Justin Herbert - Bolts Franchise QB Official Discussion

[CanadianBoltFan]

Yes, it is my opinion that Rivers threw a more accurate ball. I'm not the only one who thinks that. I provided legitimate reasons unrelated to accuracy that factored into why Rivers' completion percentage was 1.7 points lower than Herbert's currently is. A 1.7 completion percentage difference is not nearly as dramatic as 5.2 points, which is the current difference between Geno Smith and Justin Herbert this season. Your argument in that regard sucked. There are also a number of other factors unrelated to accuracy that go into interceptions, such as a wide receiver running the wrong route, a quarterback making a poor decision, there being little time on the clock in a tight game and the quarterback trying to force a pass into a completion that ends up getting picked off, etc.

Rivers did miss throws. All quarterbacks do. I just didn't see it as often as I do with Herbert now. I also think he was more accurate on intermediate throws, and Dan Fouts, Rivers' biggest critic, even said Rivers threw the best deep ball in the NFL in 2010.

You can hear it here yourself on the first play of this game, in which Rivers was playing without Antonio Gates, Malcom Floyd, and Vincent Jackson. Two touchdowns each to Seyi Ajirotutu and Randy McMichael. Not exactly Pro Bowlers there: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3apThLplKpI

How did my argument suck lol. I am the only one here providing numbers. Spin it all you want but Rivers is behind Herbert in all 3 categories of interception rate, completion % and QB rating

I am also keeping the comparison to Rivers and Herbert, not bringing inall kinds of other QBs. Who cares if Geno Smith has a better completion rate than Herbert one season. He also has a TD/Int rate of 17/15 to Herberts 21/3. That is a one season sample size to boot, when we are looking at the numbers I provided over a career, in Herberts case 5 years, things tend to balance out and you get an idea of how consistent a QB is. If anything the lead Herbert has over Rivers in completion % and QB rating will grow now that Herbert actually has his first competent coaching staff after 5 years.

[DerwinBosa]

How did my argument suck lol. I am the only one here providing numbers. Spin it all you want but Rivers is behind Herbert in all 3 categories of interception rate, completion % and QB rating

I am also keeping the comparison to Rivers and Herbert, not bringing inall kinds of other QBs. Who cares if Geno Smith has a better completion rate than Herbert one season. He also has a TD/Int rate of 17/15 to Herberts 21/3. That is a one season sample size to boot, when we are looking at the numbers I provided over a career, in Herberts case 5 years, things tend to balance out and you get an idea of how consistent a QB is. If anything the lead Herbert has over Rivers in completion % and QB rating will grow now that Herbert actually has his first competent coaching staff after 5 years.

In 2021 Herbert ranked 18th in completion percentage and had the third most interceptions. According to you, he must have been very inaccurate that year. Others would say that was his best passing season. That's one of many reasons why your argument sucked.

There is no disagreement from me that Herbert will improve and eventually have a better career than Rivers. I don't think he is better now than Rivers was, which isn't nearly as ridiculous to say as you are making it out.

[CanadianBoltFan]

In 2021 Herbert ranked 18th in completion percentage and had the third most interceptions. According to you, he must have been very inaccurate that year. Others would say that was his best passing season. That's one of many reasons why your argument sucked.

There is no disagreement from me that Herbert will improve and eventually have a better career than Rivers. I don't think he is better now than Rivers was, which isn't nearly as ridiculous to say as you are making it out.

Now that you have clarified its not ridicuous at all. Of course Rivers full body of work by the time he retired at 37 is still ahead of a young 26 year old QB only 5 years in. For that reason the whole comparison thing doesnt really make sense. I think what we see from Herbert in ages 26-32 is going to be extremely impressive. if you are not already imporessed by all the NFL records he has broken. I dont remember Rivers doing that, breakling records

[DerwinBosa]

Now that you have clarified its not ridicuous at all. Of course Rivers full body of work by the time he retired at 37 is still ahead of a young 26 year old QB only 5 years in. For that reason the whole comparison thing doesnt really make sense. I think what we see from Herbert in ages 26-32 is going to be extremely impressive. if you are not already imporessed by all the NFL records he has broken. I dont remember Rivers doing that, breakling records

You're downplaying how great Rivers was from 2008-2010. As I said before, I thought he should have been the MVP in 2008, and he was great in 2009 and 2010. It's not ridiculous to say Rivers was better during that time than Herbert is now. With the highest yards per attempt in all three years, Rivers had 92 touchdown passes to only 33 interceptions. His passer ratings were 105.5, 104.4, and 101.1. That's better than what I've seen from Herbert.

I have said during this entire argument that Herbert will probably have a better career than Rivers.

