Play Calling

[BlazingBolt]

wow this is quite the battle in this thread, passion for Chargers football is a beautiful thing

[Critty]

Well, I understand football more than you understand argumentation. The mutually inconsistent points offered by you and some others have been exposed and utterly destroyed.

I literally posted one minute before the game against CIN began about Guyton being open on deep routes and about the alleged failure to block preventing the deep passing game being a BS excuse for not throwing deep (since we did so successfully with the worst OL in all of football last season) after advocating all season for more deep passes in general and especially to Guyton, a deep ball specialist last year who had exactly zero deep ball receptions this entire season coming into Sunday's game.

We then tried exactly what I had been begging us to try doing and it worked in spectacular fashion. One pass, one 44 yard TD--sit down, shut up.

You see, that tends to show that I was right and tends to show it in really spectacular fashion.

What the OP overlooked is that the pass blocking scheme and play design matter when calling deeper passes. Also, the videos posted are not really designed very deep shot plays for the most part and are not mainly what I have been discussing this entire season. It is also clear that Guyton is not the primary target on most of the plays based upon where Herbert is looking. Anyone can see pressure on a video, but why is the pressure happening and what can be done about it? Pressures can happen on long pass plays when the OL is not configured in an intelligent way, can happen when we do not increase our pass protection numbers, and can happen when we do not use techniques to increase the time to throw such as changing Herbert's launch point.

And the fact remains that we are the 6th least pressured team in terms of percentage of pass pressures, so while anyone can find isolated examples, the narrative of pressure being a huge problem for us that is somehow preventing us from doing deep passing plays is largely false. And unless you are going to argue that this year's pass protection is worse than last year's was, there is no effective way to assert that pass protection issues prevent us from throwing deep altogether since we already accomplished the feat with worst OL in the NFL last year.

Think dude!
Short passes as a extension of run game will significantly reduce pressure rates stat and air yards stat.
So your air yards and pressure rates argument is BS. Come on man!. Don't act all smart about Xenos needed to understand arguments when you are clueless and short sighted in how you apply the stat.
Xenos football knowledge and logic is spot on here and he typically has very solid takes.
It's football 101.

Are you going to melt and die if you changed your mind based on Xenos football take? Your not.
It's okay to be wrong in spectacular fashion, admit it and learn something. You really should try it. Unless of course you truly think you will melt away if you do, then those natural survival instinct just cant allow it. You have to be exactly right to survive. It's okay. Maybe next lifetime you can find a way to tuck that in.

[Guest]

Wow. Imaginary world.
Literally mind blowing.
Again saying I was right in spectacular fashion. LOL.
Broken clocks are exactly right twice a day and there is nothing spectacular about it.

Simple elementary level football 101 to understand that pressure rates numbers are not directly tied to how good protection. If you're throwing quicker less air yards that impacts pressure rates significantly. Another argument that falls flat on its face again while delusionally claiming to be exactly right, as you post a wall of fail again. Bravo!

The tape don't lie, but a fan with a desperate need to be right no matter what can Spin A Yarn.

Check the link. Read and learn. Or pretend to be smarter than everyone and dismiss the article as BS. Enjoy!

We had the worst OL in all of football last year and could throw deep effectively, so this pass protection argument is complete horse manure. Unless you are going to argue that our protection is worse this year than last year, the inability to protect argument is a loser for you since we already proved we could do it last year with a much worse OL than what we have this year.

And beyond that, the degree of difference is telling. Three of our OL players had a PFF grade above 80 for the season at last check. That means they should be considered as potential Pro Bowl candidates, not that they suck and cannot pass protect. We have two players that are more marginal in their success rates. But last year, we had all 5 OL players who either completely sucked or who were no better than marginal at best. Our best OL player from last year is our worst OL player this year. It is difficult to miss the degree of upgrade that has taken place. So the pass protection argument just does not work even though I am sure anyone can find highlights from all 32 teams of instances in which pass protection failed.

Further, while I agree that pressure can be reduced by throwing quickly and also agree that we do throw quickly a lot, that is not proof that we cannot pass protect for deep passes as a general proposition as claimed by some.

