Justin Herbert - Bolts Franchise QB Official Discussion

[21&500]

Naturally.
Extention of his beef with Jim.

FRS.

[dmac_bolt]

Was one of them named Rivers? No? Oh. Huh.

(Lol - just playin’ with my Riverloving buddies, its all in good fun!)

[dmac_bolt]

Fun facts:

Rivers had 10,000 yards his first 5 seasons. Herbert 20,747 and he’s not done
Rivers had 78 TDs his first 5 seasons. Herbert 135 and he’s not done
Rivers had 2.2 TD/INT ratio his first 5 seasons. Herbert 3.1
Rivers had 160 yards rushing his first 5 seasons. Herbert 1,175

But Rivers was so much better than Herbert, just ignore the stats and for God’s sake don’t watch them both throw the ball or run. Base it all on the fact that Rivers early years were played on the #1 team in the entire AFC (and then go back to ignore that he never won a ring with it).

Give Herbie those teams, and trophies will stack to the ceiling … guaranteed

[DerwinBosa]

Fun facts:

Rivers had 10,000 yards his first 5 seasons. Herbert 20,747 and he’s not done
Rivers had 78 TDs his first 5 seasons. Herbert 135 and he’s not done
Rivers had 2.2 TD/INT ratio his first 5 seasons. Herbert 3.1
Rivers had 160 yards rushing his first 5 seasons. Herbert 1,175

But Rivers was so much better than Herbert, just ignore the stats and for God’s sake don’t watch them both throw the ball or run. Base it all on the fact that Rivers early years were played on the #1 team in the entire AFC (and then go back to ignore that he never won a ring with it).

Give Herbie those teams, and trophies will stack to the ceiling … guaranteed

Not sure why this needed to be carried over here from the other thread that went off course, but a lot of this is misleading or false

Rivers didn't start his first two seasons. That's why he had only 10,000 yards and 78 touchdowns in his first five years in the league. In his first five years as a starter, Rivers had 19,513 passing yards and 135 touchdown passes. During those five years, Rivers had 2,425 passing attempts. Herbert has 2,890 passing attempts so far. Would Herbert have started in 2004 and 2005 under Marty? I doubt it.

Rivers' passer ratings in his first five years as a starter were 92 in 2006, 82.4 in 2007, 105.5 in 2008, 104.4 in 2009, and 101.8 in 2010. Herbert's passer ratings were 98.3 in 2020, 97.7 in 2021, 93.2 in 2022, 93.2 in 2023, and 99.9 so far this season. Rivers' QBR in 2006 was 67.4 in 2006, 54.5 in 2007, 63.2 in 2008, 77.2 in 2009, and 66.9 in 2010. Herbert's QBR was 62.6 in 2020, 70.9 in 2021, 60.2 in 2022, 64.1 in 2023, and 61.8 so far this season.

We were the best team in 2006. We were not the best team in 2007. That was the Patriots. We were not even close to the best team in 2008, as our 8-8 record indicated. We were not the best team in 2009 or anytime after that. You can say all you want that Herbert would have won the Super Bowl with the 2006 team, but he performed like absolute shit in all three of his starts against Belichick's defense, so I'm going to disagree with you there. On the other hand, I think we would have won the Super Bowl with Rivers in 2007 if he had been healthy against the Patriots in the AFC Championship Game. He was very good in the two previous playoff games, and we lost 21-12 to New England when he was playing on only one leg.

Rivers, in my opinion, is the toughest quarterback in NFL history. When you play one week after tearing your ACL and MCL, you deserve that honor. It's not a shot at Herbert to say Rivers was tougher.

At this point in his career, Herbert is not close to as intelligent on the field as Rivers was for most of his career. Herbert has time to get to that level eventually, obviously.

You may not like it that I and others think Rivers was better during his prime years than Herbert has been so far in his career, but there are very valid reasons to think that way.

[CanadianBoltFan]

Not sure why this needed to be carried over here from the other thread that went off course, but a lot of this is misleading or false

Rivers didn't start his first two seasons. That's why he had only 10,000 yards and 78 touchdowns in his first five years in the league. In his first five years as a starter, Rivers had 19,513 passing yards and 135 touchdown passes. During those five years, Rivers had 2,425 passing attempts. Herbert has 2,890 passing attempts so far. Would Herbert have started in 2004 and 2005 under Marty? I doubt it.