[CanadianBoltFan]

You're downplaying how great Rivers was from 2008-2010. As I said before, I thought he should have been the MVP in 2008, and he was great in 2009 and 2010. It's not ridiculous to say Rivers was better during that time than Herbert is now. With the highest yards per attempt in all three years, Rivers had 92 touchdown passes to only 33 interceptions. His passer ratings were 105.5, 104.4, and 101.1. That's better than what I've seen from Herbert.

I have said during this entire argument that Herbert will probably have a better career than Rivers.

How old was Rivers in 2008-2010? I am going to guess those were his 26, 27, 28, 29 year old seasons...somewhere in that range...his prime. Just what Justin is entering.

You could say those seasons are better than aything Justin has done so far, mind you Rivers never threw for 5000 yards. That is a very exclusive QB club.

[DerwinBosa]

How old was Rivers in 2008-2010? I am going to guess those were his 26, 27, 28, 29 year old seasons...somewhere in that range...his prime. Just what Justin is entering.

You could say those seasons are better than aything Justin has done so far, mind you Rivers never threw for 5000 yards. That is a very exclusive QB club.

Rivers was in his fifth season in 2008. Herbert is in his fifth season now. From the beginning this was brought up, I said Rivers was better in 2008 than Herbert is now.

Herbert threw 672 passes in 2021, the year he had over 5,000 yards. Rivers didn't have over 500 passing attempts until 2010. He threw 541 passes that year and finished with 4,710 yards. I think if he threw another 131 passes he would have eclipsed Herbert's 5,014 yards. He also played only 16 games that year to Herbert's 17 in 2021

[AKFlyFisher]

Rivers would have been destroyed -- physically -- in the current NFL. QBs must be mobile, and he simply lacked the mobility. Further, while Rivers was smart, he was not always the best at processing and at times devolved to hero throws. I loved Rivers and his release. He threw a very catchable ball. But, talent-wise, Herbert is leagues better. In advanced metrics -- QBR or good old fashioned QB ratings -- Herbert appears better. Rivers had some dreadful QB rating years. Rivers' 2009 and 2013 seasons were amazing -- and there is no telling how Herbert performs at 28 and 32 respectively. Saying that, how awesome is it to be a Chargers fan and comparing Rivers and Herbert. I have to imagine that some teams would love to have just one of those two in their team history.

[jamrock]

How old was Rivers in 2008-2010? I am going to guess those were his 26, 27, 28, 29 year old seasons...somewhere in that range...his prime. Just what Justin is entering.

You could say those seasons are better than aything Justin has done so far, mind you Rivers never threw for 5000 yards. That is a very exclusive QB club.

In those "prime" Rivers years the rest of the AFC West was a dumpster fire.

[DerwinBosa]

Rivers would have been destroyed -- physically -- in the current NFL. QBs must be mobile, and he simply lacked the mobility. Further, while Rivers was smart, he was not always the best at processing and at times devolved to hero throws. I loved Rivers and his release. He threw a very catchable ball. But, talent-wise, Herbert is leagues better. In advanced metrics -- QBR or good old fashioned QB ratings -- Herbert appears better. Rivers had some dreadful QB rating years. Rivers' 2009 and 2013 seasons were amazing -- and there is no telling how Herbert performs at 28 and 32 respectively. Saying that, how awesome is it to be a Chargers fan and comparing Rivers and Herbert. I have to imagine that some teams would love to have just one of those two in their team history.

Rivers' ability to avoid sacks inside the pocket was right up there with Tom Brady's. I'll also note that Brady was never mobile, and he was 43 when he won a Super Bowl with the Buccaneers, after throwing for 4,633 yards, 40 touchdowns, and 12 interceptions during the 2020 regular season. He was 44 the next season, 2021, when he threw for 5,316 yards, 43 touchdowns, and 12 interceptions and led the Bucs to the Divisional Round.

There are plenty of strictly pocket passers in the NFL today doing just fine. Baker Mayfield, Jared Goff, C.J. Stroud, and Sam Darnold are among them. Considering Mayfield has a career-high 39 touchdown passes this season, which to me is absolutely ludicrous for a quarterback of his talent, and Darnold is suddenly a top ten quarterback this year, Rivers in his prime would have done quite well now.

[dmac_bolt]

Did I say he was better than Geno Smith? No, I said it's a stupid argument to say one quarterback is more accurate than another based on completion percentage. I asked if you think Smith is more accurate than Herbert, since he currently has a completion percentage of 70.2 to Herbert's 65 this season. I don't think Smith is more accurate than Herbert at all. I think Herbert is much more accurate than Smith. So I'll ask again...do you think Smith is more accurate than Herbert? If not, then you shouldn't say Herbert is more accurate than Rivers based on their completion percentages.

