Jay Glazer: Chargers Have Officially Moved On From Rivers

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  • Originally posted by Critty View Post

    Wait just a minute.
    This was going to be a very interesting year.
    Rivers to Colts
    Brady to Bucs
    Cam to Patriots

    And commenting on any of these QBs is valid football talk. Especially comments from Chargers fans about Rivers going to a team with a great offensive line when so many fans said of he just had that he wouldn't have to force throws and his interceptions would not be as high.
    Then game 1 he tosses two picks. Which were converted into 10pts by opponent. And they lost by 7.

    And the so called Rivers haters....they are really huge Chargers fans that were tired of slow starts and too many turnovers by the franchise QB.
    And even though they many can agree the o line needed help, fans like myself refused to make it the scapegoat for all the 8-8 records and poor situational football decisions by Rivers.

    At some point the man with the rock has to find a way to lead his team to the win and into postseason consistently. And stop with the explainations and excuses.

    And what we saw was exactly what Lynn said....more games are lost because of turnovers than anything else.

    Chargers Turnovers - 0
    Bengals Turnovers - 2

    Jaguars Turnovers - 0
    Colts Turnovers - 2

    Lynn got what he wanted. Ball protection as the highest priority for his offense. And he won game 1 of the 2020 season. He is betting the house on ball protection this year. And let Rivers leave because he did not trust him to protect the rock.

    Lynn probably look at TT and Johnny and said see what happen week 1. Tyrod didn't turn it over and he won. Rivers did turn it over and lost. #K.I.S.S.



    I disagree with your take for several reasons.

    First, you are trying use a sample size of one game to determine how Rivers will play behind a better OL. I suspect his year end QB rating will be well above 88.7.

    Second, you are trying and failing to impute team results to the QBs when the player stats prove that Rivers had a much better game than Taylor. So, since that fact is objectively demonstrable, there must have been other reasons for the results that were achieved, reasons that you are completely ignoring in your quest to be a hater.

    Third, and along those lines, the Colts defense played horribly and the Chargers defense played well (and got lucky that Burrow missed multiple wide open TD passes). The Colts defense did not get two turnovers and you can't just assume that defensive takeaways will be consistent from week to week. If you assume the same defensive performance by both teams in an effort to isolate just the QB play last Sunday, do you still get the same result? No way.

    Fourth, your analysis of Rivers' blame for the impact of the turnovers is off. You discuss points off of turnovers as if the Colts would not have been giving Jacksonville the ball anyway on the next play if there had been incompletions instead of INTs. Both INTs were on 3rd down. If you use expected point differentials based upon starting field position and assume a net of about 40 yards on punts (a little more or less does not significantly change the analysis), you get an expected total point differential for both INTs combined of about 6 points versus the obvious 9-17 points that were left on the field by the offense, coaches, and special teams through no fault of Rivers. Assigning expected values from the turnovers, Rivers' performance even with the INTs should have produced a win with an expected margin of anywhere from 6-14 points, which is accomplished by reducing the margin from 7 to 3 (due to expected turnover value being lower) and adding back in the value of the screwups that were not Rivers fault--the 9 to 17 points.

    Fifth, given the narrow margin against the reigning worst team in the NFL, it is clear that if Taylor plays like he did on Sunday (as a bottom 5 QB), we will not be beating anyone else this season. You can go ahead and call the Lynn/Taylor offensive approach a success if you want, but I would call it a complete failure--virtually zero production against a terrible team with a terrible defense without its best player and a terrible offense (giving us possession after possession).

    Sixth, do not kid yourself. If Rivers were playing for the Chargers last Sunday, we win by 20+ points. While Rivers was completing 78.2% (36-46) of his passes for 363 yards, Taylor was completing 53.3% (16-30) of his passes for 208 yards. While focusing on INTs by Rivers, you completely ignore that his team turned the ball over on downs at the JAC 3 yard line, missed a 30 yard FG, and dropped multiple passes on the final drive, including the key 4th down drop by Hilton when Rivers had the Colts deep in Jacksonville territory with 48 seconds left and on the way to the game equalizing TD. While one can argue over whether or not Rivers is worth $25M, one cannot reasonably argue that Taylor is better than Rivers. The view that Taylor is better than Rivers is utterly ridiculous.

    Did you also think that the Tebow led Broncos won games because of Denver's great offense or are you able to see that those Broncos won games in spite of their bad offense just like we did on Sunday?

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Critty View Post

      Tyrod did not have the Colts o-line in front of him....so he didn't have that to work with. And from what has been stated repeatedly on this forum that was the biggest issue facing the Chargers QB for years. And Tyrod inherited that same problem and found a way to win his 1st start.