Rivers' passer rating in his first five years as a starter was 92 in 2006, 82.4 in 2007, 105.5 in 2008, 104.4 in 2009, and 101.8 in 2010. Herbert's passer rating was 98.3 in 2020, 97.7 in 2021, 93.2 in 2022, 93.2 in 2023, and 99.9 so far this season. Rivers' QBR is 2006 was 67.4 in 2006, 54.5 in 2007, 63.2 in 2008, 77.2 in 2009, and 66.9 in 2010. Herbert's QBR was 62.6 in 2020, 70.9 in 2021, 60.2 in 2022, 64.1 in 2023, and 61.8 so far this season.

We were the best team in 2006. We were not the best team in 2007. That was the Patriots. We were not even close to the best team in 2008, as our 8-8 record indicated. We were not the best team in 2009 or anytime after that. You can say all you want that Herbert would have won the Super Bowl with the 2006 team, but he performed like absolute shit in all three of his starts against Belichick's defense, so I'm going to disagree with you there. On the other hand, I think we would have won the Super Bowl with Rivers in 2007 if he had been healthy against the Patriots in the AFC Championship Game. He was very good in the two previous playoff games, and we lost 21-12 to New England when he was playing on only one leg.

Rivers, in my opinion, is the toughest quarterback in NFL history. When you play one week after tearing your ACL and MCL, you deserve that honor. It's not a shot at Herbert to say Rivers was tougher.

At this point in his career, Herbert is not close to as intelligent on the field as Rivers was for most of his career. Herbert has time to get to that level eventually, obviously.

You may not like it that I and others think Rivers was better during his prime years than Herbert has been so far in his career, but there are very valid reasons to think that way.

Going to have to disagree. Herbert is and will be the best QB in Charger history. By the time Herbert retires, this will not be any debate

Chargers might have only had the best team in the NFL in 2006 but they were very good deep teams in those days, the best run in Charger history, much better than the teams Herbert has played on.

Rivers didnt have 4 OCs in 5 years. He also had an NFL MVP hall of fame RB to give him a running game, something Herbet has rarely had. The Rivers teams had a pretty solid o line led by Hardwick. Herbert has rarely had good protection. Rivers had a soon to be HOF TE. Herbert has never had a good TE,

Their physical talents are not close. Herbert is mobile, Rivers was a statue. Hebert has a better arm

I dont think you can make the case Rivers is tougher than Hebert because he played one AFC Final on a torn ACL. Herbert has had way more injuries than Rivers ever did and has played through every one of them except when he had a broken finger and could not throw the ball. Ever had broken ribs or a serious rib injury? I have and its extruciatingly painful. Couldnt even imagine playing half a football season like that

Herbert won the Academic Heisman and is as smart as any QB you will find.. By the time he is 30, he will be as smart on the field as Rivers ever was. Little harder to have that command when you have had to learn 4 different offenses in your first 5 years. What other QB could have done that while setting the all time NFL record for passing yards in your first 5 years??

I loved Rivers too btw...but during the Rivers years "Chargering" exiisted as much as ever. Those teams Rivers played on should have had at least one SB. I think Herbert gives us our best shot to get a SB win.

[DerwinBosa]

Going to have to disagree. Herbert is and will be the best QB in Charger history. By the time Herbert retires, this will not be any debate

Chargers might have only had the best team in the NFL in 2006 but they were very good deep teams in those days, the best run in Charger history, much better than the teams Herbert has played on.

Rivers didnt have 4 OCs in 5 years. He also had an NFL MVP hall of fame RB to give him a running game, something Herbet has rarely had. The Rivers teams had a pretty solid o line led by Hardwick. Herbert has rarely had good protection. Rivers had a soon to be HOF TE. Herbert has never had a good TE,

Their physical talents are not close. Herbert is mobile, Rivers was a statue. Hebert has a better arm

I dont think you can make the case Rivers is tougher than Hebert because he played one AFC Final on a torn ACL. Herbert has had way more injuries than Rivers ever did and has played through every one of them except when he had a broken finger and could not throw the ball. Ever had broken ribs or a serious rib injury? I have and its extruciatingly painful. Couldnt even imagine playing half a football season like that

Herbert won the Academic Heisman and is as smart as any QB you will find.. By the time he is 30, he will be as smart on the field as Rivers ever was. Little harder to have that command when you have had to learn 4 different offenses in your first 5 years. What other QB could have done that while setting the all time NFL record for passing yards in your first 5 years??