I said I don't have any problem with Herbert's toughness. I think he's currently one of the toughest quarterbacks in the NFL. He's not as tough as Rivers was, in my opinion. Why is that an issue?

I said it's debatable to say Herbert going from Lynn to Staley and Steichen to Lombardi to Moore to Roman is more difficult than going from Marty (close to a Hall of Fame head coach) to an absolute failure of a head coach in Norv Turner. Norv had one playoff appearance in nine years with Washington and Oakland. Rivers went to an AFC Championship Game (and could have won a Super Bowl if he hadn't gotten injured) and three division titles with Norv. That's a great accomplishment that you and others are downplaying because you don't want to give Rivers credit.

Rivers played with two offensive teammates who were Hall of Fame caliber. Tomlinson played like a Hall of Famer in 2006 and 2007 (until the 2007 postseason). In 2008 it was very clear that Tomlinson was on the decline and it was Rivers' team. Rivers played a bigger role in our division titles in 2008 and 2009. I think Rivers should have been the league MVP in 2008. Gates should have been a first-ball Hall of Famer, but he wasn't an elite tight end from 2011 on. I also mentioned how well Rivers played in 2010 in spite of Gates, Vincent Jackson, Marcus McNeil, Malcom Floyd, and Louis Vasquez each missing 5+ games. Additionally, Herbert wasn't deprived with weapons when he had Keenan Allen, Mike Williams, and Austin Ekeler his first four seasons and Hunter Henry for one season.

Rivers played poorly against the Patriots in the 2006 postseason and the Jets in the 2009 playoffs. Other than that, I don't have a problem with the way he played in the postseason. It's also understandable, because Belichick made Peyton Manning, Ben Roethlisberger, and other quarterbacks his bitch in the postseason, and Rex Ryan's defense upset Peyton Manning and Tom Brady in the 2010 postseason. I don't blame Herbert for the defense collapsing against Jacksonville. I do blame him for overthrowing Keenan Allen in the end zone as if he was Manute Bol in the first half, and not leading the offense to more points in the second half. Jacksonville was nowhere near the overall powerhouse New England was, nor its defense as formidable as the 2009 Jets, so your criticisms of Rivers while giving Herbert a pass for failing against Jacksonville is not fair.

You discounted Herbert’s completion % by pointing to Geno. I figure you must think Geno is better or why would you do that? What was your point? Herbert had a high pressure rate. The years when Rivers got that same pressure he did not perform close to the Rivers you so fondly remember. No QB does or would.

one reason you claimed Rivers was better is because he was tougher. you double downed on it, you tripled it here again. I ask how Herbert is not as tough and you got nothing. zero backup. Rivers was tougher because he played with a torn ACL. Ok - sure, he played one game and lost. Herbert played an entire season with broken ribs. Herbert has never missed a game for lack of toughness ever. I simply call bullshit on your toughness claims of Rivers superiority.

You can’t understand that playing with Norv as his OC and then Norv as his HC with the exact same offense is easier for the QB than 4 different OCs with 4 different offensive schemes in 5 years, you seem to think thats the same. i can’t debate that further, your view makes no rational sense.

My take on Gates is he wasnt a 1st ballot HOF because of PEDs. Herbert

Herbert had one year where MDub and Slayer both played significant games together. They went to the playoffs. Staley got Mdub hurt before the game. Every other year one or both of them was hurt for large spans. I don’t know if you’re revisiting who had better rosters overall, it has always been clear the Rivers playoff years he had far better teams overall. Herbert hasn’t even had the best team in his own division once.

I’m starting to think we are not going to agree on this

[DerwinBosa]

You discounted Herbert’s completion % by pointing to Geno. I figure you must think Geno is better or why would you do that? What was your point? Herbert had a high pressure rate. The years when Rivers got that same pressure he did not perform close to the Rivers you so fondly remember. No QB does or would.

I was pointing out how a higher completion percentage doesn't necessarily mean a quarterback is more accurate than one who has a lower completion percentage. THAT WAS THE POINT, and I drove it home by showing how a much less accurate passer such as Geno Smith currently has a much higher completion percentage than Justin Herbert. You are so sensitive when it comes to Herbert that you miss the point on several occasions.

one reason you claimed Rivers was better is because he was tougher. you double downed on it, you tripled it here again. I ask how Herbert is not as tough and you got nothing. zero backup. Rivers was tougher because he played with a torn ACL. Ok - sure, he played one game and lost. Herbert played an entire season with broken ribs. Herbert has never missed a game for lack of toughness ever. I simply call bullshit on your toughness claims of Rivers superiority.