However, a whole lot of throwing quickly is proof that we do not emphasize "spending time trying to access the deep part of the field" as you previously quoted Staley as saying for the proposition that we are somehow really trying to throw deep passes. You see, when the QB does not look deep and throws very quickly, that is not maximizing spending time trying to access the deep part of the field. In fact, it is the polar opposite of that.

Your discussion of "the tape" is hilarious. First, you look at a few isolated plays as if that meant anything or even if those plays were even the kinds of plays I am discussing (and they are not) and then you fail to make a proper analysis of the video that has been presented. Why was there pressure? What could have been done by design to prevent it? Were any of the plays designed shot plays for Guyton with Guyton as the primary read? When you have the answers to those questions, you can readily see that the tape presented by the OP means just about zero with respect to the points I have been making all season long and that many pundits in the media have come to know as well in recent weeks.

Emphatically, I can scarcely question what could possibly more compelling in terms of an argument in favor of a certain play. I said that we should do "X". We did "X" once, for the first time all season, and it immediately worked for a 44 yard TD. I would say that is pretty damn good evidence that what I have been suggesting just might work. I was quite literally exactly right.

And naturally, the fact that we actually did throw deep successfully proves that pass protection issues do not necessarily prevent us from doing so.

Moreover, the article that you cited discusses some ways in which an OC can offset pressure. That, of course, is one of the points I have been making. There are actual things that an OC can do to limit pressure and allow for deep shots to be taken notwithstanding even having the worst OL in the NFL as we did last year. If we could throw deep with last year's putrid OL, there is no reason why we should not be able to do that this year. In some of the video posted by the OP, I see our OC not doing some of the things he can do to help prevent pressure.

Finally, I am just curious as to where you are in the presentation of inconsistent positions. I have heard here that we cannot throw deep because there are so many pass rushers rushing us. I have heard at the same time that we cannot throw deep because there are so many pass defenders playing way back against us. So, it is kind of like some of you think that opposing defenses are playing with 14 players on the field because so many of them are up close and playing back all at the same time. So that already is enough for me to want to have this thread renamed "the inconsistency thread".

But then Boltjolt comes along and says we really are throwing deep more than just about everyone, taking the inconsistency to a whole new level of mutual exclusivity.

I get the sense that if Lombardi committed and was charged with murder, you would swear that he was at the pub with you at the time of the murder; Xenos would say that he was at the store with him at that time; the OP would say that Lombardi was at his his residence at the time of the murder, and Boltjolt would say that Lombardi does not exist. None of it would be true and you all would be backslapping each other seemingly completely oblivious to the logical issues presented by your assertions.

[Xenos]

Speaking of Stafford, all the deep balls have mysteriously stopped for some reason. I wonder why….

https://www.theringer.com/nfl/2021/12/2/22813161/matthew-stafford-los-angeles-rams-struggles

If we go even deeper, we find that defenses have pretty much taken away the deep shots that had made up a majority of Stafford’s explosive passes over the first two months. As The Ringer’s Ben Solak found after the 49ers loss, defenses had stopped blitzing Stafford, opting instead to drop into deeper zone coverages and forcing him to take shorter options underneath. As a result, Stafford’s average depth of target on shotgun passes has cratered even while his average time to throw has increased.

Stafford’s Shorter Passes From the Gun

1-8	9.1	2.43s
9-12	7.3	2.67s

Data via TruMedia

It’s a phenomenon we’re seeing around the league. The Chiefs and Bills are the most notable examples, but those teams are seeing more two-high zone coverages as a counter to their deep passing concepts. Interestingly, defenses are taking the opposite approach with the Rams and dropping only one safety deep in the middle of the field and getting more bodies in the intermediate areas. That’s where Stafford was destroying defenses in September and October. He’s had no such luck in November, as you can see in his passing maps, via TruMedia:

Now, those second-level defenders are dropping deeper to get in the way of those throw windows, even if it means conceding the underneath throws. Stafford’s completions against single-high coverages have gotten shorter by the month:

[FoutsFan]

We had the worst OL in all of football last year and could throw deep effectively, so this pass protection argument is complete horse manure. Unless you are going to argue that our protection is worse this year than last year, the inability to protect argument is a loser for you since we already proved we could do it last year with a much worse OL than what we have this year.