I loved Rivers too btw...but during the Rivers years "Chargering" exiisted as much as ever. Those teams Rivers played on should have had at least one SB. I think Herbert gives us our best shot to get a SB win.

Rivers had MVP LaDainian Tomlinson in 2006 and Tomlinson still in his prime in 2007, which was a bad year for Rivers statistically. Tomlinson got injured against the Colts in the 2007 Divisional Round, after he fumbled, and Rivers took that game over before he tore his ACL and MCL. After the 2007 season, Tomlinson was clearly on the decline, Rivers carried us from 4-8 to 8-8 for a playoff berth in 2008, and Tomlinson did very little for us when we went 13-3 in 2009, leading to Tomlinson's release. Rivers played at a near MVP level in 2010, when Gates missed six games, Vincent Jackson held out for most of the year (he missed 11 games), Malcom Floyd missed five games, and Marcus McNeil missed five games with a holdout. Starting right guard Louis Vasquez also missed six games. Jeromey Clary did start 16 games that year, but he sucked. So, what did Rivers do with all of that against him? He threw for 4,710 yards, 30 touchdowns, and 13 interceptions. We missed the playoffs because we had the worst special teams in NFL history, and Norv Turner failed as a head coach.

We should have won the Super Bowl in 2006, but thanks mostly to Marlon McCree, we failed against the Patriots. We COULD have won the Super Bowl in 2007, but Rivers was playing on one leg and Tomlinson played only one series against the Patriots in the 2007 AFC Championship Game. After 2007, there is no reason for anyone to say we should have won a Super Bowl. The team deteriorated tremendously from 2008 on under Norv Turner. Even in 2009, when we went 13-3, I didn't think we were anywhere close to being the best team in the league. Our horrible running game and run defense were exposed by the Jets in the Divisional Round of the playoffs.

Herbert is definitely more mobile and has a much stronger arm. Rivers was more cerebral and more accurate...so far in Herbert's career.

Rivers was definitely tougher than Herbert. There should be absolutely no question about that, if you're being truthful. In addition to the 2007 AFC Championship Game I mentioned, Rivers also had a bulging disc and rib and chest injuries in 2014, which probably every other quarterback would have sat out the rest of the season with. In a Saturday Night Game against the 49ers late in the year, he looked like he could barely move in the first half, but he led us to a huge comeback in the second half to keep our slim playoff hopes alive. I don't think there's any other quarterback in the history of the NFL who could have done that. In addition to his Lisfranc injury that he suffered in the final regular season game in 2006, Rivers also had more injuries that have since been revealed after his retirement. I can't remember exactly what they were, but they were kept quiet while he was playing. I do recall him playing through a severe turf toe injury with the Colts in 2020. So, no, it's not just the torn ACL and MCL in the 2007 AFC Championship Game, although I don't think there's a chance any other quarterback would have played with that.

There has been just as much "Chargering" in the last five years with Herbert as there was with Rivers over five-year periods, the worst of which was a blown 27-0 lead against the Jaguars in the playoffs. Jacksonville was not even close to the level of team as the Brady/Belichick Patriots, Peyton's Colts or Broncos, the Steelers, etc. Regardless, it's not all about the quarterback, so I don't know why that's being brought up in a discussion when comparing Rivers and Herbert.

While I do believe Herbert will eventually be better than Rivers, especially with Harbaugh as head coach, I think there are plenty of valid reasons to say Rivers was better in his prime than Herbert has been so far.

[CanadianBoltFan]

Rivers had MVP LaDainian Tomlinson in 2006 and Tomlinson still in his prime in 2007, which was a bad year for Rivers statistically. Tomlinson got injured against the Colts in the 2007 Divisional Round, after he fumbled, and Rivers took that game over before he tore his ACL and MCL. After the 2007 season, Tomlinson was clearly on the decline, Rivers carried us from 4-8 to 8-8 for a playoff berth in 2008, and Tomlinson did very little for us when we went 13-3 in 2009, leading to Tomlinson's release. Rivers played at a near MVP level in 2010, when Gates missed six games, Vincent Jackson held out for most of the year (he missed 11 games), Malcom Floyd missed five games, and Marcus McNeil missed five games with a holdout. Starting right guard Louis Vasquez also missed six games. Jeromey Clary did start 16 games that year, but he sucked. So, what did Rivers do with all of that against him? He threw for 4,710 yards, 30 touchdowns, and 13 interceptions. We missed the playoffs because we had the worst special teams in NFL history, and Norv Turner failed as a head coach.

We should have won the Super Bowl in 2006, but thanks mostly to Marlon McCree, we failed against the Patriots. We COULD have won the Super Bowl in 2007, but Rivers was playing on one leg and Tomlinson played only one series against the Patriots in the 2007 AFC Championship Game. After 2007, there is no reason for anyone to say we should have won a Super Bowl. The team deteriorated tremendously from 2008 on under Norv Turner. Even in 2009, when we went 13-3, I didn't think we were anywhere close to being the best team in the league. Our horrible running game and run defense were exposed by the Jets in the Divisional Round of the playoffs.

Herbert is definitely more mobile and has a much stronger arm. Rivers was more cerebral and more accurate...so far in Herbert's career.

Rivers was definitely tougher than Herbert. There should be absolutely no question about that, if you're being truthful. In addition to the 2007 AFC Championship Game I mentioned, Rivers also had a bulging disc and rib and chest injuries in 2014, which probably every other quarterback would have sat out the rest of the season with. In a Saturday Night Game against the 49ers late in the year, he looked like he could barely move in the first half, but he led us to a huge comeback in the second half to keep our slim playoff hopes alive. I don't think there's any other quarterback in the history of the NFL who could have done that. In addition to his Lisfranc injury that he suffered in the final regular season game in 2006, Rivers also had more injuries that have since been revealed after his retirement. I can't remember exactly what they were, but they were kept quiet while he was playing. I do recall him playing through a severe turf toe injury with the Colts in 2020. So, no, it's not just the torn ACL and MCL in the 2007 AFC Championship Game, although I don't think there's a chance any other quarterback would have played with that.

There has been just as much "Chargering" in the last five years with Herbert as there was with Rivers over five-year periods, the worst of which was a blown 27-0 lead against the Jaguars in the playoffs. Jacksonville was not even close to the level of team as the Brady/Belichick Patriots, Peyton's Colts or Broncos, the Steelers, etc. Regardless, it's not all about the quarterback, so I don't know why that's being brought up in a discussion when comparing Rivers and Herbert.

While I do believe Herbert will eventually be better than Rivers, especially with Harbaugh as head coach, I think there are plenty of valid reasons to say Rivers was better in his prime than Herbert has been so far.

Toughness is pretty subjective and hard to quantify that one guy is way tougher than the other. Its a pretty silly argument really, especially when you consider BOTH of these QBs are as tough as any QBs who have played the game

I also dont think Rivers is more acurate. Rivers throws more interceptions. He threw 20 interceptions 3 times and over 15 interceptions 3 other times. I dont think we will ever see Justin Herbert throw 20 interceptions ina season

[Boltjolt]

Not sure why this needed to be carried over here from the other thread that went off course, but a lot of this is misleading or false

Rivers didn't start his first two seasons. That's why he had only 10,000 yards and 78 touchdowns in his first five years in the league. In his first five years as a starter, Rivers had 19,513 passing yards and 135 touchdown passes. During those five years, Rivers had 2,425 passing attempts. Herbert has 2,890 passing attempts so far. Would Herbert have started in 2004 and 2005 under Marty? I doubt it.

Rivers' passer ratings in his first five years as a starter were 92 in 2006, 82.4 in 2007, 105.5 in 2008, 104.4 in 2009, and 101.8 in 2010. Herbert's passer ratings were 98.3 in 2020, 97.7 in 2021, 93.2 in 2022, 93.2 in 2023, and 99.9 so far this season. Rivers' QBR in 2006 was 67.4 in 2006, 54.5 in 2007, 63.2 in 2008, 77.2 in 2009, and 66.9 in 2010. Herbert's QBR was 62.6 in 2020, 70.9 in 2021, 60.2 in 2022, 64.1 in 2023, and 61.8 so far this season.

We were the best team in 2006. We were not the best team in 2007. That was the Patriots. We were not even close to the best team in 2008, as our 8-8 record indicated. We were not the best team in 2009 or anytime after that. You can say all you want that Herbert would have won the Super Bowl with the 2006 team, but he performed like absolute shit in all three of his starts against Belichick's defense, so I'm going to disagree with you there. On the other hand, I think we would have won the Super Bowl with Rivers in 2007 if he had been healthy against the Patriots in the AFC Championship Game. He was very good in the two previous playoff games, and we lost 21-12 to New England when he was playing on only one leg.

Rivers, in my opinion, is the toughest quarterback in NFL history. When you play one week after tearing your ACL and MCL, you deserve that honor. It's not a shot at Herbert to say Rivers was tougher.

At this point in his career, Herbert is not close to as intelligent on the field as Rivers was for most of his career. Herbert has time to get to that level eventually, obviously.

You may not like it that I and others think Rivers was better during his prime years than Herbert has been so far in his career, but there are very valid reasons to think that way.

I posted much on this very things but deleted it. Don't need two of them.

[DerwinBosa]

Toughness is pretty subjective and hard to quantify that one guy is way tougher than the other. Its a pretty silly argument really, especially when you consider BOTH of these QBs are as tough as any QBs who have played the game

I also dont think Rivers is more acurate. Rivers throws more interceptions. He threw 20 interceptions 3 times and over 15 interceptions 3 other times. I dont think we will ever see Justin Herbert throw 20 interceptions ina season

I don't have an issue with Herbert's toughness at all. Rivers was not as tough as any quarterback who has played the game. He was tougher than any other quarterback who played the game. If you don't see it that way, fine.

Rivers was more accurate. Other than his 2019 season, when he was on the decline and shouldn't have been throwing the ball as much as he was, his other high interception years were when he pressed and tried to do too much on poor teams, such as 2011, when we were 4-7 at one point, and 2016, when we went 5-11 and he threw 33 touchdown passes against his 21 interceptions--the year Keenan Allen missed all but one game, Mike McCoy was nearly crying on the sidelines and about to be fired, and Rivers make chicken salad out of chicken feathers (Tyrell Williams and Dontrelle Inman were the leading receivers, and we had a poor running game). I don't recall Rivers missing passes like the ones Herbert has missed (I could be specific with that, but that will just piss people off).

[Boltjolt]

Going to have to disagree. Herbert is and will be the best QB in Charger history. By the time Herbert retires, this will not be any debate

Chargers might have only had the best team in the NFL in 2006 but they were very good deep teams in those days, the best run in Charger history, much better than the teams Herbert has played on.

Rivers didnt have 4 OCs in 5 years. He also had an NFL MVP hall of fame RB to give him a running game, something Herbet has rarely had. The Rivers teams had a pretty solid o line led by Hardwick. Herbert has rarely had good protection. Rivers had a soon to be HOF TE. Herbert has never had a good TE,

Their physical talents are not close. Herbert is mobile, Rivers was a statue. Hebert has a better arm

I dont think you can make the case Rivers is tougher than Hebert because he played one AFC Final on a torn ACL. Herbert has had way more injuries than Rivers ever did and has played through every one of them except when he had a broken finger and could not throw the ball. Ever had broken ribs or a serious rib injury? I have and its extruciatingly painful. Couldnt even imagine playing half a football season like that

Herbert won the Academic Heisman and is as smart as any QB you will find.. By the time he is 30, he will be as smart on the field as Rivers ever was. Little harder to have that command when you have had to learn 4 different offenses in your first 5 years. What other QB could have done that while setting the all time NFL record for passing yards in your first 5 years??

I loved Rivers too btw...but during the Rivers years "Chargering" exiisted as much as ever. Those teams Rivers played on should have had at least one SB. I think Herbert gives us our best shot to get a SB win.

That isn't true. Besides the torn ACL he played on, he had a lis franc injury he played on, had broken ribs for much of a season but I forget what year it was.

We all knew something was wrong with him but the ribs injury wasn't revealed til after the season and he was so banged up he contimplated retirement as our OL was so bad. He has had sprained ankles as well as a back injury. I'm sure I'm missing some that I've forgot about.

To think Rivers didn't have many injuries is ridiculous. He just didn't have as many so early like Herbert has. And he never missed a game. 240 something straight starts.

Who else has EVER played a game the next week after orthroscopic surgery on a torn ACL?

I don't question Herbs toughness, but you are off on Rivers injuries.

You know even today's game isn't as tough as it was back in the 2000s. Brady said he kept playing late because they made it too easy for QBs.

If you can't complete 50-55% of your passes today in the NFl , you aren't good passer .......Indy has a bust for a QB imo.

[CanadianBoltFan]

I don't have an issue with Herbert's toughness at all. Rivers was not as tough as any quarterback who has played the game. He was tougher than any other quarterback who played the game. If you don't see it that way, fine.

Rivers was more accurate. Other than his 2019 season, when he was on the decline and shouldn't have been throwing the ball as much as he was, his other high interception years were when he pressed and tried to do too much on poor teams, such as 2011, when we were 4-7 at one point, and 2016, when we went 5-11 and he threw 33 touchdown passes against his 21 interceptions--the year Keenan Allen missed all but one game, Mike McCoy was nearly crying on the sidelines and about to be fired, and Rivers make chicken salad out of chicken feathers (Tyrell Williams and Dontrelle Inman were the leading receivers, and we had a poor running game). I don't recall Rivers missing passes like the ones Herbert has missed (I could be specific with that, but that will just piss people off).

Rivers is not more accurate. I have already pointed out that Rivers throws alot more interceptions no matter what excuses you come up with. Herbert played ona bad team last year, he threw 7 interceptions, not 20. he played ona bad team as a rookie who didnt even get a pre season and he threw 10 interceptions not 20

Rivers career completion % is 64.9 Herbert's is 66.3 So Rivers has a weaker arm, throws more picks and at a lower completion rate yet you say he is the more accurate QB

Career QB ratings are Rivers 95.2 and Herbert 96.4...very close, but that gap will widen as Herbert had to overcome 4 offences and co-ordinators in first 5 years. Herberts rating numbers will go up as he is at 99.9 this year. You want to compare primes? You cant because at 26 Herbert is just entering his. The best is yet to come.

As I said when this is all said and done there will be no debate.

[DerwinBosa]

Rivers is not more accurate. I have already pointed out that Rivers throws alot more interceptions no matter what excuses you come up with. Herbert played ona bad team last year, he threw 7 interceptions, not 20. he played ona bad team as a rookie who didnt even get a pre season and he threw 10 interceptions not 20

Rivers career completion % is 64.9 Herbert's is 66.3 So Rivers has a weaker arm, throws more picks and at a lower completion rate yet you say he is the more accurate QB

Career QB ratings are Rivers 95.2 and Herbert 96.4...very close, but that gap will widen as Herbert had to overcome 4 offences and co-ordinators in first 5 years. Herberts rating numbers will go up as he is at 99.9 this year. You want to compare primes? You cant because at 26 Herbert is just entering his. The best is yet to come.

As I said when this is all said and done there will be no debate.

They're not excuses. You're equating accuracy with interceptions. Rivers was more of a gunslinger and chance-taker than Herbert. Rivers threw a more catchable and accurate ball. His yards per attempt was consistently higher than Herbert's has been.

Herbert's passer rating may be 1.4 points higher than Rivers for a career, but for some reason you're purposely not taking into account the ratings I posted when Rivers was in the prime of his career. Herbert has never had a passer rating over 100. Rivers did that five times, with a career high of 105.5 (which he did twice). When you compare Rivers' first five years as a starter to Herbert's, Rivers had higher passer ratings three times and a higher QBR four times.

I agree that Herbert will probably end up being better than Rivers. But I do think Rivers was better in 2008 (his fifth season, third as a starter) than Herbert is now (fifth season overall and as a starter). If Herbert hasn't been in his prime by his fifth year as a starter, then he won't have a prime. Most quarterbacks hit their primes when they're in Year Three. Basically, you're wrong, and he has been in his prime for a couple of years.