      Rivers got an oline finally....but I see you have found more excuses for him. I can't win this arguement if you move the targeted problem of o-line and point at a new targets to excuse the loss that Rivers lead his team into. So you win. Your right. And I'm wrong. Because I will always be wrong in this debate as long as the target keeps moving.
      What you conveniently refer to as "excuses" are the actual reasons why the Colts did not win last Sunday. Your analysis is to focus on two INTs and only two INTs, which is an utterly ridiculous take.

      The non-haters recognize that Rivers played a subpar game for him as it was only a league average performance, but it was a league average performance. You have overemphasized the negative value of the INTs attributable to Rivers (based upon expected field position differential analysis), completely ignored the very much above average components of Rivers' Sunday performance (which is what makes it a league average game even with the two INTs), and ignored the numerous other reasons that were the 1000% obvious causes of the loss.

      Which is worse--a QB that posts an 88.7 overall QB rating for a game (in the range of average) or a pass defense that surrenders a 95% completion percentage, 3 passing TDs, and an opposing QB rating over 140? Try being even a little bit objective.

      And while you are at it, do you concede that players/coaches other than Rivers were directly responsible for the loss of 9-17 points? Overall, Rivers was not great on Sunday, but he would have gotten the job done if it were not for the critical mistakes of others.

      As for Tyrod, he was playing against the reigning 29th ranked defense from last year that was without its best player. He posted a passer rating that was nearly 20 points lower than what that defense surrendered on average for all of last year. In short, he sucked, but the Chargers won in spite of his lousy performance.

      Comment

      • Critty
        Dominate the Day.
        • Mar 2019
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        Wow.
        The amount of excuses and spin and over explaining speaks for itself. Not to mention at no point have I or anyone else on this board said Tyrod is the better QB. So calling that ridiculous is arguing against a made up take that never happened.

        The point I have made was about o-line scapegoat vs QB play and protecting the rock.

        The Colts have the superior offensive line.
        Yet Rivers wettest dream was to have the much better Chargers O-line on Sunday that Tyrod had.
        Somehow everything went right for Tyrod while eveything went wrong for Rivers. Interesting.

        At the end of the Chargers/Bengals gameday thread I gave Rivers the game ball for taking the Charger curse to Indianapolis. What more do you want I gave Philip the game ball for petes sake.

        Who has it better than us?

        Comment

        • PR#1
          Registered Charger Fan
          • Aug 2019
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          Originally posted by wu-dai clan View Post
          Hopefully no one is trying to imply that it was not time to move on from Philip Rivers.

          This is mental masterbation.

          /thread
          I thought that was unanimously agreed to.

          This thread is more just for Charger fans who are wishing good luck to Rivers.

          But it seems some Charger fans are cheering for Rivers to fail. Even after Rivers has played for the Chargers for 16 years.

          Stay Classy San Diego !

          Comment

          • PR#1
            Registered Charger Fan
            • Aug 2019
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            Comment

            • PR#1
              Registered Charger Fan
              • Aug 2019
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              Originally posted by Critty View Post

              Wait just a minute.
              This was going to be a very interesting year.
              Rivers to Colts
              Brady to Bucs
              Cam to Patriots

              And commenting on any of these QBs is valid football talk. Especially comments from Chargers fans about Rivers going to a team with a great offensive line when so many fans said of he just had that he wouldn't have to force throws and his interceptions would not be as high.
              Then game 1 he tosses two picks. Which were converted into 10pts by opponent. And they lost by 7.

              And the so called Rivers haters....they are really huge Chargers fans that were tired of slow starts and too many turnovers by the franchise QB.
              And even though they many can agree the o line needed help, fans like myself refused to make it the scapegoat for all the 8-8 records and poor situational football decisions by Rivers.

              At some point the man with the rock has to find a way to lead his team to the win and into postseason consistently. And stop with the explainations and excuses.

              And what we saw was exactly what Lynn said....more games are lost because of turnovers than anything else.

              Chargers Turnovers - 0
              Bengals Turnovers - 2

              Jaguars Turnovers - 0
              Colts Turnovers - 2

              Lynn got what he wanted. Ball protection as the highest priority for his offense. And he won game 1 of the 2020 season. He is betting the house on ball protection this year. And let Rivers leave because he did not trust him to protect the rock.

              Lynn probably look at TT and Johnny and said see what happen week 1. Tyrod didn't turn it over and he won. Rivers did turn it over and lost. #K.I.S.S.



              You make it sound like Lynn is the Nostradamus and Yoda of coaches all rolled up into one. That he is so wise.

              Truth is he is a fair to middling Journey man head coach with no real offensive experience. Most head coaches are OC's or DC's with their own playbook. Lynn has none of that. He's just a running backs coach that gives Rah Rah speeches.

              Lynn said he didn't change the playbook much or at all for Tyrod. The real reason is he is incapable of doing so. All he does is take over offenses and continue to run them. He did that in the case of buffalo and what he did here for the Chargers, taking over for Whiz.