And beyond that, the degree of difference is telling. Three of our OL players had a PFF grade above 80 for the season at last check. That means they should be considered as potential Pro Bowl candidates, not that they suck and cannot pass protect. We have two players that are more marginal in their success rates. But last year, we had all 5 OL players who either completely sucked or who were no better than marginal at best. Our best OL player from last year is our worst OL player this year. It is difficult to miss the degree of upgrade that has taken place. So the pass protection argument just does not work even though I am sure anyone can find highlights from all 32 teams of instances on which pass protection failed.

Further, while I agree that pressure can be reduced by throwing quickly and also agree that we do throw quickly a lot, that is not proof that we cannot pass protect for deep passes as a general proposition as claimed by some.

However, a whole lot of throwing quickly is proof that we do not emphasize "spending time trying to access the deep part of the field" as you previously quoted Staley as saying for the proposition that we are somehow really trying to throw deep passes. You see, when the QB does not look deep and throws very quickly, that is not maximizing spending time trying to access the deep part of the field. In fact, it is the polar opposite of that.

Your discussion of "the tape" is hilarious. First, you look at a few isolated plays as if that meant anything or even if those plays were even the kinds of plays I am discussing (and they are not) and then you fail to make a proper analysis of the video that has been presented. Why was there pressure? What could have been done by design to prevent it? Were any of the plays designed shot plays for Guyton with Guyton as the primary read? When you have the answers to those questions, you can readily see that the tape presented by the OP means just about zero with respect to the points I have been making all season long and that many pundits in the media have come to know as well in recent weeks.

Emphatically, I can scarcely question what could possibly more compelling in terms of an argument in favor of a certain play. I said that we should do "X". We did "X" once, for the first time all season, and it immediately worked for a 44 yard TD. I would say that is pretty damn good evidence that what I have been suggesting just might work. I was quite literally exactly right.

And naturally, the fact that we actually did throw deep successfully proves that pass protection issues do not necessarily prevent us from doing so.

Moreover, the article that you cited discusses some ways in which an OC can offset pressure. That, of course, is one of the points I have been making. There are actual things that an OC can do to limit pressure and allow for deep shots to be taken notwithstanding even having the worst OL in the NFL as we did last year. If we could throw deep with last year's putrid OL, there is no reason why should not be able to do that this year. In some of the video posted by the OP, I see our OC not doing some of the things he can do to help prevent pressure.

Finally, I am just curious as to where you are in the presentation of inconsistent positions. I have heard that we cannot throw deep because there are so many pass rushers rushing us. I have heard at the same time that we cannot throw deep because there are so many pass defenders playing way back against us. So, it is kind of like some of you think that opposing defenses are playing with 14 players on the field because so many of them are up close and playing back all at the same time. So that already is enough for me to want to have this thread renamed "the inconsistency thread".

But then Boltjolt comes along and says we really are throwing deep more than just about everyone, taking the inconsistency to a whole new level of mutual exclusivity.

I get the sense that if Lombardi committed and was charged with murder, you would swear that he was at the pub with you at the time of the murder; Xenos would say that he was at the store with him at that time; the OP would say that Lombardi was at his his residence at the time of the murder, and Boltjolt would say that Lombardi does not exist. None of it would be true and you all would be backslapping each other seemingly completely oblivious to the logical issues presented by your assertions.

Where you really lose the argument and your case falls apart is that you base throwing deep with pressure alone. If a team is running 2 deep safeties and moving to take away the deep pass you would be wise to not throw the deep pass as often. Why do you think we stopped throwing deep in the second half? (Hint) it wasn't protection. It was the Bungles D dictated to us that we stop throwing deep.

The thing is, if Herbert kept throwing deep into heavy coverage and had a lot of incomplete passes and some interceptions you would be the first in here screaming at Lombardi as to why he was calling plays to force the ball deep. The same type of defense we use to take away long chunk passes can be used against us and often is.

