Justin Herbert - Bolts Franchise QB Official Discussion

[CanadianBoltFan]

Rivers' ability to avoid sacks inside the pocket was right up there with Tom Brady's. I'll also note that Brady was never mobile, and he was 43 when he won a Super Bowl with the Buccaneers, after throwing for 4,633 yards, 40 touchdowns, and 12 interceptions during the 2020 regular season. He was 44 the next season, 2021, when he threw for 5,316 yards, 43 touchdowns, and 12 interceptions and led the Bucs to the Divisional Round.

There are plenty of strictly pocket passers in the NFL today doing just fine. Baker Mayfield, Jared Goff, C.J. Stroud, and Sam Darnold are among them. Considering Mayfield has a career-high 39 touchdown passes this season, which to me is absolutely ludicrous for a quarterback of his talent, and Darnold is suddenly a top ten quarterback this year, Rivers in his prime would have done quite well now.

Mayfield scrambles miles better than Rivers. He has more rushing yards than Herbert and Mahomes this year, both QBs who can run.

[DerwinBosa]

Mayfield scrambles miles better than Rivers. He has more rushing yards than Herbert and Mahomes this year, both QBs who can run.

Ugh. You never quit., and get ever more ridiculous. Lol.

Every quarterback, in the history of the NFL, with the exception of Tom Brady and Dan Marino, scrambled better than Rivers.

Baker Mayfield is not a running quarterback. Rivers also evaded pass-rushers in the pocket better than Mayfield could ever dream of.

Perhaps you'll accept the Jared Goff example. He has only 56 yards rushing this season and is one of the top ten quarterbacks in the NFL.

But you can go on thinking that Mayfield can succeed in the current NFL while Rivers in his prime couldn't. Never mind that Rivers was the starting quarterback of a playoff team when he was 39 only four years ago.

[dmac_bolt]

I was pointing out how a higher completion percentage doesn't necessarily mean a quarterback is more accurate than one who has a lower completion percentage. THAT WAS THE POINT, and I drove it home by showing how a much less accurate passer such as Geno Smith currently has a much higher completion percentage than Justin Herbert. You are so sensitive when it comes to Herbert that you miss the point on several occasions.



No, I didn't say he was better because he was tougher. I think Rivers was tougher than Tom Brady and Peyton Manning, too, and I would never say he was better than either of them. (You, on the other hand, told me a few years back that Herbert was better than Patrick Mahomes, which was not true then or now, and probably never will be). I also NEVER said that Herbert is not tough. I said he's one of the toughest quarterbacks currently in the NFL. I'm sorry if that's not good enough for you. Yes, Rivers ultimately proved his toughness by playing one week after tearing his ACL and MCL. Name another quarterback who has ever done that. You can't, because it has never happened, nor will it probably ever happen again. When that happens to every other quarterback, their season is DONE. He risked his career by doing that. As I mentioned before, he also played with serious injuries to his back and ribs in 2014, which most quarterbacks would have sat out the season with. He played through a Lisfranc injury against the Patriots in the 2006 playoffs. He played through a severe turf toe during his final season with the Colts. This has all already been written by me and Boltjolt in his very thread you so strangely decided to slam Rivers in when this same conversation was going on in another thread.



You, yourself, have stated that Norv Turner was made as an offensive coordinator by the Hall of Fame players in Dallas. No one can deny that he sucked as a head coach. So, no, it wasn't a good situation when Norv Turner was hired to replace Marty. Let's put it this way so you can better understand it: after firing Anthony Lynn following the 2020 season, if Spanos had hired a two-time failure as a head coach just because he ran the same offense that Shane Steichen used for Herbert, would you be happy?



No, we're not. Believe it or not, I do like Herbert a lot. I think he's an excellent human being. He's the most physically gifted quarterback we have ever had. I think there are things he needs to improve on, and he needs to accomplish more before I say he's better than Rivers, but I believe it will happen under Harbaugh. But it's debates like this that make me not a fan of quarterbacks in general in this current era. This debate got started in the Patriots game thread because you lost your cool after someone pointed out that Herbert once again overthrew a wide open receiver. Some fans get too emotionally attached to elite quarterbacks on their favorite teams, to the point that they can't handle any criticism about them, even when it's true. You have shown you can't accept any constructive criticism that is directed at Herbert. You seem to be more emotionally attached to Herbert than any other player on this current team--and maybe you are more emotionally attached to him than any other player you have ever rooted for and will ever root for. That's fine, but it gets annoying when people like you can't accept other opinions that don't match yours about Herbert. While I like him a lot, I don't have that emotional attachment to Herbert, and it gets on my nerves when fans put down current or former players to make Herbert look better. There were a handful of people on this forum who blamed Joshua Palmer for Herbert's overthrow in the loss to Kansas City, even though it was clearly Herbert who fucked up. To me, that is unacceptable. My favorite players are obviously Derwin and Bosa (and Joe Alt is getting to be one of my favorite players), but I have absolutely no issue with others providing constructive criticism toward them, like when they point out how Bosa jumps offsides too often (it pisses me the fuck off when he does that), and I would never blame another player for a mistake either of them made. I also wouldn't lose my cool if someone said Leslie O'Neal was better than Bosa (I actually agree with that, even though I like Joey more).