              But if what you say is true, and that he is such a great coach, then why doesn't "Johnny" give him a long term deal. He's getting extended one year at a time.

              Norv and even McCoy got one multi year deals. Why not Lynn ?

              Maybe its because "Johnny" sees what I am telling you. That Lynn is not the long term answer for this team.

              Again, why isn't Lynn getting a long term deal ?

              Comment

              • Critty
                Dominate the Day.
                • Mar 2019
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                Let me be clear.
                I want to see what happens.
                Rivers to Colts
                Brady to Bucs
                Cam to Patriots
                I don't care if they fail or succeed. None are Charger QB.

                My point has been....now that Rivers has a much better O-line .....lets see what happens.

                It only one week. But plenty of explanations about why Rivers was unlucky and the Colts team lost. And why Tyrod was lucky and Chargers won.

                I pointed to one thing. The same thing the Chargers HC Lynn who I fully support said. TURNOVERS!

                Rivers defenders seem to want Lynn fired.
                I don't get it. Rivers tied for his best passer rating in year 2 under Lynn. Rivers won a playoff game under Lynn. Other than last year, Rivers did well under Lynn. Lynn has a winning record in all other season he coached except 2019. Lynn just got his new franchise QB and is wisely letting him sit and learn.

                And yes. If Rivers fails to win enough games behind the Colts offensive line.....i don't want to hear any excuses for him. Because I am not buying any of them. And if he has a great year and wins a playoff game then it can be said see what happened with a good o-line in front of him. And I would agree.

                I just have my doubts aboutof Rivers will do well this year because in my opinion the o-line was getting scapegoated way too much and I believe that the man with the rock should be a bit more accountable for leading team to wins.

                So I won't explain anything away for the former Charger great. Bottom line for me....He tossed 2 picks and caught the L.
                Who has it better than us?

                Comment

                • Velo
                  Ride!
                  • Aug 2019
                  • 11172
                  • Everywhere
                  • Leave the gun, take the cannolis
                  • Send PM

                  Originally posted by Critty View Post
                  Let me be clear.
                  I want to see what happens.
                  Rivers to Colts
                  Brady to Bucs
                  Cam to Patriots
                  I don't care if they fail or succeed. None are Charger QB.

                  My point has been....now that Rivers has a much better O-line .....lets see what happens.

                  It only one week. But plenty of explanations about why Rivers was unlucky and the Colts team lost. And why Tyrod was lucky and Chargers won.

                  I pointed to one thing. The same thing the Chargers HC Lynn who I fully support said. TURNOVERS!

                  Rivers defenders seem to want Lynn fired.
                  I don't get it. Rivers tied for his best passer rating in year 2 under Lynn. Rivers won a playoff game under Lynn. Other than last year, Rivers did well under Lynn. Lynn has a winning record in all other season he coached except 2019. Lynn just got his new franchise QB and is wisely letting him sit and learn.

                  And yes. If Rivers fails to win enough games behind the Colts offensive line.....i don't want to hear any excuses for him. Because I am not buying any of them. And if he has a great year and wins a playoff game then it can be said see what happened with a good o-line in front of him. And I would agree.

                  I just have my doubts aboutof Rivers will do well this year because in my opinion the o-line was getting scapegoated way too much and I believe that the man with the rock should be a bit more accountable for leading team to wins.

                  So I won't explain anything away for the former Charger great. Bottom line for me....He tossed 2 picks and caught the L.
                  Wow Critter this is really well stated and pretty much in line with my point of view on this subject.

                  I just want emphasize the oft-state mantra that turnovers decide games.

                  Rivers made a lot of plays in his debut with the Colts, but threw a pair of picks, including one a late drive when his team had to score.

                  Tyrod is careful, manages the game, makes a few plays but is mostly conservative, doesn't turn the ball over once, the Chargers win the turnover battle +2.

                  I don't know if the Chargers are going to continue to win with that formula, but in a game in which the offense didn't exactly shine, not turning the ball over once is a refreshing change.

                  Comment

                  • wu-dai clan
                    Smooth Operation
                    • May 2017
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                    Originally posted by PR#1 View Post

                    I thought that was unanimously agreed to.

                    This thread is more just for Charger fans who are wishing good luck to Rivers.

                    But it seems some Charger fans are cheering for Rivers to fail. Even after Rivers has played for the Chargers for 16 years.

                    Stay Classy San Diego !
                    I agree with your take here, Sir !
                    We now have an entirely different QB.
                    ​​​​​The whole vibe is different.
                    Charger fans have always been big on style points.
                    ​​​​It is actually fascinating to study PR now.
                    But let's let go.
                    We do not play modern football.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Critty View Post
                      Wow.
                      The amount of excuses and spin and over explaining speaks for itself. Not to mention at no point have I or anyone else on this board said Tyrod is the better QB. So calling that ridiculous is arguing against a made up take that never happened.