This does not mean that there are no protection issues, only the coverage was dictating what we threw. As a QB I would throw to whoever was open. On a play I had one time, we ran clearing routes by the TE and Flanker with the split end also running a streak to the left. This would draw the safeties deep, the play action drew the LB's in and the play was to hit the FB on a short wheel route to the right in the open space. Well the LB's bit on the play action, the safeties went deep but the corner jumped the FB on the wheel. This left the TE open on a 20 yard fade. I hit the TE for a big gain. If you were to see that play from the stands you would think I was throwing deep when in fact it was a short wheel route by design. I hit who was open and what the defense gave me. I don't want to be snarky about it but when someone has played the sport or at least studied it in depth you see the game different. Things that look one way to the fan look very different to someone who played or coached.

Just like I also played goalie for a long time as a two sport athlete and when I go to hockey games now with my friends, sometimes it is like we are watching two different games. Not to say they are wrong or have bad opinions they just see the game differently. Understand there are probably many people here on this board who have played before and just do not say anything about it but when you read someone else opinion take a second to think about it and do not automatically dismiss it.

[Boltjolt]

This is a rather long winded way of saying that you don’t understand football chaincrusher. It’s okay. This particular sport may be too difficult for even a lawyer like you to understand.

Agree 100%, and where are these bottom 5 Air yards BS? I ve never seen a stat showing that and who gives a shit anyways.

7-5 vs last years 3-9 and top 10 in the league in offense, #2 with 40 plus yard passes and MW tied for #1 with 7 of those. Scoring more PPG than last year with those phantom air yards.

Somebody dont understand the game and team sports.

[Critty]

I get the sense that if Lombardi committed and was charged with murder, you would swear that he was at the pub with you at the time of the murder; Xenos would say that he was at the store with him at that time; the OP would say that Lombardi was at his his residence at the time of the murder, and Boltjolt would say that Lombardi does not exist. None of it would be true and you all would be backslapping each other seemingly completely oblivious to the logical issues presented by your assertions.

Lol! Not even close.
We would say "just look at the tape"

You are claiming we would make a bunch of stuff up.
Sorry, that is your schtick so you can pretend to be exactly right in spectacular fashion.

BoltJolt, Xenos and others have takes that are more context around the stats, the scheme, coverages, protection, reads, execution by players and the other team gets paid too. And what did the tape show for each and every players assignment for both Chargers and opponents on each snap.

Would you mind going over to the Bengals game thread and checking the recent tape that shows how spectacularly wrong you were.

I don't need to make up Palmer arm was hit before ball got there making it technically pass interference and of course disruptive and contested catch to make. Go to the thread and look for yourself.

#CheckTape

[Boltjolt]

Chainy why dont you go to a forum where people want to convict Alec Baldwin. That would be more your speed and actually know what you are talking about there,....i assume anyways....because your schtick ain't working here and your lack of knowledge in the game is on big time display.

Lord help us if we draft a WR and Guyton ends up cut like TBilly.. Well it wont be too bad for me, i turned you off but posters keep quoting you lol.

[Critty]

Chainy why dont you go to a forum where people want to convict Alec Baldwin. That would be more your speed and actually know what you are talking about there,....i assume anyways....because your schtick ain't working here and your lack of knowledge in the game is on big time display.

Lord help us if we draft a WR and Guyton ends up cut like TBilly.. Well it wont be too bad for me, i turned you off but posters keep quoting you lol.

Chainy is using the terms Murder and Teleportation as arguments now in his last couple takes.
it went from annoying to entertaining. What other extremes will be used next. Time travel is my bet.
Going be hard to win against the time travel argument.
LOL!
:LOL:

[Guest]

Where you really lose the argument and your case falls apart is that you base throwing deep with pressure alone. If a team is running 2 deep safeties and moving to take away the deep pass you would be wise to not throw the deep pass as often. Why do you think we stopped throwing deep in the second half? (Hint) it wasn't protection. It was the Bungles D dictated to us that we stop throwing deep.

The thing is, if Herbert kept throwing deep into heavy coverage and had a lot of incomplete passes and some interceptions you would be the first in here screaming at Lombardi as to why he was calling plays to force the ball deep. The same type of defense we use to take away long chunk passes can be used against us and often is.