This doesn't happen in only this forum or fan base, by the way. Years ago I got into an argument with a Broncos fan after he said Peyton Manning deserved no blame for Denver's blowout loss to Seattle in the Super Bowl. It's the way the game is presented and watched now. Unfortunately, it's all about the quarterbacks, and the other positions get disrespected, which is why a dominant player such as Patrick Willis didn't get in as a first-ball Hall of Famer and Eli Manning is currently a finalist in his first year of eligibility for the Hall right now.

I can accept any criticism, I accept corrections here all the time. I don’t agree that your arguments prove Rivers was a better QB, that doesn’t mean I can’t accept constructive criticism.

I think you listed a bunch of QBs with higher completion % as evidence Herbert is not accurate, the opposite of what you say now. I remember the seasons Rivers had decent protection and the ones where he had bad protection similar to what Herbie has faced. I remember all of Rivers playoff games, not just the good ones you cherry pick. I remember his first playoff game, in which he played worse than Herbie did in his first. I remember his hero ball when he didn’t have the stacked offenses and how he lost games. I remember the great rosters Rivers had in the 2000’s, and how they were universally rated as the best team or top 3, consistently one of the best teams in the league, good enough to win a string of division titles, yet he won zero trophies in some part (not all) because of his drop in performance in the playoffs.

I know Norv’s offense worked great when he had a HOF RB, HOF TE, and decent OL - which Rivers had to start his career and when Marty begat Norv. When he no longer had those HOF players and good OL, his 7-step dropback offense stunk, the Chargers lost and he got fired. I know switching from Marty+Norv to Norv is much easier than the wholesale systemic offensive changes Herbie has had every year, and not just Herbie but the entire offense. I even know that as bad as Norv was, he was still a better coach than Lynn and Staley ever were or will be.

Way too many apples and oranges for a direct comparison, and they all favored Rivers so far. We will see what Herbie does with a good roster and coaching staff, so far he’s 10-6 with a good coaching staff and still-deficient roster, he’s headed to the playoffs even though the IOL is maybe the worst in the league and he has no WR1, TE1 or RB1. I don’t think Rivers would be 10-6 with the same offense, but who knows. There is no reason to rate Herbie lower based on one playoff game when Rivers first playoff game was worse.

All I know is I watched them both play. I’m not going to question my lying eyes. Herbie is a much better passer and a much better runner by a mile. He makes throws Rivers never could make. He makes gains with his legs Rivers never could make. He is better. I would never trade Herbert for Rivers. But you can believe Rivers was better, and rely on unprovable intangibles like intelligence or toughness, and ignore he never won it with either. we can disagree and be pals at the same time.

[DerwinBosa]

I can accept any criticism, I accept corrections here all the time. I don’t agree that your arguments prove Rivers was a better QB, that doesn’t mean I can’t accept constructive criticism.

I think you listed a bunch of QBs with higher completion % as evidence Herbert is not accurate, the opposite of what you say now. I remember the seasons Rivers had decent protection and the ones where he had bad protection similar to what Herbie has faced. I remember all of Rivers playoff games, not just the good ones you cherry pick. I remember his first playoff game, in which he played worse than Herbie did in his first. I remember his hero ball when he didn’t have the stacked offenses and how he lost games. I remember the great rosters Rivers had in the 2000’s, and how they were universally rated as the best team or top 3, consistently one of the best teams in the league, good enough to win a string of division titles, yet he won zero trophies in some part (not all) because of his drop in performance in the playoffs.

I know Norv’s offense worked great when he had a HOF RB, HOF TE, and decent OL - which Rivers had to start his career and when Marty begat Norv. When he no longer had those HOF players and good OL, his 7-step dropback offense stunk, the Chargers lost and he got fired. I know switching from Marty+Norv to Norv is much easier than the wholesale systemic offensive changes Herbie has had every year, and not just Herbie but the entire offense. I even know that as bad as Norv was, he was still a better coach than Lynn and Staley ever were or will be.