                      The point I have made was about o-line scapegoat vs QB play and protecting the rock.

                      The Colts have the superior offensive line.
                      Yet Rivers wettest dream was to have the much better Chargers O-line on Sunday that Tyrod had.
                      Somehow everything went right for Tyrod while eveything went wrong for Rivers. Interesting.

                      At the end of the Chargers/Bengals gameday thread I gave Rivers the game ball for taking the Charger curse to Indianapolis. What more do you want I gave Philip the game ball for petes sake.
                      Again, there are no excuses, just an actual analysis of what happened. It might appear as "over explaining" next to your approach of offering zero meaningful analysis.

                      Your simplistic approach of "Rivers gave 'em 10 points" is a joke. What part did the Colts defense have? Neither INT was a pick-6. What part would have happened anyway since the Colts would have been punting had there not been INTs? They have charts that show expected point values based upon starting position. That is a much more meaningful analysis than pretending that the Colts defense did not have a role in allowing points or that the Jacksonville offense automatically would have scored zero points had there been punts instead of INTs. But your simplistic take completely ignores that reality. The chart indicates that the expected total point difference for both INTs combined was about 6 points, not 10 as you claim.

                      Your analysis might as well be that the Colts lost because their uniforms featured a darker blue given how devoid it is of anything other than one isolated factor that magically accounts for the results. It is just weak.

                      Why do you ignore the role of the Colts defense in the game? Why do ignore the lost points that Rivers had the team in position to score had it not been for the key mistakes of others?

                      I will tell you why. It does not fit your pre-ordained miserably incorrect position.

                      Further, everything did not go right for Tyrod. He was terrible. Our offense was almost unwatchable it was so bad. We won because our defense fended off series after series granted to our opponent because of the total ineptness of the offense against literally the reigning worst team in the in the NFL playing without its best defender and starting a rookie QB playing poorly in his first game. We won in spite of Tyrod's perfromance, not because of it.

                      We are not somehow a better team or offense with Tyrod at QB than we would have been with Rivers.

                      Given that things tend to the middle, I had thought we would win 6 games. That means that on paper I think we are worse than 6 wins, but we have more chances to turn an expected loss into a win than an expected win into a loss. With Rivers, we would be a playoff caliber team. However, if Tyrod plays like he did on Sunday, I think we will lose more than 10 games. In fact, I think it might be difficult for us to win any games at all if Tyrod plays like this.

                      Our defense plays well against KC's offense, but that was with our offense giving it a reprieve from time to time. Without that, next Sunday could easily be a three possession (17+ point) loss.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Critty View Post
                        Let me be clear.
                        I want to see what happens.
                        Rivers to Colts
                        Brady to Bucs
                        Cam to Patriots
                        I don't care if they fail or succeed. None are Charger QB.

                        My point has been....now that Rivers has a much better O-line .....lets see what happens.

                        It only one week. But plenty of explanations about why Rivers was unlucky and the Colts team lost. And why Tyrod was lucky and Chargers won.

                        I pointed to one thing. The same thing the Chargers HC Lynn who I fully support said. TURNOVERS!

                        Rivers defenders seem to want Lynn fired.
                        I don't get it. Rivers tied for his best passer rating in year 2 under Lynn. Rivers won a playoff game under Lynn. Other than last year, Rivers did well under Lynn. Lynn has a winning record in all other season he coached except 2019. Lynn just got his new franchise QB and is wisely letting him sit and learn.

                        And yes. If Rivers fails to win enough games behind the Colts offensive line.....i don't want to hear any excuses for him. Because I am not buying any of them. And if he has a great year and wins a playoff game then it can be said see what happened with a good o-line in front of him. And I would agree.

                        I just have my doubts aboutof Rivers will do well this year because in my opinion the o-line was getting scapegoated way too much and I believe that the man with the rock should be a bit more accountable for leading team to wins.

                        So I won't explain anything away for the former Charger great. Bottom line for me....He tossed 2 picks and caught the L.
                        Nobody is saying Rivers was unlucky. I am saying that your position that turnovers were the only story to be told is beyond ridiculous. Start with this--Rivers, even with the two INTs, played better at QB than Tyrod did. That is an objective reality based upon all factors combined, including INTs, passer rating, completion percentage, yards, YPA, TDs, etc. PFF also confirms that reality.

                        So, if Tyrod's team won and Rivers' team lost, we should all be able to agree that the real reasons for the difference in the results that each team had were factors other than play at the QB position.

                        That is the real bottom line.

                        Comment

                        • richpjr
                          Registered Charger Fan
                          • Jun 2013
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                          • Nashville
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                          Originally posted by Critty View Post
                          Let me be clear.
                          Rivers defenders seem to want Lynn fired.
                          People want to move on from Lynn, regardless of what Rivers does.

                          Comment

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