This does not mean that there are no protection issues, only the coverage was dictating what we threw. As a QB I would throw to whoever was open. On a play I had one time, we ran clearing routes by the TE and Flanker with the split end also running a streak to the left. This would draw the safeties deep, the play action drew the LB's in and the play was to hit the FB on a short wheel route to the right in the open space. Well the LB's bit on the play action, the safeties went deep but the corner jumped the FB on the wheel. This left the TE open on a 20 yard fade. I hit the TE for a big gain. If you were to see that play from the stands you would think I was throwing deep when in fact it was a short wheel route by design. I hit who was open and what the defense gave me. I don't want to be snarky about it but when someone has played the sport or at least studied it in depth you see the game different. Things that look one way to the fan look very different to someone who played or coached.

Just like I also played goalie for a long time as a two sport athlete and when I go to hockey games now with my friends, sometimes it is like we are watching two different games. Not to say they are wrong or have bad opinions they just see the game differently. Understand there are probably many people here on this board who have played before and just do not say anything about it but when you read someone else opinion take a second to think about it and do not automatically dismiss it.

As I have stated, I do not dispute that teams sometimes play defenses to stop the deep passing game. And they play other defenses too. They also cause pressure at times.

But here is the deal. They did that last year also and we still hit deep passes from time to time. To the best of my recollection, Sunday represented the first time we even attempted a designed deep pass to Guyton with Guyton as the primary read.

I do not think that it has been any great mystery since Herbert first started playing that he has a strong arm and can throw deep passes with accuracy.

So I am not buying that defenses have played nothing but deep cover 2 shells against us all season long. We know that that is not Gus's defense, for example. And yet, there were no deep passing plays attempted/completed--zero. I think Staley and some on this forum have oversold that concept to the extreme.

I strongly suspect that we have not been trying to do deep passes for most of this season by design. And that is a great concern when we have a weapon like Herbert. I could not emphasize enough that that is exactly what happened to Lombardi in Detroit as well, so that is not encouraging in that that makes it seem like a Lombardi thing.

Further, it is not like I am asking us to throw a dozen deep passes per game. I think 3 to 4 would be just fine as a realistic goal. Even when teams want to play the deep pass, there are things that can be done to try to create opportunities and there favorable individual matchups even when the coverage is not entirely favorable. But when we are snapping the ball and immediately throwing short as often as we do, we are not trying to make that happen. And what I am seeing is defenses trying to choke down on our short passing game at times and still no deep passes.

Also, on a lesser note, I do not completely agree with what I will refer to as the "inability to see the QB's progression" argument. I think that is usually pretty easy to see in televised NFL games. From the stands, yes, I think you have more of a point. I think it is easy to see when Guyton is the primary option as he clearly was on Sunday on the long pass play where Herbert rolled out, planted, and threw the ball. And it is easy to see when Herbert has looked at three other receivers and then throws against his body to Guyton just before Herbert is forced to run out of bounds with a pass rusher closing on him.

Finally, I assume that people on this forum have an understanding of football and that most of us are not anything close to being mere casual fans. But just like I disagree with the approaches of paid professional NFL coaches at times, I also disagree with the views of some here at times.

[Guest]

Chainy why dont you go to a forum where people want to convict Alec Baldwin. That would be more your speed and actually know what you are talking about there,....i assume anyways....because your schtick ain't working here and your lack of knowledge in the game is on big time display.

Lord help us if we draft a WR and Guyton ends up cut like TBilly.. Well it wont be too bad for me, i turned you off but posters keep quoting you lol.

Boltjolt, are we throwing deep a lot or not? Do you still want to remain on that island by yourself in the face of everyone else trying to explain why we are not throwing deep? You were saying something about lack of football knowledge? LMAO.

[Critty]

Boltjolt, are we throwing deep a lot or not? Do you still want to remain on that island by yourself in the face of everyone else trying to explain why we are not throwing deep? You were saying something about lack of football knowledge? LMAO.

Lol.
Murder, teleportation, islands by yourself, everyone else,....time travel, aliens.
Your ridiculous rhetoric is amusing and undermines any football take you have. Bravo!

It's nice to see you can take comfort in feeling exactly right in spectacular fashion.
:ygdr: