Herbert vs His Peers

[DerwinBosa]

Is Burrow even a top 10 QB? With Brady and Roethlisberger retiring, that leaves Herbert, Allen, Mahomes, Watson, R. Wilson, Jackson, and Rodgers as clearly better QBs than Burrow. In addition, Prescott, Cousins, Murray and Stafford are all also very arguably better than Burrow.

You have to be kidding me. Kirk Cousins should never be in this conversation. Lamar Jackson had 16 touchdown passes and 13 interceptions this season. He struggles to reach 200 passing yards a game. Burrow is definitely better than Dak Prescott, too. We also don't know how good Russell Wilson will be, after coming off of his worst season.

Burrow is a top ten quarterback. He, Herbert, and Allen are three of the top young passers in today's game, and it will be interesting to see how it plays out from here. Hopefully the front office won't make such terrible decisions as keeping Storm Norton at right tackle for the next five years--which is what A.J. Smith did with Jeromey Clary during Rivers' prime.

[RTPbolt]

Yes we are all a little bored sitting on the sidelines but thats what this board is for. Its an interesting comparison.

how about this…Burrow is a good qb. He isnt great but i suppose it depends on what you value. Ive seen throws thrown “with touch” that would scare me if I was a Bengals fan that gave way too much time to opponents DBs to go after it. id probably rate him around 10th give or take a few. Without Chase his numbers fall SIGNIFICANTLY…Chase makes that Offense so much better. Burrow to me is a good “game manager” type and there is nothing wrong with that. Id be happy with Burrow as a qb. Burrow helped them get to the SB but by no means is he the only reason they made it.

Yes Herb does often try to gun a few throws fast but thats also part of his strength that doesnt give DBs time to react to balls too. Speed kills when you can use it properly. Herb to me is similar to Mahomes in he has a lot of WOW plays but as a pure passer. He has a gun and knows how to use it and he is accurate in the pocket and on the run. Herbert is a hell of a lot of fun to watch and THAT is what I love about having him. From game 2 in KC last year I was excited at what he was able to do…its like watching a Michael Jordan type talent that started in his first year. You cant coach that IT factor….shit Lynn didnt even realize what he had at his finger tips. Herbert lets me enjoy the game of football in a different way that isnt all about winning the game. You bet I want the win but its just FUN to watch this kid fight even if there isnt a victory.

Outside of that I hope the Rams win. Id rather not have to listen to those pundits thinking Eli Manning was the better qb than Rivers just because his team had a better D and won 2 SBs despite his pedestrian play. Herbert for President!

[DerwinBosa]

Outside of that I hope the Rams win. Id rather not have to listen to those pundits thinking Eli Manning was the better qb than Rivers just because his team had a better D and won 2 SBs despite his pedestrian play. Herbert for President!

Roethlisberger gets overrated for "his" Super Bowls, too. He had the worst Super Bowl performance for the winning quarterback ever. His playoff numbers also aren't good. The only good performance he had in the AFC Championship Game was when he played the Broncos in 2005. He was pretty bad in "his" other two AFC Championship wins, over the Ravens in 2008 and Jets in 2010. A lot of luck came into effect, too, with Carson Palmer getting injured in the 2005 Wild Card Game the Steelers were going to lose, and Brady suffering a season-ending injury at the beginning of 2008.

Eli chose not to go to San Diego because he knew he couldn't win there. That should say it all, but just look at the Giants' records after Tom Coughlin left. There's no way he or Roethlisberger would have won anything with the Chargers' coaching and front office situations. Just imagine the difference in Roethlisberger's career if the Steelers had fired Bill Cowher following the Steelers' 15-1 season in 2004 and replaced him with Norv Turner.

As for the Burrow and Herbert comparison, I see no reason to dislike Burrow. He was picked first, and for good reason, so it's not like we chose Herbert before him (which I wouldn't have a problem with). I don't see Eli Manning in Burrow, whose playing style reminds me of Joe Montana (who didn't have the strongest arm) and possesses a confidence I love. Herbert's playing style reminds me of John Elway (whom I don't like because he played for the Broncos, but his talents were undeniable), which is cause for tremendous excitement, and I also love Herbert's quiet confidence, total respect for everyone, and sincere modesty. I think these two are going to be outstanding quarterbacks, hopefully for the next 15 to 20 years.

Hopefully this front office puts the right team around Herbert to get him at least one Super Bowl ring, but I cringe when I hear Cris Collinsworth say something to the effect of, "The Chargers want to win with excitement, by throwing the ball up and down the field to Keenan Allen and Mike Williams, and they have just the guy to do it with Justin Herbert. This kid is something special, and the Chargers know they have their superstar to fill seats in Los Angeles." I think Collinsworth was speaking for the Spanos family, which has no idea how to build a championship-caliber football team, and most likely doesn't really care all that much to.

[dmac_bolt]

A. They're in the same Draft Class so comparisons will always be made.

B. Burrow is going to the Superbowl and We're Bored as shit around here during our off season!

:hello:

This, plus Tua sucks so bad he doesn’t make the thread. The Great 3QB class is turning out to be those 2. Its Manning/Rivers/Rapesburger part deux, minus the raper.

[dmac_bolt]

You have to be kidding me. Kirk Cousins should never be in this conversation. Lamar Jackson had 16 touchdown passes and 13 interceptions this season. He struggles to reach 200 passing yards a game. Burrow is definitely better than Dak Prescott, too. We also don't know how good Russell Wilson will be, after coming off of his worst season.

Burrow is a top ten quarterback. He, Herbert, and Allen are three of the top young passers in today's game, and it will be interesting to see how it plays out from here. Hopefully the front office won't make such terrible decisions as keeping Storm Norton at right tackle for the next five years--which is what A.J. Smith did with Jeromey Clary during Rivers' prime.

Cousins is the modern Jay Cutler. Born loser. Burrow is 100% legit top 10 imo. I also see no reason to dislike him. I dislike Mahomey. I love Luck - wish we could play against him for a decade.

Rapesburger and Manning both had defenses win the SB for them. Rapesboy had horrible SBs, he also had the refs give him the one vs SEA. Worst officiated SB in history.

[Guest]

You have to be kidding me. Kirk Cousins should never be in this conversation. Lamar Jackson had 16 touchdown passes and 13 interceptions this season. He struggles to reach 200 passing yards a game. Burrow is definitely better than Dak Prescott, too. We also don't know how good Russell Wilson will be, after coming off of his worst season.

Burrow is a top ten quarterback. He, Herbert, and Allen are three of the top young passers in today's game, and it will be interesting to see how it plays out from here. Hopefully the front office won't make such terrible decisions as keeping Storm Norton at right tackle for the next five years--which is what A.J. Smith did with Jeromey Clary during Rivers' prime.

Burrow finished with a bottom 10 INT% this season and also finished in the bottom 5 in sack percentage surrendered because he habitually holds the ball too long. The guy has the best group of top 3 WRs in the NFL and he still has these struggles.

Prescott and Cousins combined threw fewer INTs than Burrow this season. Cousins had one less TD than Burrow and Prescott had three more. While Burrow finished in the bottom 10 in INT%, Cousins finished second to Aaron Rodgers and Prescott finished 8th. Prescott has produced a lower INT% than Burrow did this year in each of his last 4 seasons. Cousins has produced a lower INT% than Burrow did this year in each of his last 7 seasons. The comparison made by another poster between Cousins and Cutler does not hold water. Cutler was specifically known as an INT machine. Cousins is not.

Lamar Jackson did struggle with INTs this year (one of the few veteran QBs that was actually worse than Burrow in that respect), but he also finished 12th in rushing yards per game and had a tremendous 5.8 YPC on 133 attempts over 12 games played. Jackson rushed for more yards per game than Ekeler did. Burrow, of course, also finished with a high INT rate and offers virtually nothing in the running game. This is the only season in which Jackson has had a higher INT% than Burrow did this season. Jackson, of course, has a league MVP award to his credit.

Wilson finished 4th in lowest INT%. He continues to be a threat in the running game when he needs to be. In 10 seasons, Wilson has never finished with as high of an INT% as Burrow had this season.

It is unclear what you are looking at, but what I see is that Herbert, Rodgers, Allen, Mahomes, Watson, Jackson and Wilson are clearly better than Burrow by a significant margin. There really is no question about that. As I said, Murray, Prescott, Cousins and Stafford are all arguably better than Burrow. Those QBs are closer to where Burrow is. If three of those last 4 are better than Burrow, which may well be the case, then Burrow is not a top 10 QB.

Herbert and Allen are physical studs. Burrow cannot make the throws that Herbert and Allen can make, cannot run the ball as effectively as either Herbert or Allen, and cannot escape pass rushes as effectively as either Herbert or Allen, which really matters a lot with Burrow holding the ball too long at times. Basically, Burrow simply does not belong in the same group as Herbert and Allen.

[Guest]

Cousins is the modern Jay Cutler. Born loser. Burrow is 100% legit top 10 imo. I also see no reason to dislike him. I dislike Mahomey. I love Luck - wish we could play against him for a decade.

Rapesburger and Manning both had defenses win the SB for them. Rapesboy had horrible SBs, he also had the refs give him the one vs SEA. Worst officiated SB in history.

Burrow was 100% legit top 10 in highest QB INT%. And when he was not throwing INTs, he was at times holding the ball too long, which led to him being in the top 5 in percentage of the time being sacked.

I named the QBs that I believe are clearly better than Burrow and the others that I believe are arguably better than Burrow. Whether or not Burrow is in the top 10 depends on how many of those that are arguably better than Burrow are deemed at the end of the day to be better than Burrow.

[Guest]

Yes we are all a little bored sitting on the sidelines but thats what this board is for. Its an interesting comparison.

how about this…Burrow is a good qb. He isnt great but i suppose it depends on what you value. Ive seen throws thrown “with touch” that would scare me if I was a Bengals fan that gave way too much time to opponents DBs to go after it. id probably rate him around 10th give or take a few. Without Chase his numbers fall SIGNIFICANTLY…Chase makes that Offense so much better. Burrow to me is a good “game manager” type and there is nothing wrong with that. Id be happy with Burrow as a qb. Burrow helped them get to the SB but by no means is he the only reason they made it.

Yes Herb does often try to gun a few throws fast but thats also part of his strength that doesnt give DBs time to react to balls too. Speed kills when you can use it properly. Herb to me is similar to Mahomes in he has a lot of WOW plays but as a pure passer. He has a gun and knows how to use it and he is accurate in the pocket and on the run. Herbert is a hell of a lot of fun to watch and THAT is what I love about having him. From game 2 in KC last year I was excited at what he was able to do…its like watching a Michael Jordan type talent that started in his first year. You cant coach that IT factor….shit Lynn didnt even realize what he had at his finger tips. Herbert lets me enjoy the game of football in a different way that isnt all about winning the game. You bet I want the win but its just FUN to watch this kid fight even if there isnt a victory.

Outside of that I hope the Rams win. Id rather not have to listen to those pundits thinking Eli Manning was the better qb than Rivers just because his team had a better D and won 2 SBs despite his pedestrian play. Herbert for President!

Burrow is no significant part of the reason why the Bengals made the Super Bowl. Burrow did nothing against TEN (Bengals won in spite of his poor play) and barely did anything against KC. Both opponents just gave the game to CIN with their critical mistakes and by failing to capitalize on Burrow's mistakes.

[dmac_bolt]

Burrow was 100% legit top 10 in highest QB INT%. And when he was not throwing INTs, he was at times holding the ball too long, which led to him being in the top 5 in percentage of the time being sacked.

I named the QBs that I believe are clearly better than Burrow and the others that I believe are arguably better than Burrow. Whether or not Burrow is in the top 10 depends on how many of those that are arguably better than Burrow are deemed at the end of the day to be better than Burrow.

No idea what your re talking about with Mr INT? Here are some actual Burrow Stats:

#6 - Pass Yards
#2 - Rating (starters)
#8 - TDs

he had 14 INTs which is one less than Justin Herbert, against his 34 TDs. Mahomes had 13.

Ill definitely agree Chase is a beast and he’s very lucky to have him. I recall this forum laughing heartily at Cindy for not taking the LT at the time, some were certain it was the firing ticket for the FO and Burrow would be killed again

[Guest]

No idea what your re talking about with Mr INT? Here are some actual Burrow Stats:

#6 - Pass Yards
#2 - Rating (starters)
#8 - TDs

he had 14 INTs which is one less than Justin Herbert, against his 34 TDs. Mahomes had 13.

Ill definitely agree Chase is a beast and he’s very lucky to have him. I recall this forum laughing heartily at Cindy for not taking the LT at the time, some were certain it was the firing ticket for the FO and Burrow would be killed again

Regarding Herbert, Mahomes and Burrow, here is the part that you are missing. Herbert did throw one more INT than Burrow, but he also attempted 152 more passes than Burrow. Similarly, Mahomes attempted 138 more passes than Burrow. Again, Burrow was in the bottom 10 in INT rate. Herbert and Mahomes were not.

Regarding QB rating and passing yards, Burrow's receivers led the NFL in yards after the catch per pass attempt, which aided both Burrow's passing yards and QB rating, which incorporates yards per attempt. So, Burrow is getting extra credit for plays made by others more so than any other QB.

With a loaded group of WRs, Burrow did put up good TD numbers and deserves credit for that, but that credit needs to be put into proper perspective (.i.e., in a setting with a loaded supporting cast at WR).

On the issue of whether or not Burrow is a top 10 QB, I think it is clear that Herbert, Allen, Mahomes, Watson, Jackson, Rodgers and Wilson are all significantly better than Burrow. That alone drops Burrow to no better than 8th overall.

I have also said that Stafford, Murray, Prescott and Cousins are arguably better than Burrow, which is to say that I believe that these QBs and Burrow all belong in the same tier of QBs. Within this tier, I think there can be fair debate about how these QBs stack up against each other as they have different strengths and weaknesses. That is why I phrased it as a question and not as a statement regarding whether or not Burrow is a top 10 QB. If Burrow is ranked 4th or 5th in the group, he is not a top 10 QB. If he is ranked first, second or third, he is a top 10 QB--albeit just barely.

Finally, CIN's OL, while not good, is also underrated. For the past two seasons, their OL has been getting blamed for the sacks that opponents have had. Some of that is deserved. But, as Burrow himself has previously admitted, one of his weaknesses is that he holds the ball too long and does not take advantage of opportunities to throw the ball away. He is also not very mobile--the slowest of the 12 QBs I have named in my posts in this thread. Not mobile and not throwing the ball away is not a good combination.

The extra unnecessary sacks surrendered actually help Burrow's passer rating (versus throwing the ball away), but hurt his team and represent poor QB play.

[DerwinBosa]

Burrow finished with a bottom 10 INT% this season and also finished in the bottom 5 in sack percentage surrendered because he habitually holds the ball too long. The guy has the best group of top 3 WRs in the NFL and he still has these struggles.

Prescott and Cousins combined threw fewer INTs than Burrow this season. Cousins had one less TD than Burrow and Prescott had three more. While Burrow finished in the bottom 10 in INT%, Cousins finished second to Aaron Rodgers and Prescott finished 8th. Prescott has produced a lower INT% than Burrow did this year in each of his last 4 seasons. Cousins has produced a lower INT% than Burrow did this year in each of his last 7 seasons. The comparison made by another poster between Cousins and Cutler does not hold water. Cutler was specifically known as an INT machine. Cousins is not.

Lamar Jackson did struggle with INTs this year (one of the few veteran QBs that was actually worse than Burrow in that respect), but he also finished 12th in rushing yards per game and had a tremendous 5.8 YPC on 133 attempts over 12 games played. Jackson rushed for more yards per game than Ekeler did. Burrow, of course, also finished with a high INT rate and offers virtually nothing in the running game. This is the only season in which Jackson has had a higher INT% than Burrow did this season. Jackson, of course, has a league MVP award to his credit.

Wilson finished 4th in lowest INT%. He continues to be a threat in the running game when he needs to be. In 10 seasons, Wilson has never finished with as high of an INT% as Burrow had this season.

It is unclear what you are looking at, but what I see is that Herbert, Rodgers, Allen, Mahomes, Watson, Jackson and Wilson are clearly better than Burrow by a significant margin. There really is no question about that. As I said, Murray, Prescott, Cousins and Stafford are all arguably better than Burrow. Those QBs are closer to where Burrow is. If three of those last 4 are better than Burrow, which may well be the case, then Burrow is not a top 10 QB.

Herbert and Allen are physical studs. Burrow cannot make the throws that Herbert and Allen can make, cannot run the ball as effectively as either Herbert or Allen, and cannot escape pass rushes as effectively as either Herbert or Allen, which really matters a lot with Burrow holding the ball too long at times. Basically, Burrow simply does not belong in the same group as Herbert and Allen.

I think you're in complete denial about Burrow being an outstanding quarterback. Would I trade Herbert for him? No. But if I were a Bengals fan I wouldn't trade Burrow for Herbert. You can nitpick all the stats you want that favor Herbert. Bengals fans can do the same for Burrow, who had a higher completion percentage than Herbert (70.4 to 65.9) and a much higher yards per attempt (8.9 to 7.5). You mention Burrow holds onto the ball too long. He has a worse offensive line in front of him than Herbert does.

I'll set aside the ridiculousness of bringing Kirk Cousins into this discussion, but how can you possibly say Lamar Jackson is a clearly better quarterback than Burrow.? Look at the stats this season. Jackson started only 11 games and had one fewer interception than Burrow threw in 16 starts. Jackson has been absolutely horrendous in the postseason, the worst being when he had home-field advantage against the Titans two years ago.

Allen and Herbert have more physical talent than nearly any quarterback who's ever played the position. That doesn't necessarily mean they're better than Joe Montana, Tom Brady, Johnny Unitas, or any other all-time great who didn't have a cannon or the mobility Allen and Herbert possess. It doesn't necessarily mean they are superior to Burrow. As far as what you claim is Burrow's inability to escape a rush, I think you're putting too much emphasis on the Titans game and weren't paying attention when he fought away from Jones in the AFC Championship Game at a very crucial time.

[Guest]

I think you're in complete denial about Burrow being an outstanding quarterback. Would I trade Herbert for him? No. But if I were a Bengals fan I wouldn't trade Burrow for Herbert. You can nitpick all the stats you want that favor Herbert. Bengals fans can do the same for Burrow, who had a higher completion percentage than Herbert (70.4 to 65.9) and a much higher yards per attempt (8.9 to 7.5). You mention Burrow holds onto the ball too long. He has a worse offensive line in front of him than Herbert does.

I'll set aside the ridiculousness of bringing Kirk Cousins into this discussion, but how can you possibly say Lamar Jackson is a clearly better quarterback than Burrow.? Look at the stats this season. Jackson started only 11 games and had one fewer interception than Burrow threw in 16 starts. Jackson has been absolutely horrendous in the postseason, the worst being when he had home-field advantage against the Titans two years ago.

Allen and Herbert have more physical talent than nearly any quarterback who's ever played the position. That doesn't necessarily mean they're better than Joe Montana, Tom Brady, Johnny Unitas, or any other all-time great who didn't have a cannon or the mobility Allen and Herbert possess. It doesn't necessarily mean they are superior to Burrow. As far as what you claim is Burrow's inability to escape a rush, I think you're putting too much emphasis on the Titans game and weren't paying attention when he fought away from Jones in the AFC Championship Game at a very crucial time.

I am not in denial of anything. If by outstanding, you mean elite, Burrow is not outstanding. He just isn't. I think he is definitely in the top 12 QBs, so he is above average at this point. If Burrow's OL is not as good as ours, he should want to throw the ball sooner, not later. That said, CIN's OL gets blamed in part because Burrow holds onto the ball too long at times.

The Cousins versus Burrow comparison is actually a close call and not in any way ridiculous. Among the QBs discussed, Cousins is the most similar to Burrow as they are the two least athletic of the QBs being discussed. That you or anyone else would think that the comparison is ridiculous just goes to show both how underrated Cousins is and how overrated Burrow is. This year, Burrow had slightly better gross production, but his INT percentage was way worse, which represents the single biggest difference between the players this year (bottom 10 for Burrow, 2nd overall for Cousins).

Your Jackson hater status is duly noted. After 12 games this season, Burrow actually had a higher INT rate than Burrow, throwing one more INT on three fewer attempts. The difference is that Burrow got to play 4 more games and Jackson did not. The other huge difference, of course, is that Jackson is the best running QB in the NFL and Burrow offers very little in the running game. Burrow probably is a slightly better passer than Jackson (with far superior receiving options at his disposal), but he is not 10% of the runner that Jackson is. If I am a DC, I am far more concerned about having to defend Jackson than I am about having to defend Burrow. Jackson has been a league MVP. Burrow is not likely ever to be one.

I agree that the fact that Herbert and Allen are athletically far superior to Burrow does not guarantee that they are better than Burrow. However, the repeated throws and runs they make that Burrow could only dream of being able to make, coupled with outstanding production does make them better than Burrow and not just by a tiny margin either. There is a significant gap there.

Outside of Bengals fans and a few Burrow homer pundits, nobody is taking Burrow over Herbert or Allen. That's just silly.