The Problem With OL Coaching Today

[wu-dai clan]

Agree with the ceteris paribus...

:shifty:

[Steve]

We need to stop the Ogden to Becton comparisons. Ogden was a much more athletic and mobile player than Becton. It's not really even close.

That is not to say, for a big man, Becton is bad. For a guy 30-50 lbs lighter, Becton is very mobile. They way he explodes off the line to get to the 2nd level is just scary if you are on D.

What Becton is missing is the agility to adjust, and change direction. He does those things, but he isn't that special. Like I said in my review, he is really poor at adjusting and reacting to smaller players in space. He cannot cut people. Both are the kind of thing that Ogden did with ease. Time will tell how well he does, but he should continue to improve in those areas, the more he does them.

The one thing Becton does that is probably better than Ogden is drive block. Ogden was the better drive blocker, but he had to really sink his hips and bend his knees. Becton is similar in the results he gets but he isn't getting as low, and isn't getting the knee bend that Ogden did. Becton just has better functional strength and that was something that Ogden did well. If Becton can improve his flexibility and technique, he can be a Larry Allen type drive blocker/pull and lead guy that blows the biggest, stoutest guys off the ball play after play.

I am a little torn as to which would be his better position, OG, because if he improves and plays lower no one could hold up against him, or OT, because he can pass protect the edge so well. Either way, if he gets the right coaching and ends up in the right scheme, he should be a really good player for a long time.

[like54ninjas]

E

We need to stop the Ogden to Becton comparisons. Ogden was a much more athletic and mobile player than Becton. It's not really even close.

That is not to say, for a big man, Becton is bad. For a guy 30-50 lbs lighter, Becton is very mobile. They way he explodes off the line to get to the 2nd level is just scary if you are on D.

What Becton is missing is the agility to adjust, and change direction. He does those things, but he isn't that special. Like I said in my review, he is really poor at adjusting and reacting to smaller players in space. He cannot cut people. Both are the kind of thing that Ogden did with ease. Time will tell how well he does, but he should continue to improve in those areas, the more he does them.

The one thing Becton does that is probably better than Ogden is drive block. Ogden was the better drive blocker, but he had to really sink his hips and bend his knees. Becton is similar in the results he gets but he isn't getting as low, and isn't getting the knee bend that Ogden did. Becton just has better functional strength and that was something that Ogden did well. If Becton can improve his flexibility and technique, he can be a Larry Allen type drive blocker/pull and lead guy that blows the biggest, stoutest guys off the ball play after play.

I am a little torn as to which would be his better position, OG, because if he improves and plays lower no one could hold up against him, or OT, because he can pass protect the edge so well. Either way, if he gets the right coaching and ends up in the right scheme, he should be a really good player for a long time.

Do I read you right? You think Mekhi is 30#-50# lighter than Ogden?
I think Becton’s measured length will surpass Jon.

I agree about continued technique work. Handstrike placement, weight transfer to inside drive leg, spatial awareness orientation, ability to reset feet/reanchor are all inconsistent. I challenge on his ability to perform cut blocks effectively. I’ve noted multiple times where he performs reach cut to an inside 3T and an almost impossible cut on a 1T in 19 Kentucky game alone (If memory serves).

He has started to change his body composition, continuing this further unlocks his natural agility and athleticism. Mix in some yoga for increased flexibility for better knee bend. I see his ideal in-season weight about 335#-340# with probably another 5%-8% reduction in body fat.

Agree as with most prospects; the right place, organization, staff, etc definitely play a part.
Agree he will be a darn good player for a long time.

[wu-dai clan]

Becton's improvements and hard work
add to my confidence in selecting him at #6.

Jon Ogden. Larry Allen. Either comp--and we are talking talent level + playing style here--gives us a player who changes our Oline prospectus entirely...and it is a perfect Anthony Lynn selection, with either Tyrod or Easton at the helm.

Frankly, the TrenchTalk is getting a little too nuanced. As though the Trenchers need more ammo to speak out.

Mekhi Becton makes big, grown men get out of the way with unprecedented athleticism.

Technique will follow, and that will not be a problem.

