dearth of talent on this roster, we have been competitive against some decent teams. We're still on track for a 7-9 season. We underperformed against a bad Raiders team on the road in unusual conditions (the late, late game), but don't lose your long term perspective because of that. This was a slash-and-burn year. We're getting rid of dead weight and adding talent. (It might be only second tier talent, but it's that second-tier talent that separates the great teams from the pretenders, because it's the second-tier talent that provides depth and support.) By as early as next year, with our offense, increased depth, and better experience, we have an outside shot at a wild card. In two seasons, we'll be legitiate contenders ... if we stay the course!

And don't discount the idea that somehow the shit we're trotting out this season won't be better for it next season. Look how much better Harris is than last season! If I'd only seen him play this season and you told me he was one of the worst OTs in history last season, I'd say no way. That's a testament to the importance of growth and development through playing time. A lot of our young players that seem worthless today will benefit from the experience gained this season and could prove reliable depth in the future, and with the increased flexibility as bloated contracts continue to be trimmed from the roster Telesco will have more room to maneuver to build a winner.

Trade River and we're staring at a decade of futility unless/until we find the next viable QB! I do not want us to be the new Oakland Raiders! Stay the course, and we'll suffer a down season or two followed by at least 5 solid years.

[Panama]

Look at my post in the thread where I tried (unsuccessfully) to name 15 NFL-starter-worthy players on our roster.

Just because you can't name them doesn't mean they're not there!

[Yubaking]

Because I think he is one of the few players on our team that is worth keeping. You tell me how many you think are our future. From your posts none in the front 7 (well other than Te'o and JJ). Also I think you focus way too much on FF stats rather than things that may be contributing to reduced production from players that played at a pretty high level last year. Last year we had a pretty good NT who was subbed by a NT who was pretty good in getting pressure on the QB. We get rid of that first guy and you don't expect any repercussions from that along the line because the second guy in now the first guy. Oh, we back that guy up with a UDFA player with a history of motivational issues who may or may not be active for us on game day. You have Butler playing next to a seasoned vet last year (OK, that vet was slow but he friggen knew what to do even if he couldn't quite get there). This year you have him starting next to either Bird or Te'o neither of which are very good. Think that doesn't have an effect? Add to that we have been weak at the OLB position. You know, they call it the front 7 for a reason. Finally, we have Reyes who was really only used on passing downs last year and this year is on the field a whole lot more. He wasn't considered good against the run last year which is why he didn't become a starter until an injury made him so.

Maybe the subtraction didn't lead to an addition for us on defense. Ever consider that?

The subtraction was just subtraction and it absolutely killed what was some pretty nice defensive depth. Now we get to play the likes of Marshall, Patrick, Bird, Keiser and the recently departed Wynn--a group that only their own mothers wouldn't recognize as anything more than pure garbage in terms of quality of play.

[Panama]

The subtraction was just subtraction and it absolutely killed what was some pretty nice defensive depth. Now we get to play the likes of Marshall, Patrick, Bird, Keiser and the recently departed Wynn--a group that only their own mothers wouldn't recognize as anything more than pure garbage in terms of quality of play.

You have to think beyond this season! If you focus only on the current product, you'll lose site of the goal. Yes, what we have out there is crap. It's untempered glass. Hopefully the tempering will make them quality backups (and weed out the ones that aren't cut out for it) and the freed up money from what we subtracted will over the next couple of seasons allow us to add better quality. It's a 3-season plan, clearly, so you shouldn't give too much weight to the first quarter of season 1.

[Yubaking]

Rivers is going nowhere and I think we all know that. If anything, the question is how long they extend him for after this season. What's funny is even when he was "broken", he was still the 11th ranked QB in the league last season. That means that 21 other starting QBs were worse than him - when he was "broken". He is now the 3rd ranked QB in the league with a decimated offensive line, his #1 and 2 receivers gone, no speed from the young WR left, a mediocre running game and no help at all from sporadic special teams and one of the worst defense in the league. Yeah, let's trade the best guy on the team...

You are preaching to the choir about Rivers. I also believe that he is the best player on the team and that his statistical decline in 2011 and 2012 had more to do with Norv's play calling and poor OL play than it ever had to do with Rivers.

The problem is that Telesco had a bad approach this offseason, which has taken the team way off course. Because the at least NFL roster worthy vets were not kept, we have no quality depth and no quality starters in many places. In fact, we have a Swiss cheese roster that is full of holes--more than this team has had in a decade.

Telesco has said that he wants to build primarily through the draft. If so, he is at least three strong drafts from having this team turned around to the point that it is a legitimate contender. That's 2016--at least. If you don't believe me, look at the quality depth we had on our recent strong teams (where, for example, Jammer and Cro were backed by Florence or Olshansky and Castillo were backed by Cesaire or LT was backed by Turner and Sproles, et cetera). Unless your team is the luckiest team on earth in terms of injuries, that's the kind of depth you need to win. Look at what we have now. How many quality players short do you count on offense and defense, counting players that are likely to leave in the next 1-2 years, who will also have to be replaced?

I count about 19. A good draft will get us 3-4 of those players per year. So three good drafts will get us 9-12, leaving us needing 6-9 solid free agents (like Dunlap, Cox, Woodhead and Rinehart). That's why I say that we are about three years away, which is 2016.

Rivers will turn 35 in that year. While I agree with those that argue that QBs can play much later than other NFL players, that thought needs to, in my view, be tempered with the fact that Rivers is not and never was a strong armed QB. Through normal aging, his arm strength should decline in his late 30s and Rivers is not Favre in terms of having a cannon, so he is not likely to play into his 40s. Montana, Marino and Warner all retired at 38. Even Horse Face retired at 39. So what we are talking about is about 3 good years with Rivers beginning in 2016, maybe only two if he is in already in decline the year he turns 37, which I am concerned about because unlike some QBs, he doesn't have the extra arm strength to make declining arm strength irrelevant. And believe me, I hate saying that with every part of my multiple Rivers jersey owning body.

Even still, I am not suggesting that we trade Rivers for nothing. The price I have put on Rivers is high to the point that two posters have suggested that we would never get offered that much for Rivers. From our team's perspective, would you do the TB trade that I have proposed involving Rivers (TB's first and second from 2014 and their first from 2015)? I would.

[Yubaking]

You have to think beyond this season! If you focus only on the current product, you'll lose site of the goal. Yes, what we have out there is crap. It's untempered glass. Hopefully the tempering will make them quality backups (and weed out the ones that aren't cut out for it) and the freed up money from what we subtracted will over the next couple of seasons allow us to add better quality. It's a 3-season plan, clearly, so you shouldn't give too much weight to the first quarter of season 1.

We will still have holes in 2015 unless Telesco loads up on free agents. All you have to do is look at the current holes and the ones that are likely to develop over the next couple of years to see the problem. I think we can have full quality depth by 2016 if we draft well over the next 3 years.

[QSmokey]

Q, no offense intended, but this is one of the stupidest ideas you've ever posted!

One builds a team around a QB, and you're proposing rebuilding by dumping a young (yes, 31 is young for QBs) QB in his prime who has 7 good years (plus or minus 1) left???

No way!

The problem with this team is we have zero depth (except at WR, but that depth has been depleted by injuries). We all knew that going into the season, so most of us knew to expect a down year.

But we're not as far away as all that. Despite the dearth of talent on this roster, we have been competitive against some decent teams. We're still on track for a 7-9 season. We underperformed against a bad Raiders team on the road in unusual conditions (the late, late game), but don't lose your long term perspective because of that. This was a slash-and-burn year. We're getting rid of dead weight and adding talent. (It might be only second tier talent, but it's that second-tier talent that separates the great teams from the pretenders, because it's the second-tier talent that provides depth and support.) By as early as next year, with our offense, increased depth, and better experience, we have an outside shot at a wild card. In two seasons, we'll be legitiate contenders ... if we stay the course!

And don't discount the idea that somehow the shit we're trotting out this season won't be better for it next season. Look how much better Harris is than last season! If I'd only seen him play this season and you told me he was one of the worst OTs in history last season, I'd say no way. That's a testament to the importance of growth and development through playing time. A lot of our young players that seem worthless today will benefit from the experience gained this season and could prove reliable depth in the future, and with the increased flexibility as bloated contracts continue to be trimmed from the roster Telesco will have more room to maneuver to build a winner.

Trade River and we're staring at a decade of futility unless/until we find the next viable QB! I do not want us to be the new Oakland Raiders! Stay the course, and we'll suffer a down season or two followed by at least 5 solid years.

Fleet, please ban Panama for calling my post stupid. Thank you.

I take no offense, of course. There are only 1-2 people, historically, on this board that I would have taken offense to for a post like that. You are not in that select list.

I agree that this is a slash and burn year; really a throwaway year, IMO. I still don't see this as a 7-9 win team; that's a preposterous notion to me. As I've said, I see MAYBE three more winnable games on the schedule: Jax, NYG, and Raiders. And the 'talent' we've amassed is underwhelming, at best. Love Fluker and Allen; but, other than those two...the cupboard is bare. Te'o...can't believe there was so much hype around that guy; he's invisible...and soon to be my next Jackhole and Muffews. So I gotta think up a clever, insulting nickname for him, I guess.

How 'bout Zer'o?

[Yubaking]

Fleet, please ban Panama for calling my post stupid. Thank you.

I take no offense, of course. There are only 1-2 people, historically, on this board that I would have taken offense to for a post like that. You are not in that select list.

I agree that this is a slash and burn year; really a throwaway year, IMO. I still don't see this as a 7-9 win team; that's a preposterous notion to me. As I've said, I see MAYBE three more winnable games on the schedule: Jax, NYG, and Raiders. And the 'talent' we've amassed is underwhelming, at best. Love Fluker and Allen; but, other than those two...the cupboard is bare. Te'o...can't believe there was so much hype around that guy; he's invisible...and soon to be my next Jackhole and Muffews. So I gotta think up a clever, insulting nickname for him, I guess.

How 'bout Zer'o?

What do you think of Te'ole'?