Way too many apples and oranges for a direct comparison, and they all favored Rivers so far. We will see what Herbie does with a good roster and coaching staff, so far he’s 10-6 with a good coaching staff and still-deficient roster, he’s headed to the playoffs even though the IOL is maybe the worst in the league and he has no WR1, TE1 or RB1. I don’t think Rivers would be 10-6 with the same offense, but who knows. There is no reason to rate Herbie lower based on one playoff game when Rivers first playoff game was worse.

All I know is I watched them both play. I’m not going to question my lying eyes. Herbie is a much better passer and a much better runner by a mile. He makes throws Rivers never could make. He makes gains with his legs Rivers never could make. He is better. I would never trade Herbert for Rivers. But you can believe Rivers was better, and rely on unprovable intangibles like intelligence or toughness, and ignore he never won it with either. we can disagree and be pals at the same time.

Minus the emotion he showed in the other thread you were going at it with powderblueboy (whom I have had many disagreements in the past with but not on this one), I should have just followed what he wrote to you (which I copied and bolded below) and stayed away from having this conversation with you. You do miss a lot of points being made, provide misleading information (such as when you compared Herbert's first five years to Rivers' while not acknowledging that Rivers sat his first two seasons), and I don't think you give Rivers credit for much of anything and put him down to make Herbert look better, which is not necessary. Rivers was a great quarterback. Herbert is a great quarterback. Both should be appreciated. I shouldn't have wasted my time trying to explain why I think Rivers was better at the five-year point in his career than Herbert is now, because you and a few others will not accept that someone can reasonably have that opinion--even when they provide valid reasons and facts.

"You are all over the map with this one, and not really responding to any points...I'm done with this argument .... in my mind, Herbert needs to prove himself at least once before any argument even begins."

I'm not expecting a playoff win this season, but hopefully we get at least one next week. If we don't, I won't be discouraged about Herbert because it's only the first year in the Harbaugh regime.

And, yes, I do agree that we can still be pals on this forum.

[BigBad]

People watching the NFL the last 10 years have no idea how DUMBED DOWN the QB position has become. The presnap ability of EVERY QB now SUCKS. Rivers would diagnose EVERY blitz and get the ball out. Herbert SUCKS at this and so does Burrow, Lamar, and Allen. I think this has happened because coaches have taken more on in the play design and have the QB make 1-2 simple reads and then run around because QBs are more mobile. There seem to be fewer and fewer QBs picking up the blitz and moving everyone around. People think Linsley was some world-beater in blocking because we were significantly better when he played. He was calling all the protections and picking up the blitzes.

We have two STUD tackles that can be on islands. If Hebert can't get the other 3 and RB together on blitz pickups better this will be the downfall. And then people will scream about getting better linemen. Yes, that should always be the goal, but nobody will have more than 2 pro bowl-level linemen at a time, so you can't expect that.

[jamrock]

I guess the answer is we need to put Rivers brain in Herbert's body

[dmac_bolt]

Minus the emotion he showed in the other thread you were going at it with powderblueboy (whom I have had many disagreements in the past with but not on this one), I should have just followed what he wrote to you (which I copied and bolded below) and stayed away from having this conversation with you. You do miss a lot of points being made, provide misleading information (such as when you compared Herbert's first five years to Rivers' while not acknowledging that Rivers sat his first two seasons), and I don't think you give Rivers credit for much of anything and put him down to make Herbert look better, which is not necessary. Rivers was a great quarterback. Herbert is a great quarterback. Both should be appreciated. I shouldn't have wasted my time trying to explain why I think Rivers was better at the five-year point in his career than Herbert is now, because you and a few others will not accept that someone can reasonably have that opinion--even when they provide valid reasons and facts.

"You are all over the map with this one, and not really responding to any points...I'm done with this argument .... in my mind, Herbert needs to prove himself at least once before any argument even begins."

I'm not expecting a playoff win this season, but hopefully we get at least one next week. If we don't, I won't be discouraged about Herbert because it's only the first year in the Harbaugh regime.

And, yes, I do agree that we can still be pals on this forum.

You can stop with the ad hominem slaps at me, I don’t care or get mad, but it doesnt work on me and it looks petty. I’m not emotional, i’m perfectly rational. Herbie isn’t my nephew, i don’t see him on holidays, I don’t have a personal emotional attachment to him.

I see what I see and say what I think, I’m not dishonest or disingenuous either. I fully understood Rivers didn’t start his first two years. I never denied it, never hid it, everyone here knew that. I think it’s an important point, thanks for raising it. Rivers sat because a better QB started in front of him. Herbie sat behind a QB for a couple games because his coach that year was an idiot. Maybe you see Rivers sitting for 2 full seasons as a plus. But you don’t seem to factor that Rivers got a huge benefit by sitting 2 years watching and learning a system while Herbie was thrown into the fire pit in, what, his 3rd game? Herbie was OROY, Rivers was not. Herbert had double the stats of Rivers through their first 5 years. Thats all just fact. Coulda woulda shouldas aside, it is what it is. I’d counter your insult to me by saying you are being disingenuous and dishonest by not comparing year 1-5 to year 1-5.

I am not sure what you are even comparing. Are you are comparing Rivers years 3-7 to Herbie’s 1-5 or Rivers entire career to JH 1-5? You really never say. Rivers years 1-2 were a zero, we both agree though differ on the meaning. You can give Rivers credit for not doing anything his first 2 years but i don’t have to. I compared actual years 1-5 and you call that unfair. Thats your opinion.

You seem to consistently compare Rivers entire post-season career to Herbie’s one post-season loss. You ignore every time I reply that Rivers first post-season game was worse despite being on a better team. For two, Rivers post-season career is not stellar, I don’t even get what you are crowing about. But more generally and more importantly, you ignore he had a much better teams for his first 5 years and more stable and consistent coaching and system. That is critically important to assessing a QB. And yet I’m misleading? Lol, ok. We disagree.

Herbert is a better passer and a better runner. That he has not yet done more that Rivers in terms of playoffs is a function of his teams and coaches. He has had a much much worse situation than Rivers 2000’s. It’s really night and day. He doesn’t panic and spaz out like Rivers did when he faced similar adversity on later teams. He doesnt chuck it up for grabs like Rivers began to hero-ball it without superior teams. He throws passes Rivers couldnt dream of throwing regularly. He has +1000 yards on the ground that Rivers couldn’t dream of ever getting.

Rivers had his most similar team to the what Herbie has had every year in 2019. His season was what it was. Rivers is a HOF QB, probably. Herbie will pass him in due time. you can wait to see it before you believe it but that doesn’t make me wrong now. i can wait for history to prove me correct, we don’t have to agree now.

[AKFlyFisher]

Rivers' ability to avoid sacks inside the pocket was right up there with Tom Brady's. I'll also note that Brady was never mobile, and he was 43 when he won a Super Bowl with the Buccaneers, after throwing for 4,633 yards, 40 touchdowns, and 12 interceptions during the 2020 regular season. He was 44 the next season, 2021, when he threw for 5,316 yards, 43 touchdowns, and 12 interceptions and led the Bucs to the Divisional Round.

There are plenty of strictly pocket passers in the NFL today doing just fine. Baker Mayfield, Jared Goff, C.J. Stroud, and Sam Darnold are among them. Considering Mayfield has a career-high 39 touchdown passes this season, which to me is absolutely ludicrous for a quarterback of his talent, and Darnold is suddenly a top ten quarterback this year, Rivers in his prime would have done quite well now.

If Rivers has a prime Nick Hardwick at center, then maybe he is a top 15ish QB in today's NFL without that mobility and given his noodle-arm. Without Hardwick? I think he bounces around, given his hero ball/interception issues and less than ideal arm strength (FYI, Goff, Mayfield, and Stroud are all have far more gifted arm strength than Rivers ever did). Also, you should look at Mayfield's stats. He runs a lot more than you realize. Stroud too. Both have 200 - 300 yards rushing this season. Rivers' best "rushing" season? 102 yards in 2014. QBs have to use their legs more now. In fact, I bet we see the Lions face a playoff conundrum with Goff's lack of mobility -- as without the ability to run, drives are going to stall as things get tighter in the post-season. What makes the Chiefs great? Mahomes' ability to use his legs -- as it wins games.

And Rivers was never in Brady's league. Winning matters. Rivers was great, fiery, and an awesome personality. He had LT and one of the best Chargers O-lines ever, and he didn't really win.

[CanadianBoltFan]

You can stop with the ad hominem slaps at me, I don’t care or get mad, but it doesnt work on me and it looks petty. I’m not emotional, i’m perfectly rational. Herbie isn’t my nephew, i don’t see him on holidays, I don’t have a personal emotional attachment to him.