No, I didn't say he was better because he was tougher. I think Rivers was tougher than Tom Brady and Peyton Manning, too, and I would never say he was better than either of them. (You, on the other hand, told me a few years back that Herbert was better than Patrick Mahomes, which was not true then or now, and probably never will be). I also NEVER said that Herbert is not tough. I said he's one of the toughest quarterbacks currently in the NFL. I'm sorry if that's not good enough for you. Yes, Rivers ultimately proved his toughness by playing one week after tearing his ACL and MCL. Name another quarterback who has ever done that. You can't, because it has never happened, nor will it probably ever happen again. When that happens to every other quarterback, their season is DONE. He risked his career by doing that. As I mentioned before, he also played with serious injuries to his back and ribs in 2014, which most quarterbacks would have sat out the season with. He played through a Lisfranc injury against the Patriots in the 2006 playoffs. He played through a severe turf toe during his final season with the Colts. This has all already been written by me and Boltjolt in his very thread you so strangely decided to slam Rivers in when this same conversation was going on in another thread.

You can’t understand that playing with Norv as his OC and then Norv as his HC with the exact same offense is easier for the QB than 4 different OCs with 4 different offensive schemes in 5 years, you seem to think thats the same. i can’t debate that further, your view makes no rational sense.

You, yourself, have stated that Norv Turner was made as an offensive coordinator by the Hall of Fame players in Dallas. No one can deny that he sucked as a head coach. So, no, it wasn't a good situation when Norv Turner was hired to replace Marty. Let's put it this way so you can better understand it: after firing Anthony Lynn following the 2020 season, if Spanos had hired a two-time failure as a head coach just because he ran the same offense that Shane Steichen used for Herbert, would you be happy?

I’m starting to think we are not going to agree on this

No, we're not. Believe it or not, I do like Herbert a lot. I think he's an excellent human being. He's the most physically gifted quarterback we have ever had. I think there are things he needs to improve on, and he needs to accomplish more before I say he's better than Rivers, but I believe it will happen under Harbaugh. But it's debates like this that make me not a fan of quarterbacks in general in this current era. This debate got started in the Patriots game thread because you lost your cool after someone pointed out that Herbert once again overthrew a wide open receiver. Some fans get too emotionally attached to elite quarterbacks on their favorite teams, to the point that they can't handle any criticism about them, even when it's true. You have shown you can't accept any constructive criticism that is directed at Herbert. You seem to be more emotionally attached to Herbert than any other player on this current team--and maybe you are more emotionally attached to him than any other player you have ever rooted for and will ever root for. That's fine, but it gets annoying when people like you can't accept other opinions that don't match yours about Herbert. While I like him a lot, I don't have that emotional attachment to Herbert, and it gets on my nerves when fans put down current or former players to make Herbert look better. There were a handful of people on this forum who blamed Joshua Palmer for Herbert's overthrow in the loss to Kansas City, even though it was clearly Herbert who fucked up. To me, that is unacceptable. My favorite players are obviously Derwin and Bosa (and Joe Alt is getting to be one of my favorite players), but I have absolutely no issue with others providing constructive criticism toward them, like when they point out how Bosa jumps offsides too often (it pisses me the fuck off when he does that), and I would never blame another player for a mistake either of them made. I also wouldn't lose my cool if someone said Leslie O'Neal was better than Bosa (I actually agree with that, even though I like Joey more).

This doesn't happen in only this forum or fan base, by the way. Years ago I got into an argument with a Broncos fan after he said Peyton Manning deserved no blame for Denver's blowout loss to Seattle in the Super Bowl. It's the way the game is presented and watched now. Unfortunately, it's all about the quarterbacks, and the other positions get disrespected, which is why a dominant player such as Patrick Willis didn't get in as a first-ball Hall of Famer and Eli Manning is currently a finalist in his first year of eligibility for the Hall right now.

[CanadianBoltFan]

Rivers would have been destroyed -- physically -- in the current NFL. QBs must be mobile, and he simply lacked the mobility. Further, while Rivers was smart, he was not always the best at processing and at times devolved to hero throws. I loved Rivers and his release. He threw a very catchable ball. But, talent-wise, Herbert is leagues better. In advanced metrics -- QBR or good old fashioned QB ratings -- Herbert appears better. Rivers had some dreadful QB rating years. Rivers' 2009 and 2013 seasons were amazing -- and there is no telling how Herbert performs at 28 and 32 respectively. Saying that, how awesome is it to be a Chargers fan and comparing Rivers and Herbert. I have to imagine that some teams would love to have just one of those two in their team history.

I brought up the same point. Rivers and his lack of mobility would have a hard time playing QB now. I dont think there is a QB in the league now that runs as poorly as Rivers did.

You also reminded me somthing else about Rivers. You reminded me why he threw more picks than Herbert does. The hero ball thing, He tried to do too much at times and threw up some prayers that killed drives he never should have thrown,