[Steve]

There have been plenty of athletic super athlete types on OL and DL who never develop. I don't even think the ability is the key ingredient. I can't tell you what it is, but when some team figures it out, they will be able to cash in. One would think if it was just a matter of identifying the particular measureable or observable skills, then drafting would be easy. Yet the success rate is generally considered pretty low (less than 50% of first rounders being successful).

Again, looking at the guys we have, they have the physical traits needed to be successful. So far, they are not. So obvious, it takes more to it than that to be successful as an NFL player (that generalization probably applies to every position).

[Steve]

E

Do I read you right? You think Mekhi is 30#-50# lighter than Ogden?
I think Becton’s measured length will surpass Jon.

I agree about continued technique work. Handstrike placement, weight transfer to inside drive leg, spatial awareness orientation, ability to reset feet/reanchor are all inconsistent. I challenge on his ability to perform cut blocks effectively. I’ve noted multiple times where he performs reach cut to an inside 3T and an almost impossible cut on a 1T in 19 Kentucky game alone (If memory serves).

He has started to change his body composition, continuing this further unlocks his natural agility and athleticism. Mix in some yoga for increased flexibility for better knee bend. I see his ideal in-season weight about 335#-340# with probably another 5%-8% reduction in body fat.

Agree as with most prospects; the right place, organization, staff, etc definitely play a part.
Agree he will be a darn good player for a long time.

You are reading that wrong. Becton is more athletic than a lot of OL, many of whom are 30-50 lbs lighter. Ogden and Becton are athletic freaks.

As far as length goes, it is not necessarily clear length is of much, if any advantage for OL.

I didn't see the Kentucky game, so I wouldn't know. I only watched the BC and ND games, and in those he was awful at cutting players. He misses over and over again. It might be worth it to watch other games, but remember the guys he is going to have to cut in the NFL will be bigger, faster and quicker too.

Time will tell on his ideal weight. But as pointed out before, he wouldn't be the 1st guy to eat his way out of the NFL.

Plenty of huge guys just never really are able to figure out the weight thing. People eat shitty food because it is cheap or quick (or both). Then even if their circumstances change have poor habits to fall back on. There is a reason so many NFL teams now have dietitians on staff, and most others have outside groups consulting with the conditioning staff.

There is still risk no matter how good a guy looks. Remember Chris Mims. He turned himself into the ideal LDE for the Chargers in their SB year. He was the prototype. Showed up the next season hugely overweight and was never the same player.

A friend of my brothers from when they coached together, was a former NO saints TE. He said in the couple of years in the NFL, you could often tell who would make it and who wouldn't by their attitude. If they treated the NFL like a real job, showing up on time in the morning and staying through the day, they had a good chance. But too many guys do just what the coaches tell them to, so they get in and out pretty quickly, and have a lot more free time. But so many of them have gotten by just doing what the coaches asked on them over the years, that by the time they realize they need to do way more, it is too late. I don't think that completely captures it, but maybe some of it.

[JPPT1974]

Yeah as really it is about trying to beef up the O.L. And in trying to protect the QB. Let the RB run. Not just athletic but clever to the core.

[gzubeck]

Becton is currently rated overall as the 16th player in the draft. If we are to take a tackle it might be best served to move down 5-6 spots and grab one of the tackles there if not sold on a player at #6.

[like54ninjas]

You are reading that wrong. Becton is more athletic than a lot of OL, many of whom are 30-50 lbs lighter. Ogden and Becton are athletic freaks.

As far as length goes, it is not necessarily clear length is of much, if any advantage for OL.

I didn't see the Kentucky game, so I wouldn't know. I only watched the BC and ND games, and in those he was awful at cutting players. He misses over and over again. It might be worth it to watch other games, but remember the guys he is going to have to cut in the NFL will be bigger, faster and quicker too.

Time will tell on his ideal weight. But as pointed out before, he wouldn't be the 1st guy to eat his way out of the NFL.

Plenty of huge guys just never really are able to figure out the weight thing. People eat shitty food because it is cheap or quick (or both). Then even if their circumstances change have poor habits to fall back on. There is a reason so many NFL teams now have dietitians on staff, and most others have outside groups consulting with the conditioning staff.

There is still risk no matter how good a guy looks. Remember Chris Mims. He turned himself into the ideal LDE for the Chargers in their SB year. He was the prototype. Showed up the next season hugely overweight and was never the same player.

A friend of my brothers from when they coached together, was a former NO saints TE. He said in the couple of years in the NFL, you could often tell who would make it and who wouldn't by their attitude. If they treated the NFL like a real job, showing up on time in the morning and staying through the day, they had a good chance. But too many guys do just what the coaches tell them to, so they get in and out pretty quickly, and have a lot more free time. But so many of them have gotten by just doing what the coaches asked on them over the years, that by the time they realize they need to do way more, it is too late. I don't think that completely captures it, but maybe some of it.

We agree that Ogden and Becton are athletic freaks.

I get some prospects/players bust/fail because of a variety of reasons. Excluding injury most that make it to the NFL fail because of some dependency issue, personality flaw, or personal drive.

The team will have access to get to know the prospects personally. I do not. I base my evaluations, rankings, projections on what I have access to game film, physical measurements, and athleticism metrics.

Thanks for the suggestion on “It might be worth it to watch other games”. I will give it the attention it is due. In fact, probably a good idea for you to do the same.

[Steve]

We agree that Ogden and Becton are athletic freaks.

I get some prospects/players bust/fail because of a variety of reasons. Excluding injury most that make it to the NFL fail because of some dependency issue, personality flaw, or personal drive.

The team will have access to get to know the prospects personally. I do not. I base my evaluations, rankings, projections on what I have access to game film, physical measurements, and athleticism metrics.

Thanks for the suggestion on “It might be worth it to watch other games”. I will give it the attention it is due. In fact, probably a good idea for you to do the same.

You say that there is a lot more information available for NFL teams. Definitely true. Yet 50% of NFL teams can't make the obvious 1st round pick correctly. After that the success rate starts to fall off fast with every round. To me that suggests that NFL are not making any better use of that information.

The best strategy may be to simply trade down and draft as many players as possible, unloading players to try to get as much in trade as possible.

FWIW, people have looked at teams that have tried this, and anecdotally, there is NO evidence to suggest this actually works. It seems like it is largely a crap shoot.

[Budsman]

The problem is that college coaches use the spread systems to "simplify" their teaching. They simply do not coach OL on the fundamental skills the way the NFL needs them too. So, while college pass rusher, QB and Receivers all benefit from the spread system, the OL doesn't.

Most college teams prefer "vertical set technique" while NFL teams prefer "kick stepping".

Vertical Set - backpedal fast, get as much depth, then hope that you can play lower than the DL who is now upright. It kinda resembles running for your life.

http://brophyfootball.blogspot.com/2...tical-set.html

Kick Step - play the angles and engage the DL early. Then when you have thwarted the move, he is stalemated.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OKTWMa8UfPQ

Jim McNally, one of the early technician type OL coaches in football.

In the NFL, if the D plays press coverage, then the QB has to wait for the WR to get open, NFL caliber pass rushers have the OL back in the QB face or the QB is running for their life. Penetration kills offensive football, and the vertical set is ALLOWING the D to penetrate. A lot of staple college plays simply don't work well in the NFL because guys are too big and too fast, and college rely a LOT on just putting super athletic and fast guys in space. Which of course is the point of spreading everyone out in the first place, so that you wouldn't have to block them.

College coaches will counter that running backwards is a lot easier to teach and anyone can do it. If that sounds suspicious, then you are probably right. It works well enough in college, because for the most part most college players aren't very good athletes.

None of this it to minimize the problems the Chargers have on the OL. I put this thread together because so many people seem to minimize the issues with just going out and trying to draft the fixes, but that may not work. So many college teams play spread that you are basically being forced to teach your OL from scratch.

Seattle even went so far as to stop drafting OL. They would draft former college DL who were not going to be able to make the step up to being pro DL, and were good athletes, and then Tom Cable would simply train them to be OL instead. He felt like he was basically starting from scratch anyway, although he wasn't particularly successful at developing either.

As a youth coach I can tell you they aren’t doing a good job of teaching Oline fundamentals there either.

[gzubeck]

As a youth coach I can tell you they aren’t doing a good job of teaching Oline fundamentals there either.

With our coaching staff they have a hard time finding their cars in an empty parking lot after work. :>)