I see what I see and say what I think, I’m not dishonest or disingenuous either. I fully understood Rivers didn’t start his first two years. I never denied it, never hid it, everyone here knew that. I think it’s an important point, thanks for raising it. Rivers sat because a better QB started in front of him. Herbie sat behind a QB for a couple games because his coach that year was an idiot. Maybe you see Rivers sitting for 2 full seasons as a plus. But you don’t seem to factor that Rivers got a huge benefit by sitting 2 years watching and learning a system while Herbie was thrown into the fire pit in, what, his 3rd game? Herbie was OROY, Rivers was not. Herbert had double the stats of Rivers through their first 5 years. Thats all just fact. Coulda woulda shouldas aside, it is what it is. I’d counter your insult to me by saying you are being disingenuous and dishonest by not comparing year 1-5 to year 1-5.

I am not sure what you are even comparing. Are you are comparing Rivers years 3-7 to Herbie’s 1-5 or Rivers entire career to JH 1-5? You really never say. Rivers years 1-2 were a zero, we both agree though differ on the meaning. You can give Rivers credit for not doing anything his first 2 years but i don’t have to. I compared actual years 1-5 and you call that unfair. Thats your opinion.

You seem to consistently compare Rivers entire post-season career to Herbie’s one post-season loss. You ignore every time I reply that Rivers first post-season game was worse despite being on a better team. For two, Rivers post-season career is not stellar, I don’t even get what you are crowing about. But more generally and more importantly, you ignore he had a much better teams for his first 5 years and more stable and consistent coaching and system. That is critically important to assessing a QB. And yet I’m misleading? Lol, ok. We disagree.

Herbert is a better passer and a better runner. That he has not yet done more that Rivers in terms of playoffs is a function of his teams and coaches. He has had a much much worse situation than Rivers 2000’s. It’s really night and day. He doesn’t panic and spaz out like Rivers did when he faced similar adversity on later teams. He doesnt chuck it up for grabs like Rivers began to hero-ball it without superior teams. He throws passes Rivers couldnt dream of throwing regularly. He has +1000 yards on the ground that Rivers couldn’t dream of ever getting.

Rivers had his most similar team to the what Herbie has had every year in 2019. His season was what it was. Rivers is a HOF QB, probably. Herbie will pass him in due time. you can wait to see it before you believe it but that doesn’t make me wrong now. i can wait for history to prove me correct, we don’t have to agree now.

Herbert actually got thrown in in his 2nd game, told 10 minutes before the start of the game....in a covid year where there was no preseaon and he didnt get a single pre season snap.

No rookie QB has ever been thrown in there quite like that...all he did was go out and throw 300 yards and take the KC Chiefs to overtime

[CanadianBoltFan]

Ugh. You never quit., and get ever more ridiculous. Lol.

Every quarterback, in the history of the NFL, with the exception of Tom Brady and Dan Marino, scrambled better than Rivers.

Baker Mayfield is not a running quarterback. Rivers also evaded pass-rushers in the pocket better than Mayfield could ever dream of.

Perhaps you'll accept the Jared Goff example. He has only 56 yards rushing this season and is one of the top ten quarterbacks in the NFL.

But you can go on thinking that Mayfield can succeed in the current NFL while Rivers in his prime couldn't. Never mind that Rivers was the starting quarterback of a playoff team when he was 39 only four years ago.

I didnt quit because you were trying to make it sound like Baker is a statue. just like Rivers was. He isnt. Maybe watch the next TB game.

[CanadianBoltFan]

I am posting this just for you Derwin Bosa

Your legend of Philip Rivers playing one game ona torn ACL has been topped...by a Canadian Kurtis Rourke just played an entire season on a torn ACL. I guess he is the toughest QB ever seeing as of how you have been saying no other QB would or could EVER play a game with a torn ACL. This guy gutted out a whole season.

https://ca.yahoo.com/sports/news/report-indiana-qb-kurtis-rourke-believed-to-have-played-entire-2024-season-with-re-torn-right-acl-133332977.html

[DerwinBosa]

I am posting this just for you Derwin Bosa

Your legend of Philip Rivers playing one game ona torn ACL has been topped...by a Canadian Kurtis Rourke just played an entire season on a torn ACL. I guess he is the toughest QB ever seeing as of how you have been saying no other QB would or could EVER play a game with a torn ACL. This guy gutted out a whole season.

https://ca.yahoo.com/sports/news/rep...133332977.html

Interesting. I will have to look more into this. Rivers didn't just tear his ACL, though. He also tore his meniscus. TThere are no reports of Rourke tearing his meniscus, as well, but he sure is one tough bastard for doing what he did. He has my respect.

I'm sure you're just thrilled this happened so you could come here and say this means Rivers wasn't tougher than Herbert. Congratulations. Lol .